Science vs Science

[Creed]

I was so sick and tired of scientists talking about the impossible to prove God did not exist, so I thought, they're using fire so why can't I? This thought process was developed by me during a period of meditation and constant reasoning. My thoughts started to wander by them selfs, like someone took my hand and was showing me the truth, unimportant. I will use metaphors that you can easily understand so i can get my point across quickly, I have to write a paper tonight. Here I go.. proving God exists in 1000 words or less.

The first concept you must understand is that through freewill you have an unlimited amount of choices. Do to the amount of degrees in a circle and the number of pi, we can conclude an unlimited amount of choices we have to move our hand at any one time. To accept this one fact is to accept that you have an unlimited amount of choices. Yes your choices are limited to the ones you are aware of, but you chose to be aware of a certain selection from infinity.

Where does this go you may ask? Luckily I had some guidance..

Now the metaphor.. Your brain is like a computers hard drive in that it has a finite amount of storage capacity before it reaches full. Now to understand this you have to understand how a computer works. A computer has information.. choices.. but a finite amount of them.. and would be impossible to program infinite amount of choices into a finite object as each choice programed would require room and compile to infinity. Therefore you can say that you can not create AI, you can only simulate AI. Since we have the infinite amount of choices as expressed in step 1 we can conclude that our consciousness does not exist within our body, but rather I would suggest it exists in a form that coincides with the universe simply because there is an infinite amount of space. (Please don't argue there is an end to the universe because you could not describe it, vi save there cant be nothing outside of it.) At this point in my article it is futile to describe to you where the consciousness lies, but I can assure you I have proven it is not in your body, to contradict this reasoning is to be just as ignorant as atheists argue Christians are.

And so we approach the subject of God..
How do I know he exists? The answer is simple, a program can not write itself. -the writer must of understood infinity and could define it.

What is he? A consciousness that understands and can define infinity. If you could understand infinity within the confines of your consciousness I believe you could break reality and mold it.

What do I hope of achieving after writing this? nothing much, just really really needa start my essay so I gotta stop typing. I will leave you here, accept reason or not, the choice is now on your end of the table.

Welcome to reason.

[Goat]

I'm so lost...

Seems like people are arguing about technology too much. What does that have to do with us living breathing huamns. Our brian is nto a computer, it is a brain. It's very very different.

I'm so lost on your concept. Any more guidance you can give me?

yes, I'm sorry for skipping steps of my reasoning process, but I would have to write a book if I where to type them all out. Our brain has a finite amount of space for storage just like a computers hard drive, and for a computer to make a choice it has to chose between set options, assuming that you wrote a program to make it chose. Randomization programs work because they use like the first 150 numbers in Pi, but are not infinite. Hence to program the ability to chose between an infinite amount of choices you would need infinite space. Does that help?

My robot arm was an analog feedback loop. I could add a thermal noise random number generator to that robot arm and it could then get free will in that when it came to deciding to move the arm or not it could freely decide to not move it or move it based on if a noise spike hit the rotate command.

The rotation is chosen by the noise spike, not the arm itself, it has no consciousness it can only react, there in lies the difference. Your random noise generator would be based of Pi if im correct, but would not be infinite, just random, HUGE difference.

If you read all the posts so far I have overridden all contradictions, would anybody now agree with me?

No, not at all. Not one little bit. Plus, even if you were correct (which are aren't... that wouldn't PROVE god anyway..

[Creed]

lol Goat, this requires a higher level of thinking than simply "this rock is hard." If you are proven to have unlimited choices then it is proven that your consciousness can not exists within your body, according to our argument thus far I am correct. That alone is a breakthrough is it not? I'm current;y working on arguing the first step in the thought process, it leads to God later.

[byofrcs]

lol Goat, this requires a higher level of thinking than simply "this rock is hard." If you are proven to have unlimited choices then it is proven that your consciousness can not exists within your body, according to our argument thus far I am correct. That alone is a breakthrough is it not? I'm current;y working on arguing the first step in the thought process, it leads to God later.

1) A computer program can be made to have an unlimited number of choices and choose just one.

2) Same as a human brain. We can decide out of an infinity of possible positions for our wrist, just one position.

You have not yet shown that the program in 1) is any different from 2).

We can assume you are not studying CS else you would understand bruteforce verses rainbow tables as a tradeoff between storage and time.

The human doesn't make instantaneous decisions but responds to stimuli and has a very poor positioning compare to a modern machine tool. Whereas a good industrial robot should be able to position a tool to 0.1 mm accuracy a human end effector (your hand) would barely keep a tool still within 10 times that.

[OpenedUp]

lol Goat, this requires a higher level of thinking than simply "this rock is hard." If you are proven to have unlimited choices then it is proven that your consciousness can not exists within your body

How do you come to that conclusion (that the conciousness is outside the body if we have infintie choices)?

So does everyone share one conscious?

How do you prove that we have an infinite amount of choices? We only have the choices that lie within our own domain.

[Creed]

1) A computer program can be made to have an unlimited number of choices and choose just one.

2) Same as a human brain. We can decide out of an infinity of possible positions for our wrist, just one position.

You have not yet shown that the program in 1) is any different from 2).

We can assume you are not studying CS else you would understand bruteforce verses rainbow tables as a tradeoff between storage and time.

The human doesn't make instantaneous decisions but responds to stimuli and has a very poor positioning compare to a modern machine tool. Whereas a good industrial robot should be able to position a tool to 0.1 mm accuracy a human end effector (your hand) would barely keep a tool still within 10 times that.

in response to #1, no it can't your lying and there is no way to backup the argument without saying the impossible exists.

care to venture a guess as to why? sure thing.. if you let a computer program chose a decimal from a coordinate plane of existence then it can only chose a number that is within its own memory compacity, i.e. each decimal place would take up room, therefor if a computer was to chose an angle, it could never chose an angle with more decimal places then its memory can hold. We can do this however, its called free will even if we are unaware of exactly the number of the angle we chose, we still chose it.

I'm not quite sure Openedup, I'm willing to listen to you if you have any ideas about it. Technically we could all be "a part" of God as the "Bible" talks about, but there is no way to tell for sure what you can not prove. You can prove that it can not exist in the body because each choice would take up space in your memory, since you have infinite amounts of choices, each choice taking up a bit more of your memory, they can not be programed into a finite amount of space, i.e. your brain.

What is consciousness, could we be spawned inside of God's consciousness as his "imaginary friends" as some people tend to create? Or are we living inside of him as someone suffering from schizophrenia is, another spawned consciousness. Maybe a true schizophrenic would simply be someone that has 2 consciousness channeled into their bodies, this also could bring up the possibility of reincarnation where as after your consciousness releases from your body you can connect back into a baby er something, how can this be possible? theres no way to prove it.. just ideas..

This leads me to a new definition of consciousness where I would describe it as being aware of reality and being able to chose what you want, being able to learn, and being able to understand. Ok that definition needs work.. lol.

[Beto]

in response to #1, no it can't your lying and there is no way to backup the argument without saying the impossible exists.

care to venture a guess as to why? sure thing.. if you let a computer program chose a decimal from a coordinate plane of existence then it can only chose a number that is within its own memory compacity, i.e. each decimal place would take up room, therefor if a computer was to chose an angle, it could never chose an angle with more decimal places then its memory can hold. We can do this however, its called free will even if we are unaware of exactly the number of the angle we chose, we still chose it.

We chose a a number, but we don't know what number it is? Care to elaborate on that?

[Creed]

in response to #1, no it can't your lying and there is no way to backup the argument without saying the impossible exists.

care to venture a guess as to why? sure thing.. if you let a computer program chose a decimal from a coordinate plane of existence then it can only chose a number that is within its own memory compacity, i.e. each decimal place would take up room, therefor if a computer was to chose an angle, it could never chose an angle with more decimal places then its memory can hold. We can do this however, its called free will even if we are unaware of exactly the number of the angle we chose, we still chose it.

We chose a a number, but we don't know what number it is? Care to elaborate on that?

Sure thing my friend, The true value of an angle you chose is unmeasurable because you can't measure anything perfectly. Therefor you are unaware of what the angle is, all you know is that you chose to go there.

Subconsciously you think of the angle you want, but can never truly define. This however is irrelevant do to the fact that the angle does exist.

[byofrcs]

1) A computer program can be made to have an unlimited number of choices and choose just one.

2) Same as a human brain. We can decide out of an infinity of possible positions for our wrist, just one position.

You have not yet shown that the program in 1) is any different from 2).

We can assume you are not studying CS else you would understand bruteforce verses rainbow tables as a tradeoff between storage and time.

The human doesn't make instantaneous decisions but responds to stimuli and has a very poor positioning compare to a modern machine tool. Whereas a good industrial robot should be able to position a tool to 0.1 mm accuracy a human end effector (your hand) would barely keep a tool still within 10 times that.

in response to #1, no it can't your lying and there is no way to backup the argument without saying the impossible exists.

care to venture a guess as to why? sure thing.. if you let a computer program chose a decimal from a coordinate plane of existence then it can only chose a number that is within its own memory compacity, i.e. each decimal place would take up room, therefor if a computer was to chose an angle, it could never chose an angle with more decimal places then its memory can hold. We can do this however, its called free will even if we are unaware of exactly the number of the angle we chose, we still chose it.

I'm not quite sure Openedup, I'm willing to listen to you if you have any ideas about it. Technically we could all be "a part" of God as the "Bible" talks about, but there is no way to tell for sure what you can not prove. You can prove that it can not exist in the body because each choice would take up space in your memory, since you have infinite amounts of choices, each choice taking up a bit more of your memory, they can not be programed into a finite amount of space, i.e. your brain.

What is consciousness, could we be spawned inside of God's consciousness as his "imaginary friends" as some people tend to create? Or are we living inside of him as someone suffering from schizophrenia is, another spawned consciousness. Maybe a true schizophrenic would simply be someone that has 2 consciousness channeled into their bodies, this also could bring up the possibility of reincarnation where as after your consciousness releases from your body you can connect back into a baby er something, how can this be possible? theres no way to prove it.. just ideas..

This leads me to a new definition of consciousness where I would describe it as being aware of reality and being able to chose what you want, being able to learn, and being able to understand. Ok that definition needs work.. lol.

No I'm not: Using my analogue driven end effector with analogue feedback with shot noise my robot can choose any one angle out of an infinity of angles. No one in the world can predict what it is. The robot decides this angle no different from a human deciding when to start or stop rotating their hand.

You really do need to understand the difference between analogue and digital systems and why you use one or the other because it is clear you are mixing these up.

Yes it is impossible to store any arbitrary angle as a digital value without error and this is why with some systems you keep analogue data as analogue rather than using a ADC with processing and then use a DAC.

If I used a stepping motor then the discrete steps would cog the hand. I would also be limited in resolution of my DAC/ADC and maths. This is why I have specified analogue throughout rather than digital. Humans have a lot of analogue components too.

So answer my question or say why this robot is impossible to make.

[jwu]

Just wondering...how can a human even consciously "choose" to move his arm to an angle of 45.234234234234234[insert trillions of digits here]34533453453455° ?

The time required to make up such a number in one's mind exceeds the lifetime.

[Beto]

in response to #1, no it can't your lying and there is no way to backup the argument without saying the impossible exists.

care to venture a guess as to why? sure thing.. if you let a computer program chose a decimal from a coordinate plane of existence then it can only chose a number that is within its own memory compacity, i.e. each decimal place would take up room, therefor if a computer was to chose an angle, it could never chose an angle with more decimal places then its memory can hold. We can do this however, its called free will even if we are unaware of exactly the number of the angle we chose, we still chose it.

We chose a a number, but we don't know what number it is? Care to elaborate on that?

Sure thing my friend, The true value of an angle you chose is unmeasurable because you can't measure anything perfectly. Therefor you are unaware of what the angle is, all you know is that you chose to go there.

Subconsciously you think of the angle you want, but can never truly define. This however is irrelevant do to the fact that the angle does exist.

I think you may be mistaking the "angle" as a "concept", with the attempt to physically measure an angle. The concept can be in both the human's and the computer's memory, and it will be perfect in both. Physically, the computer will always have a more accurate measurement. If you're arguing that the computer doesn't recognize the "concept" as "abstract", that's a different matter, but for all intents and purposes, it doesn't have to.