Isaac and Abraham

[Dilettante]

The terrible dilemma of Abraham has haunted countless thinkers in history, the most famous of them being probably Danish philosopher Sören Kierkegaard. But I bet everyone--that is, except those who never had a belief in the Abrahamic God--has wondered how he or she would act in a situation where God tells you to kill an innocent, perhaps your only child. This is perhaps the most difficult question for believers. I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham (and please remember Abraham didn't know it was just a test) and that anyone who killed his own son today and told the police he had just followed God's orders would rightly be put in a mental institution for life.
I, for one, could not kill an innocent person (let alone one of my children) even if God told me to. What about the rest of forum members?

[BAD_BRAD]

This is Probably the best topic I've ever debated. I belive that when got had talked to Abraham was a maricle and God doesn't express him self in miracles anymore so if you did here somebody say that they are God and they asked you to kill somebody then I know a few sicologist that can help you with you skensafrinia

[Cathar1950]

I am trying to bracket the story from its development origins and times.
But it is hard to do and still make any sense of it.
It seems to me that righteousness in the case of Job or Abraham does not seem to be about good and evil. God simply demands obedience and if it seems to please him you are righteous in his eyes or the believers.
Even Satan according to a Satanist would think his god is good to him and for him.
In the story of Job Satan is one of the sons of god or one of the gods who's job it is to accuse, test and spy while he caries out orders from the godly court.

But modern thinking has come a long way with a whole different mythology.
It the thinking of the people that give us these stories. God seems to be rather short tempered and demanding as well as limited.
God is good does seem to be self-referencing. Everything that is good is from God and evil comes from some place else. For the storytellers God was the source of all, both good and evil. Sins were placed on whole peoples from generation to generation at God’s whim as well as his favor.
I always found it interesting that the gods tell him to sacrifice his people but an angel of YHWH stops him who for Abraham would have been El the father of YHWH. Later they are blended together with the attributes and stories of Baal. YHWH even gets their spouse until she is removed completely from the concept of God, which is now unknowable, missing, and beyond while maintaining his controlling features.

So what if God told him to sacrifice his son and Satan stopped him or Satan told him to sacrifice and God stopped him? We know who is who because a later story YHWH tells Moses he was know as El. The Christian use of the story is a whole different matter.

I have even read one theory that has the Lord, the judge of all the, as a pharaoh that also has that title, get Sarah pregnant and comes to claim him as his son. It was weird but interesting.
Of course there seems to be child sacrifices all the way up to the exile. Royalty, or priests did most of course, and even some was done in the name of YHWH.
I go to go the kids just said am playing trivial pursuit.

[Righteous Indignation]

I am trying to bracket the story from its development origins and times.
But it is hard to do and still make any sense of it.
It seems to me that righteousness in the case of Job or Abraham does not seem to be about good and evil. God simply demands obedience and if it seems to please him you are righteous in his eyes or the believers.
Even Satan according to a Satanist would think his god is good to him and for him.
In the story of Job Satan is one of the sons of god or one of the gods who's job it is to accuse, test and spy while he caries out orders from the godly court.

But modern thinking has come a long way with a whole different mythology.
It the thinking of the people that give us these stories. God seems to be rather short tempered and demanding as well as limited.
God is good does seem to be self-referencing. Everything that is good is from God and evil comes from some place else. For the storytellers God was the source of all, both good and evil. Sins were placed on whole peoples from generation to generation at God’s whim as well as his favor.
I always found it interesting that the gods tell him to sacrifice his people but an angel of YHWH stops him who for Abraham would have been El the father of YHWH. Later they are blended together with the attributes and stories of Baal. YHWH even gets their spouse until she is removed completely from the concept of God, which is now unknowable, missing, and beyond while maintaining his controlling features.

So what if God told him to sacrifice his son and Satan stopped him or Satan told him to sacrifice and God stopped him? We know who is who because a later story YHWH tells Moses he was know as El. The Christian use of the story is a whole different matter.

I have even read one theory that has the Lord, the judge of all the, as a pharaoh that also has that title, get Sarah pregnant and comes to claim him as his son. It was weird but interesting.
Of course there seems to be child sacrifices all the way up to the exile. Royalty, or priests did most of course, and even some was done in the name of YHWH.
I go to go the kids just said am playing trivial pursuit.

It seems to me your trying too hard to make sense of something that is nonsense. It’s like trying to understand the book "Alice in Wonderland". I’m sure if we look hard enough it will all start to make sense. Our minds are good at making connections and finding patterns, even when none exist. You can look at any puffy cloud and eventually see a dragon, a rocket ship or maybe even Donald Duck. It’s fun to imagine they are real but they’re not. Religious people often enjoy imaging random events as acts of God. I guess what I’m trying to say is be careful in trying too hard to understand something that’s just random BS eventually you will make a connection but it won’t be real.

The lesson of Abraham and his son, if there is a lesson, is simple. The Bible here as in many other places is stating: Obey Authority! It makes no difference if what is being asked is right or wrong. So if you are a soldier and your commander orders you to kill a whole village of innocent people, you should do it. If your a slave and your master tells you to steal the neighbors goat, you should do it. If your a child and your priest asks you to drop your pants, you should do it.

[Cathar1950]

I am trying to bracket the story from its development origins and times.
But it is hard to do and still make any sense of it.
It seems to me that righteousness in the case of Job or Abraham does not seem to be about good and evil. God simply demands obedience and if it seems to please him you are righteous in his eyes or the believers.
Even Satan according to a Satanist would think his god is good to him and for him.
In the story of Job Satan is one of the sons of god or one of the gods who's job it is to accuse, test and spy while he caries out orders from the godly court.

But modern thinking has come a long way with a whole different mythology.
It the thinking of the people that give us these stories. God seems to be rather short tempered and demanding as well as limited.
God is good does seem to be self-referencing. Everything that is good is from God and evil comes from some place else. For the storytellers God was the source of all, both good and evil. Sins were placed on whole peoples from generation to generation at God’s whim as well as his favor.
I always found it interesting that the gods tell him to sacrifice his people but an angel of YHWH stops him who for Abraham would have been El the father of YHWH. Later they are blended together with the attributes and stories of Baal. YHWH even gets their spouse until she is removed completely from the concept of God, which is now unknowable, missing, and beyond while maintaining his controlling features.

So what if God told him to sacrifice his son and Satan stopped him or Satan told him to sacrifice and God stopped him? We know who is who because a later story YHWH tells Moses he was know as El. The Christian use of the story is a whole different matter.

I have even read one theory that has the Lord, the judge of all the, as a pharaoh that also has that title, get Sarah pregnant and comes to claim him as his son. It was weird but interesting.
Of course there seems to be child sacrifices all the way up to the exile. Royalty, or priests did most of course, and even some was done in the name of YHWH.
I go to go the kids just said am playing trivial pursuit.

It seems to me your trying too hard to make sense of something that is nonsense. It’s like trying to understand the book "Alice in Wonderland". I’m sure if we look hard enough it will all start to make sense. Our minds are good at making connections and finding patterns, even when none exist. You can look at any puffy cloud and eventually see a dragon, a rocket ship or maybe even Donald Duck. It’s fun to imagine they are real but they’re not. Religious people often enjoy imaging random events as acts of God. I guess what I’m trying to say is be careful in trying too hard to understand something that’s just random BS eventually you will make a connection but it won’t be real.

The lesson of Abraham and his son, if there is a lesson, is simple. The Bible here as in many other places is stating: Obey Authority! It makes no difference if what is being asked is right or wrong. So if you are a soldier and your commander orders you to kill a whole village of innocent people, you should do it. If your a slave and your master tells you to steal the neighbors goat, you should do it. If your a child and your priest asks you to drop your pants, you should do it.

.
I have no argument. I think you are right on with out having to deal with a bunch of pet ideas about God, religion, and superstitions. I think "obey" is the message left from what was once an interesting story and fictions. But it was finished after human sacrifices were no longer tolerated or observed.

[Cogitoergosum]

I am trying to bracket the story from its development origins and times.
But it is hard to do and still make any sense of it.
It seems to me that righteousness in the case of Job or Abraham does not seem to be about good and evil. God simply demands obedience and if it seems to please him you are righteous in his eyes or the believers.
Even Satan according to a Satanist would think his god is good to him and for him.
In the story of Job Satan is one of the sons of god or one of the gods who's job it is to accuse, test and spy while he caries out orders from the godly court.

But modern thinking has come a long way with a whole different mythology.
It the thinking of the people that give us these stories. God seems to be rather short tempered and demanding as well as limited.
God is good does seem to be self-referencing. Everything that is good is from God and evil comes from some place else. For the storytellers God was the source of all, both good and evil. Sins were placed on whole peoples from generation to generation at God’s whim as well as his favor.
I always found it interesting that the gods tell him to sacrifice his people but an angel of YHWH stops him who for Abraham would have been El the father of YHWH. Later they are blended together with the attributes and stories of Baal. YHWH even gets their spouse until she is removed completely from the concept of God, which is now unknowable, missing, and beyond while maintaining his controlling features.

So what if God told him to sacrifice his son and Satan stopped him or Satan told him to sacrifice and God stopped him? We know who is who because a later story YHWH tells Moses he was know as El. The Christian use of the story is a whole different matter.

I have even read one theory that has the Lord, the judge of all the, as a pharaoh that also has that title, get Sarah pregnant and comes to claim him as his son. It was weird but interesting.
Of course there seems to be child sacrifices all the way up to the exile. Royalty, or priests did most of course, and even some was done in the name of YHWH.
I go to go the kids just said am playing trivial pursuit.

It seems to me your trying too hard to make sense of something that is nonsense. It’s like trying to understand the book "Alice in Wonderland". I’m sure if we look hard enough it will all start to make sense. Our minds are good at making connections and finding patterns, even when none exist. You can look at any puffy cloud and eventually see a dragon, a rocket ship or maybe even Donald Duck. It’s fun to imagine they are real but they’re not. Religious people often enjoy imaging random events as acts of God. I guess what I’m trying to say is be careful in trying too hard to understand something that’s just random BS eventually you will make a connection but it won’t be real.

The lesson of Abraham and his son, if there is a lesson, is simple. The Bible here as in many other places is stating: Obey Authority! It makes no difference if what is being asked is right or wrong. So if you are a soldier and your commander orders you to kill a whole village of innocent people, you should do it. If your a slave and your master tells you to steal the neighbors goat, you should do it. If your a child and your priest asks you to drop your pants, you should do it.

.
I have no argument. I think you are right on with out having to deal with a bunch of pet ideas about God, religion, and superstitions. I think "obey" is the message left from what was once an interesting story and fictions. But it was finished after human sacrifices were no longer tolerated or observed.

I could not agree more, there is no moral or ethics in the bible.

[melikio]

The only time that "killing" makes sense to me (at all), is when it's related to "survival" (food, self defense). I would definitely defend myself (or another) if I needed to; I'm surely not a violent person, but I do know how to fight/kill. (Honestly, I wish I didn't need to know; but such is the reality in which we live.)

Other than that, I'd say that 'my' faith doesn't support the idea of God asking me to "kill" someone or something. The weapons/tools of spiritual people are "spiritual"; I believe that to the core of my being and it is directly related to the value I place upon LOVE (as Jesus taught and illustrated it).

-Mel-