The Fall of Adam

[harvey1]

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned– for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." (Romans 5:12-14)

Assuming the age of the earth is older than 10,000 years, please tell me the meaning of this scripture since it says that 'death' came into the world by sin. How can death come by sin if dying of animal life and other hominids came prior to when Adam would have lived (i.e., as a conscious intelligent modern human).

[YEC]

harvey, you can say what you want, but the bible is clear...man was made from the dust....not an animal.

Eve was made from Adams rib...not an animal.

Adam was made first, then LATER on woman was made...this is not what evolution teaches.

It's there in black and white...no need to add evolutionary words between the lines.

[harvey1]

you can say what you want, but the bible is clear...man was made from the dust....not an animal.

Adamah (life) was made and then the animals were made from the adamah. The bible is very clear on this point.

Eve was made from Adams rib...not an animal.

It wasn't a rib, it was some kind of cellular structure.

Adam was made first, then LATER on woman was made...this is not what evolution teaches.

Adamah was without division in sex and then later something was became female (i.e., in Hebrew: 'Neqebah' for female which literally means 'pricked off') and adamah was then male and female (Gen.5:2). The female was secondary since it was pricked off. Perhaps the chromosomes were originally X-Y and then after this event they were X-Y and X-X chromosomes?

It's there in black and white...no need to add evolutionary words between the lines.

You can cast off the cornerstone of biology if you want, but I think it prevents you from seeing the beauty and simplicity in God's creation.

[YEC]

harvey1]

you can say what you want, but the bible is clear...man was made from the dust....not an animal.

Adamah (life) was made and then the animals were made from the adamah. The bible is very clear on the point you are trying to make.

You'll need to explain how the bible is very clear on this point...seems like every scholar except you has missed this very clear point.
You'll need to explain how Adamah equals life.

One thing for sure...the bible is not very clear on this point.

Eve was made from Adams rib...not an animal.

It wasn't a rib, it was some kind of cellular structure.

Call it what you want. if you look up the word in the Hebrew dictionary you get...rib. but as I said, call it what you want, the "cellular structure" came from within the living beings Adams body and was then used to form Eve...which as I mentioned earlier is definately not evolution....any way you look at it.

Adam was made first, then LATER on woman was made...this is not what evolution teaches.

Adamah was without division in sex and then later something was became female (i.e., in Hebrew: 'Neqebah' for female which literally means 'pricked off') and adamah was then male and female (Gen.5:2). The female was secondary since it was pricked off. Perhaps the chromosomes were originally X-Y and then after this event they were X-Y and X-X chromosomes?

The bible tells us Adam was made a male. GEN 1:27..I fail to see the logic behind this...non male-non female creation...AKA, Adam, husband of Eve.

Just for the record, I looked up the word female in the Hebrew dictionary (strongs 5344)...and your meaning of the word was not there....I'm not sure where you got the "pricked off" from..

It's there in black and white...no need to add evolutionary words between the lines.

You can cast off the cornerstone of biology if you want, but I think it prevents you from seeing the beauty and simplicity in God's creation.
How have I cast off the cornerstone of biology?

[harvey1]

You'll need to explain how the bible is very clear on this point...seems like every scholar except you has missed this very clear point. You'll need to explain how Adamah equals life. One thing for sure...the bible is not very clear on this point.

God took adamah material and breathed the breath of life and it turned into chah nephesh (that's Hebrew for life).

It wasn't a rib, it was some kind of cellular structure.

Call it what you want. if you look up the word in the Hebrew dictionary you get...rib. but as I said, call it what you want, the "cellular structure" came from within the living beings Adams body and was then used to form Eve...which as I mentioned earlier is definately not evolution....any way you look at it.

It doesn't say how God took the cellular structure from the adamah life to divide the life into male and female.

The bible tells us Adam was made a male. GEN 1:27..I fail to see the logic behind this...non male-non female creation...AKA, Adam, husband of Eve.

It talks about male and female in general terms of humanity. However, Gen. 2 is talking about the generations of earth where the evolutionary history is being discussed.

Just for the record, I looked up the word female in the Hebrew dictionary (strongs 5344)...and your meaning of the word was not there....I'm not sure where you got the "pricked off" from..

Sorry. Check the word origin 1409. The word 'female' comes from 'naqab' which means to break off. Sorry abt that.

It's there in black and white...no need to add evolutionary words between the lines.

You can cast off the cornerstone of biology if you want, but I think it prevents you from seeing the beauty and simplicity in God's creation.

How have I cast off the cornerstone of biology?

[YEC]

harvey, I checked. 1409 is gad. Which comes from the word 1464, guwd

5344 is naqab.

Now 5347 is female "neqebah" and the word used in Genesis as female....and my dictionary says it means, female.

[YEC]

It doesn't say how God took the cellular structure from the adamah life to divide the life into male and female.

What?

Here's what my bible says

GEN 2:21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.

GEN 2:22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

GEN 2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."

The 3 verses above says there was man...you present Adam as some sort of sexless being. That concept is not supported in the scriptures.
It also says God made woman from a rib...or cellular structure...as you put it.

Of course when you read the third verse it is clear that the "celluar structure" was made up of bone. You know, a rib.

[harvey1]

I checked. 1409 is gad. Which comes from the word 1464, guwd 5344 is naqab. Now 5347 is female "neqebah" and the word used in Genesis as female....and my dictionary says it means, female.

Sorry, I was referring to TWOT's number, not Strong's. In any case, the reason I mention the primitive root for female is that it provides a means to understand the Hebrew etymology, and hence it reconciles evolution with the biblical account.

GEN 2:21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.

GEN 2:22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

GEN 2:23 The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man."

The 3 verses above says there was man...you present Adam as some sort of sexless being. That concept is not supported in the scriptures.

The Hebrew word 'adam' also means reddish or ruddy. This makes sense since it is a root of the word 'adamah' which means 'ground'. The Hebrew word for 'dust' (as in 'dust of the ground') is 'aphar which indicates a clay-like substance. Thus, it is easy to gather that the phrase "formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his face the breath of life" can simply be rendered "formed the red clay of earth and breathed into it the breath of life". This kind of interpretation strikes me as more valid since 'ruddy' and 'clay', 'adam' and 'adamah' all fit like a glove.

However, I'm not suggesting that 'man' is not implied in the Genesis 2/3 account. Rather, I'm saying that account is consistent with evolution since Adam is seen as the 'first ancestor' and that first ancestor is identified with life born from clay. This is entirely consistent with evolutionary processes.

Also, that's not to say that the reference to Adam does not itself develop as the story develops. For example, look at how the chronology in time can be compatible with evolution:

vs. 4: The chapter is introduced as being about the evolution of earth, so we should understand right from the get go that we are talking about a progression of events that lead up to the present epoch.

vs. 5-6: The 'mist' that is being referred to here is compatible with a description of the early earth where there was no rain and no life, just a steam that arose from the molten earth (i.e., prior to the oceans formed there was a vaporized atmosphere)

vs. 7: The origin of our ancestor (adam) from earth materials is of course the context of evolution

vs. 8: The cluster of life in a garden is what one should expect for life to evolve early on. We see this kind of 'garden effect' in even the most hostile of environments where life clusters around a source of energy (e.g., 'a river of Eden'). The 'eastward of Eden' can easily be translated as 'beginning in paradise'. For our ancestor (adam) living in the hostile world, this location would be an Edenic paradise.

vs. 11-14: We see the river of life start to channel the evolution of life to all remote places in the earth. This 'river of life' theme is picked up in Rev. 22:1 and that it symbolizes all life coming from God and the Lamb and watering the whole world with life. This is entirely consistent with the history of life in evolutionary terms (vs. 4) since life began with God's breathing life into inorganic earth and seeing it carried throughout the world as a river of life.

vs. 15 Our ancestor (adam) again moves into a central role as not only just living off the earth, but it is assigned a role to dress and keep it. I'm not sure what that means in terms of the earth's history, but it implies that our ancestor continued to play a central role in the prosperity of all life. That's an anthrocentric way of looking at our role, but this is what Genesis suggests of the role that our ancestors played in the history of life.

vs. 21 Our ancestor (adam) becomes a multicellular organism, and the origins of sex and eventually family become part of our biological profile. From that point forward, our adam (ancestor) is divided into a male and female component.

Chapter 3: We move into more modern times when humans emerged and free will and moral choices became cognitively possible.

[YEC]

harvey:
vs. 21 Our ancestor (adam) becomes a multicellular organism, and the origins of sex and eventually family become part of our biological profile. From that point forward, our adam (ancestor) is divided into a male and female component.

You've gotta be kidding

There is no way that anyone can come up with that interpretation and be serious.
I don't know how to reply to such a disconnect and writing between the lines like you have done. Going from a fully formed man as presented in Genesis to a multicellular organism?????

For starters..the bible is not that difficult....I'd love to see your explanation of the resurrection.

[harvey1]

vs. 21 Our ancestor (adam) becomes a multicellular organism, and the origins of sex and eventually family become part of our biological profile. From that point forward, our adam (ancestor) is divided into a male and female component.

You've gotta be kidding There is no way that anyone can come up with that interpretation and be serious. I don't know how to reply to such a disconnect and writing between the lines like you have done. Going from a fully formed man as presented in Genesis to a multicellular organism????? For starters..the bible is not that difficult....I'd love to see your explanation of the resurrection.

It's not that difficult at all. Let me post the chapter as it should be translated...

"This is the evolution of the earth and surrounding heavens, when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the surrounding heavens and the earth: 5 And every plant of the adamah before it sprung up in the earth, and every herb of the adamah before it grew: for the Lord God had not rained upon the earth; and there was not an adam to structure the adamah. 6 but steam went up from the earth, and watered the whole surface of the adamah 7 And the Lord God formed adamic clay of the adamah: and breathed into the face of it the breath of life, and the adamic ancestor became a living animal.

8 And the Lord God had planted a garden of delight from the beginning: wherein he placed the primitive adamic ancestor whom he had formed. 9 And the Lord God brought forth of the adamah all manner of stromatolite tree-like structures, fair to behold, and pleasant to eat of: the tree of life also in the midst of paradise: and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 10 And a water current went out of the place of pleasure to water paradise, which from thence is divided into four heads. 11 The name of the one is Phison: that is it which compasseth all the land of Hevilath, where gold groweth. 12 And the gold of that land is very good: there is found bdellium, and the onyx stone. 13 And the name of the second river is Gehon: the same is it that compasseth all the land of Ethiopia. 14 And the name of the third river is Tigris: the same passeth along by the Assyrians. And the fourth river is Euphrates. 15 And the Lord God took the primitive adamic ancestor, and put it into the garden of delight, to serve it and to preserve it.

16 And he commanded it, saying: Of every tree of paradise thou shall eat: 17 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat. For in the day you eat of it, you will have a finite existence.

18 And the Lord God said: It is not good for the adamic ancestor to exist without a reproductive partner: let us make it a succor. 19 And the Lord God having formed out of the same adamah (as this particular adamic ancestor) all the creatures of nature, and all the flying creatures of the air, brought them to the adamic ancestor to see their function coded in a DNA structure: for whatsoever this DNA (adamic) ancestor coded any living creature the same is its function in the wild. 20 And the DNA adamic ancestor coded all the creatures by their function, even the flying creatures of the air, and all the living things of nature: but for the adamic ancestor there was not found a succor

21 Then the Lord God cast a deep haitus upon the adamic ancestor's evolution: and when the adamic ancestor was in a frozen state, God took one of its cellular structures, and closed up the animal's flesh. 22 And the Lord God built from the cellular structure which he took from the adamic ancestor and made a female of the species: and joined the female to the adamic ancestor. 23 And the adamic ancestor internally felt: "This now is substance of my substance, and body of my body; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of adam". 24 Wherefore adam shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. 25 And they were both naked: Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed".

It makes perfect sense to me...

[YEC]

Interesting harvey....according to your little story...the fall in the garden happened prior to the existance of mans evolution.....in evo terms, millions of years prior.

According to you..because some multi-celled organism went against God..mankind needs salvation?

I'm lost.