Is Judaism Racist?

[earendil]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

[JoeyKnothead]

Please give me one verifiable case of wholesale Jewish 'racism' in the past couple hundred years.

[Cathar1950]

Please give me one verifiable case of wholesale Jewish 'racism' in the past couple hundred years.

Maybe some strange form of Zionism but they have been discriminated against for 2000 years and the last century was full of antisemitism.
I would even think the anti-Jewish Bias of the late first and second centuries of the Romans shows up in the NT.

[cnorman18]

I am not going to bother with what we agree but I don’t necessarily disagree with everything else either. I think we need to be clear that your beliefs or way of life doesn’t speak for all Jews or the histories of Jews.

I have never claimed that they did. As I have often said, I specifically do not speak for the Orthodox, but for modern liberal Jews. Even so, much of what I say here does apply to all Jews.

Many Orthodox, for instance, do believe in the literal truth of many Biblical stories; but they still do not take them in the same way as fundamentalist Christians. They may believe in the Eden story, for instance, but not in Original Sin; they may believe that the massacres associated with Joshua's conquest of Canaan happened (few modern Jews do), but not that they were moral or justifiable acts.

All the ancient peoples felt their gods loved them and punished then as well as fought their wars for them.

So they, and we, did.

Do we still?

Who exactly is “we�?

Jews, of course.

Some do, some don’t.

Some Jews still believe that God loves us and fights our wars for us?

After 1933-1945?

Are you serious?

When the returning Jews came back they forced fellow Jews to get rid of their foreign wives and families. Is that racist or just elitist?

I have written elsewhere about the propriety and fairness of judging Judaism by Scriptural narrative without consulting Jewish tradition and teaching about those accounts.

So you don’t think it happened or is it you think something else?
As a people of their books it seems some Jews did feel this way. At least the writers did.

Feel what way?

That this happened, or that it was a good and righteous thing?

(Are you getting this yet?)

Whether or not it happened doesn't matter much to us.

What it means does.
What Jews of 2,000 years ago thought doesn't much matter to us either. We get to change, in our religion. We're supposed to.

I think it is far to say it is there and if all Jews have outgrown such notions that are just fine with me. I am glad they got over it, now if the Christian could just learn.

Now maybe you're getting it.

Does one judge the Greek people of today by drawing conclusions from events reported in the Iliad? Those events are much more recent.

The writings were not written that far apart as I would place the Torah after Solomon and all the way to Ezra. Much of it was developed between 900 and 500, when was the Iliad written?

I didn't say the Iliad was written more recently. I said the events reported in the Iliad were much more recent.

Exodus, 15th century BCE. Trojan War, 8th century BCE.

Now if the Greeks still looked at the Iliad as their book and what it means to be a Greek along with “consulting Jewish Greek tradition and teaching about those accounts� you might have some unspecified point but I hardly see where it is relevant.

You have it backwards. It's not about what the Greeks think of the Iliad or what Jews think of the OT. The fact that no one is looking at how we Jews actually do look at our Bible is rather my point.

It's that other people, such as yourself, look at the OT and make judgments about the Jews of today.

Who looks at the Iliad and says, "Well, those Greeks must still think their gods speak to them directly and the best negotiation tactic is a spear through the eye"?

See? That's what non-Jews are doing here with the Hebrew Bible. No one would think of doing that with the Iliad, but with the Bible, it's taken for granted that we still read it today as we did when it was written.

We don't. Ask us. We'll tell you. I'll tell you, and I have been.

Alternatively, is it fair or proper to assume that we Jews routinely lie about our beliefs to Gentiles? That seems to be implicit in all the criticisms on this thread.

You mean they quit eating children?
Of course I don’t think it is proper or true. I am referring to your above statement not the eating of Children.

?

Sorry, I don't get the joke.

I keep saying that Jews don't teach or believe that we are superior, no matter what the Bible says. Right?

Others keep telling me, "Yes, you do" - and try to prove it from the Bible.

Would you accept that argument from a fundamentalist?

If not, why do you make it yourself?

[Confused]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

MODERATOR ACTION:

As this thread is nothing but rantings and opinions with nothing debatable that is not inflammatory, attacking, and well, as you stated, rude with no due cause, I am moving it to RR. Next time, I would suggest that when you start at thread, you don't include anything like:

Don't even bother to respond,

....

I would also remind you that personal attacks are against forum rules and I would suggest you find ways to start threads that are productive and civil.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Please give me one verifiable case of wholesale Jewish 'racism' in the past couple hundred years.

Palestine.

35 years of 'illegal' occupation and ethnic cleansing.



Below are two simple points. One an occurrence of racial cleansing, the other, well, it shows a continued pattern of the same in the forming and occupation of the state of Israel.

Of course, there is more, but as you only asked for one, I thought that two would do for a start.


http://www.deiryassin.org/


UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992

1. Resolution 106: "...‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...‘recommends’ Israel suspend its ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "...‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "...‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "...‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "...‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation"
13. Resolution 259: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon’
31. Resolution 444: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...‘determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ‘serious obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...‘calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel’s settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...‘calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the council’s order not to deport Palestinians"
39. Resolution 471: "...‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "...‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claims to Jerusalem are ‘null and void’
41. Resolution 478: "...‘censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law’
42. Resolution 484: "...‘declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...‘decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...‘demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...‘censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...‘demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...‘condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...‘strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
55. Resolution 605: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...‘calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...‘deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...‘deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.


If you'd like some more let me know.

[Cathar1950]

The OT says no such thing or anything like it. In Jewish tradition, the standards are higher for Jews than for non-Jews. We have 613 commandments; you guys have seven. If it turns out that we ARE talking about who gets into Heaven, Gentiles will have an easier time of it than we will. We don't get preferred seating.

The standards are higher for jews? How can you write this and not realize the intrinsic racism you are promoting?

In all the religions in the world, only in judaism can you be born so. If that is not racism, then what is?

Don't even bother to respond, because you will only make excuses.....and if you don't see the intrinsic racism of your above comments, then you are sick beyond repair.

Sorry..I don't mean to be rude...but sometimes hard situations require hard words.

I don't think he was racist even if he did come across as if the Jews were the standard and everyone else has less of a standard. I am sure by "higher" he doesn't mean that the Jews are superior, more advanced, privileged, and that everyone else is inferior, less advanced, less privileged, and lower; I think he must mean quantity where they have 613 laws for Jews and "they" have only a couple for others or Paul's sinners(gentiles). Of course they seem behind the times for even the Persian times. When you think how many laws there are in the USA or even one state. Makes 613 seem rather simple.


Higher Standards ? I think you misspoke, not that there hasn't been genocidal attitudes but hell everyone did that, they usually didn't let their enemies live unless they were useful or to numerous or powerful. Then there is the silly reforms where they are told to send away their foreign wives and families. There are always those zealous ones.
It did come across funny.

[JoeyKnothead]

Please give me one verifiable case of wholesale Jewish 'racism' in the past couple hundred years.

Palestine.

35 years of 'illegal' occupation and ethnic cleansing.



Below are two simple points. One an occurrence of racial cleansing, the other, well, it shows a continued pattern of the same in the forming and occupation of the state of Israel.

Of course, there is more, but as you only asked for one, I thought that two would do for a start.


http://www.deiryassin.org/


UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992

1. Resolution 106: "...‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...‘recommends’ Israel suspend its ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "...‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "...‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "...‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "...‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation"
13. Resolution 259: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon’
31. Resolution 444: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...‘determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ‘serious obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...‘calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel’s settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...‘calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the council’s order not to deport Palestinians"
39. Resolution 471: "...‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "...‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claims to Jerusalem are ‘null and void’
41. Resolution 478: "...‘censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law’
42. Resolution 484: "...‘declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...‘decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...‘demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...‘censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...‘demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...‘condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...‘strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
55. Resolution 605: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...‘calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...‘deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...‘deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.


If you'd like some more let me know.

Such are the spoils of war. A nation taking ground to better secure its borders, and its citizens is hardly a case for racism.
As to the many UN resolutions, I see none that express a concern over racism.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Such are the spoils of war. A nation taking ground to better secure its borders, and its citizens is hardly a case for racism.

G'day Joeyknuccione.

Would you also apply that to the Germans during WWI & WWII ???

What difference do you see between what is happening in the illegally occupied Palestinian territories and Apartheid in South Africa ???

BISHOP DESMOND TUTU, the South African Nobel Prize winner, described how he saw his visit to Israel "much like what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about".

Maybe you have a different definition of what constitutes racism ???

Maybe for you it isn't racism because you have labelled it "war" instead ???

Which of course leads back to the original question that I asked in this post.


Here's another case of racism for you ...

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, September 1999, pages 19-20

Special Report

Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs

By Maureen Meehan

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,� “rioters,� “suspicious,� and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

“The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as ‘robbers,’ ‘bloodthirsty,’ and ‘killers,’� said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

continued here ..... http://www.washington-report.org/backis ... 09019.html


Would you like some more examples ???

[cnorman18]

As I have said before, and on multiple occasions:

The policies and practices of the State of Israel are not determined by, nor exemplary of, the tenets of the Jewish religion.

First; the majority of Israeli Jews are secular and have no interest in Judaism as a religion.

Second: The religious authorities in Israel have very limited influence on the State; their influence is confined to determining Government policy on marriage and divorce (and even that is waning; most secular and modern Jews object to their control of that area).

Third, the religious authorities that do exist in Israel are entirely Orthodox in nature. I do not and have never claimed to speak for the Orthodox. Modern liberal Judaism is all but nonexistent in Israel. There are more "Messianic," i.e., Christian, synagogues in Israel than there are of my own movement, the Conservative.

The topic of this thread is "Is Judaism Racist?" It is not "Is Israel Racist?"

Israeli politics and policies are irrelevant to the topic question. That is all I have to say on the matter. I come here to discuss religion, not politics.

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day Cnorman18.

Isis - Ra - El, three deities, that, when contracted, form the word Israel.

Funny that religion and politics are joined together in so many ways. Discussing one without the other is short sighted in the least.

But that's okay, if you'd like to hold onto your beliefs that they are separate, then simply don't post in a discussion that involves politics and that way you won't be discussing politics. Simple huh.