Theism Analogy: Living Rocks of Death Valley

[boatsnguitars]

The mystery of the sailing stones
Located on the border of California and Nevada, Death Valley National Park was designated in 1933, and is home to one of the world's strangest phenomena: rocks that move along the desert ground with no gravitational cause. Known as "sailing stones," the rocks vary in size from a few ounces to hundreds of pounds. Though no one has ever seen them actually move in person, the trails left behind the stones and periodic changes in their location make it clear that they do.

The rocks of Racetrack Playa are composed of dolomite and syenite, the same materials that make up the surrounding mountains. They tumble down due to the forces of erosion, coming to rest on the parched ground below. Once they reach the level surface of the playa, the rocks somehow move horizontally, leaving perfect tracks behind them to record their path.

Many of the largest rocks have left behind trails as long as 1,500 feet, suggesting that they've moved a long way indeed from their original location. Rocks with a rough-bottomed surface leave straight tracks, while smooth-bottomed rocks tend to wander. The sailing stones have been observed and studied since the early 1900s, and several theories have been suggested to explain their mysterious movements.

"Proposed explanations run the gamut from natural to paranormal to alien. Strange magnetic forces, psychic energy, alien spacecraft, teenage pranksters, and even transdimensional vortices have all been proposed. "

Theist explanation:
Supernatural forces exist. God is revealing Himself to us. God is moving them.

The wonder this phenomenon instills likewise reminds us of the majesty and power of the Invisible Intelligence (cf. Romans 1.20), creating the very physics making moving rocks possible.

As I read about the sailing stones, I could not help but recall the words of Jesus when asked by the Pharisees to rebuke His followers. The occasion was Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The people were crying out their “hosannas” to the Lord. Jesus told the Pharisees, quoting from the prophet Habakkuk, that “if these become silent, the stones will cry out!” (Luke 19.40 NASB; Habakkuk 2.11) Indeed!

If you ever question your worth to God, recall the sailing stones. Without the benefit of intelligence or purpose, they still point to their Creator. They appear to be immovable, and yet are pliable by the laws God put in place. As I take stock of what I can do, I note that even I can do more than the sailing stones, possessing locomotion and free will. How shameful, then, when I choose to sit silent as a boulder. May God use me like a rock so others can see my deeds and give God the glory (Matthew 5.13-16).

Further "science" from theists was that if the stones were pushed by a flood, the tracks would have been erased. Or, wind isn't strong enough. etc. There were many knee jerk answers to the problem, all included supernatural elements - because to them, that's the first explanation when something is unexplained.


Scientific explanation:

In 2014, scientists were able to capture the movement of the stones for the first time using time-lapse photography. The results strongly suggest that the sailing stones are the result of a perfect balance of ice, water, and wind. In the winter of 2014, rain formed a small pond that froze overnight and thawed the next day, creating a vast sheet of ice that was reduced by midday to only a few millimeters thick. Driven by a light wind, this sheet broke up and accumulated behind the stones, slowly pushing them forward.
https://www.nationalparks.org/connect/b ... f%20pounds.
https://earthsky.org/earth/death-valley ... ry-solved/

This is what is happening with the Shroud of Turin, Evolution, Climate Change, etc: Theists (and other wackos) offering ridiculous "answers" to solve very mundane problems.

So, what is your explanation for the rocks moving in Death Valley?

[1213]

...if they say something the believer doesn't like, that is dismissed as human opinion. ..

I dismiss things, if they are not reasonable, and can't be proven true.

...I knew the Bible better than my opponent...

Funny baseless claim.

[1213]

That could mean you look at the presented information and pick what you like.
...

And you do the opposite, you pick the idea that you don't like and don't think is the most reasonable?

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

Transponder nominated this thread as best debate topic, so although I saw this thread earlier and did not comment, perhaps I should...

The mystery of the sailing stones
Located on the border of California and Nevada, Death Valley National Park was designated in 1933, and is home to one of the world's strangest phenomena: rocks that move along the desert ground with no gravitational cause. Known as "sailing stones," the rocks vary in size from a few ounces to hundreds of pounds. Though no one has ever seen them actually move in person, the trails left behind the stones and periodic changes in their location make it clear that they do.

The rocks of Racetrack Playa are composed of dolomite and syenite, the same materials that make up the surrounding mountains. They tumble down due to the forces of erosion, coming to rest on the parched ground below. Once they reach the level surface of the playa, the rocks somehow move horizontally, leaving perfect tracks behind them to record their path.

Many of the largest rocks have left behind trails as long as 1,500 feet, suggesting that they've moved a long way indeed from their original location. Rocks with a rough-bottomed surface leave straight tracks, while smooth-bottomed rocks tend to wander. The sailing stones have been observed and studied since the early 1900s, and several theories have been suggested to explain their mysterious movements.

"Proposed explanations run the gamut from natural to paranormal to alien. Strange magnetic forces, psychic energy, alien spacecraft, teenage pranksters, and even transdimensional vortices have all been proposed. "

Theist explanation:
Supernatural forces exist. God is revealing Himself to us. God is moving them.

The wonder this phenomenon instills likewise reminds us of the majesty and power of the Invisible Intelligence (cf. Romans 1.20), creating the very physics making moving rocks possible.

As I read about the sailing stones, I could not help but recall the words of Jesus when asked by the Pharisees to rebuke His followers. The occasion was Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The people were crying out their “hosannas” to the Lord. Jesus told the Pharisees, quoting from the prophet Habakkuk, that “if these become silent, the stones will cry out!” (Luke 19.40 NASB; Habakkuk 2.11) Indeed!

If you ever question your worth to God, recall the sailing stones. Without the benefit of intelligence or purpose, they still point to their Creator. They appear to be immovable, and yet are pliable by the laws God put in place. As I take stock of what I can do, I note that even I can do more than the sailing stones, possessing locomotion and free will. How shameful, then, when I choose to sit silent as a boulder. May God use me like a rock so others can see my deeds and give God the glory (Matthew 5.13-16).

Further "science" from theists was that if the stones were pushed by a flood, the tracks would have been erased. Or, wind isn't strong enough. etc. There were many knee jerk answers to the problem, all included supernatural elements - because to them, that's the first explanation when something is unexplained.


Scientific explanation:

In 2014, scientists were able to capture the movement of the stones for the first time using time-lapse photography. The results strongly suggest that the sailing stones are the result of a perfect balance of ice, water, and wind. In the winter of 2014, rain formed a small pond that froze overnight and thawed the next day, creating a vast sheet of ice that was reduced by midday to only a few millimeters thick. Driven by a light wind, this sheet broke up and accumulated behind the stones, slowly pushing them forward.
https://www.nationalparks.org/connect/b ... f%20pounds.
https://earthsky.org/earth/death-valley ... ry-solved/

This is what is happening with the Shroud of Turin, Evolution, Climate Change, etc: Theists (and other wackos) offering ridiculous "answers" to solve very mundane problems.

So, what is your explanation for the rocks moving in Death Valley?

Without looking at any of the links, I would assume it is a natural phenomenon.

(Seems to me that the theist from your quote may have been suggesting something similar because he says the stones move by the laws God implemented, and that would include natural laws.)


This thread reminded me of a question I was asked on this forum shortly after I joined. I don't remember the thread or who asked it, but someone's house (next to a cemetery) kept getting a swarm of flies (I think in just one particular room). Someone asked me what I thought that was... assuming I would go for a supernatural explanation. That didn't even occur to me; I assumed and suggested that the person had a dead animal in their walls or under their floor boards that was attracting flies, then maggots, then flies. I suggested the owner should have called an exterminator to search for the carcass of an animal that probably crawled into the walls of that room and died. The poster who asked me the question was surprised at my response. He said all the other 'believers' he had asked (in person or elsewhere) had suggested something supernatural. That surprised me and I had to wonder where in the world he lives that the people would go for 'haunting or evil spirit' over animal carcass attracting a cycle of flies and maggots!


**

I assume you also know that an atheist might think 'aliens did it'. Maybe not with those stones on the beach, but I do recall people believing the Easter Island statues were there from aliens. Now, I didn't know how they got from one side of the island to the other, but I also assumed something natural, probably something very simple and innovative. There are a few theories; I liked the 'walk across the island' theory (with ropes) because it matches the legend.

https://www.easterisland.travel/easter- ... i-statues/


**

In any case, my faith is not based upon shrouds of turin or moving rocks or relics. I try to stay off those particular threads because I don't know what others need and I don't want to unintentionally hurt someone's faith over those things. If I saw something false being said about God and His Son, then I might participate on those threads, but I tend to stay away.

My faith is based upon Christ Himself, upon truth... and it (faith) was a gift, given to me. I serve Him and follow Him out of love.


(also, living stones crying out are people; such as people being placed into the Living Temple that is the Body of Christ)


Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Tam, I also nominated you as most polite debator. I don't mean to be impolite about your response. Hear me out. The comment on the swarm of flies is fair enough in not leaping to some supernatural claim but assuming 'something is attracting them'which is the assumption anyone from film - makers in a screenplay to police in checking a backyard would also make. "Satan did not put the bullet in him" is the way courts work. But leave it as the hypothesis stage, so you have a lot of "Philosophers"arguing about which is the most likely explanation (with theists at the side squeaking "Perhaps God is doing it", or indeed UFO faddists - who could be atheist - suggesting ET aliens are doing it) when the thing to do - like the perambulating rocks - is to investigate.

Now the possibly impolite bit.

Yours is the perfect faithbased answer. Not on any evidence but on a supposed gift of revealed truth from God. While I respect persons, and their right to believe whatever they like, I cannot respect faithclaims based on nothing valid.

I do respect claims of Faith or the supernatural or indeed conspiracy theories based on valid evidence (Hence this thread) though that respect evaporates when the demolition of that evidence is dismissed faithstyle (claims of Egyptian stoneworking proves ancient and probably ET alien power tools gets debunked and they do not accept that or even listen).But it's why the Shroud still has some puzzles and I subscribe to a real Jesus, even doing a lot of the things in the gospels, perhaps in a different way, because I do not dismiss evidence just to suit myself, nor do I do 'Faith'.

Which is why I am now 70 -80% convinced the exodus didn't happen while 20 years ago I might be 50% convinced it did, in some sorta way. And discussion of the evidence is why I'm here and faithclaims count for nothing.

[TRANSPONDER]

...if they say something the believer doesn't like, that is dismissed as human opinion. ..

I dismiss things, if they are not reasonable, and can't be proven true.

...I knew the Bible better than my opponent...

Funny baseless claim.

Interesting. While I prefer not to do finger - jabbing, I notince something I first encountered in a e- debate with a Christian colleague on the Bible, Keyword response'. That is, he seemed to skip over my post without really reading it and pick out a keyword to make a totally unrelated point. You ignored the rest of my post to make that one swipe above, which was refuted by my post anyway. He (or she) said that the light of Eden was cosmic and the sun was indeed made later than earth. But the Bible actually says the light was night and dark, morning and evening. Thus it is clearly light from the sun.

Now suppose you explain why you made a baseless swipe at my post based on not bothering to read it properly.

[tam]

Peace to you,

(thought I would just bring over your response because our exchange would be too long otherwise; the link is below to be able to follow back if need be)

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #43]

Tam, I also nominated you as most polite debator. I don't mean to be impolite about your response. Hear me out. The comment on the swarm of flies is fair enough in not leaping to some supernatural claim but assuming 'something is attracting them'which is the assumption anyone from film - makers in a screenplay to police in checking a backyard would also make. "Satan did not put the bullet in him" is the way courts work. But leave it as the hypothesis stage, so you have a lot of "Philosophers"arguing about which is the most likely explanation (with theists at the side squeaking "Perhaps God is doing it", or indeed UFO faddists - who could be atheist - suggesting ET aliens are doing it) when the thing to do - like the perambulating rocks - is to investigate.

Agreed.

The point is that the OP (and some posters) makes some sweeping comments about what theists (wackos according to the OP) do and think. My post is up there to show that this is not the case. For some, sure. For others, not at all. The same would be true about atheists.

(It was kind of you to nominate me, but please note that I do not consider disagreement to be impolite; or if it is considered rude, then I would rather truth than politeness. One of the reasons I try to be 'civil' is because one of the rules in this 'house' is to be civil. If I don't like the rule, I am free to leave, but if I choose to stay, I should respect the owner of the 'house' and the rule.)

Now the possibly impolite bit.


Yours is the perfect faithbased answer. Not on any evidence but on a supposed gift of revealed truth from God. While I respect persons, and their right to believe whatever they like, I cannot respect faithclaims based on nothing valid.

Are you just referring to the part of my post where I state what - and who - my faith is based upon? I did not go into detail (this is not the thread for that, and it has been done on other threads; it is not that faith has no evidence.)

But it's why the Shroud still has some puzzles and I subscribe to a real Jesus, even doing a lot of the things in the gospels, perhaps in a different way, because I do not dismiss evidence just to suit myself, nor do I do 'Faith'.

I have no issue with someone examining evidence.

Which is why I am now 70 -80% convinced the exodus didn't happen while 20 years ago I might be 50% convinced it did, in some sorta way. And discussion of the evidence is why I'm here and faithclaims count for nothing.

Okay, well, the only two theists I have seen on this thread (1213 and myself) have said that they would have assumed a natural explanation for those stones rather than a supernatural explanation. In the example I posted, the poster expected a supernatural explanation from me because that is what he thought all 'theists' did, but a supernatural explanation did not even occur to me.

So perhaps the OP (and others if the shoe fits) should consider revising their statements and beliefs about theists. In keeping with the evidence.


Peace again to you.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to tam in post #45]

The Faithclaim was here" My faith is based upon Christ Himself, upon truth... and it (faith) was a gift, given to me. I serve Him and follow Him out of love." That is on Faith (and apparently imparted revealed Truth) rather than evidence. While I respect people's right to belive in Faith imparting truth, it does not make a good case.

Thanks for your explanation. No matter why your posts are polite, Polite they are

As to the moving stones, the materialist default obtains, here. The way logic and evidence works is, to make a natural explanation (even if unknown) the default, not immediately leap to a supernatural explanation.

That, from NDEs to origins of Life is why the supernatural claims fail, until validated. They do not win by default or 'the scientists have no explanation'. It is the built -in Fail of theistic and cult -think. Unless the next election goes badly and laws are passed so that Logic is what the Pulpit says it is.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #45]

The Faithclaim was here" My faith is based upon Christ Himself, upon truth... and it (faith) was a gift, given to me. I serve Him and follow Him out of love." That is on Faith (and apparently imparted revealed Truth) rather than evidence. While I respect people's right to belive in Faith imparting truth, it does not make a good case.

I think we have wires crossed here.

I did not state that faith imparts truth. Christ imparts truth. My faith is in Him, based on Him and the truth that He imparts.

As to the moving stones, the materialist default obtains, here. The way logic and evidence works is, to make a natural explanation (even if unknown) the default, not immediately leap to a supernatural explanation.

Well, like I said, both 1213 and I assumed a natural explanation for the moving stones.

That, from NDEs to origins of Life is why the supernatural claims fail, until validated. They do not win by default or 'the scientists have no explanation'.

I agree they do not win by default (or because "scientists have no explanation.")

It is the built -in Fail of theistic and cult -think.

Except you have been given evidence in this very thread of theists who do not look to 'supernatural' for the default position. And surely you know there are indeed atheists that default to 'aliens did it.'

People don't have to be theists to default to a supernatural position.
People don't have to be atheists to think or reason logically.


Peace again to you!

[TRANSPONDER]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #45]

The Faithclaim was here" My faith is based upon Christ Himself, upon truth... and it (faith) was a gift, given to me. I serve Him and follow Him out of love." That is on Faith (and apparently imparted revealed Truth) rather than evidence. While I respect people's right to belive in Faith imparting truth, it does not make a good case.

I think we have wires crossed here.

I did not state that faith imparts truth. Christ imparts truth. My faith is in Him, based on Him and the truth that He imparts.

As to the moving stones, the materialist default obtains, here. The way logic and evidence works is, to make a natural explanation (even if unknown) the default, not immediately leap to a supernatural explanation.

Well, like I said, both 1213 and I assumed a natural explanation for the moving stones.

That, from NDEs to origins of Life is why the supernatural claims fail, until validated. They do not win by default or 'the scientists have no explanation'.

I agree they do not win by default (or because "scientists have no explanation.")

It is the built -in Fail of theistic and cult -think.

Except you have been given evidence in this very thread of theists who do not look to 'supernatural' for the default position. And surely you know there are indeed atheists that default to 'aliens did it.'

People don't have to be theists to default to a supernatural position.
People don't have to be atheists to think or reason logically.


Peace again to you!

But your claim that Christ imparts Truth, (apparently by revelation) is a faith - claim. And that some theists may opt for a natural explanation as the go -to hypothesis (even without an explanatory hypothesis) is what undermines faith -claims/appeal to unknowns, because they are tacitly admitting that i the way to reason. A supernatural explanation (faithclaim) tends to be based on an existing Faith taken as the default.

The same thing happens with UFO beliefs, alternative history and Aztec UFO - piloting pyramid builders on Mars. And their cult may be without gods. That doesn't make their beliefs more logical or scientific, nor atheist rationalism less so.

[1213]

...But the Bible actually says the light was night and dark, morning and evening. Thus it is clearly light from the sun.

That is just your interpretation. There could have been other light source to cause day and night.

[Clownboat]

I did not state that faith imparts truth. Christ imparts truth. My faith is in Him, based on Him and the truth that He imparts.

How does the process work as to where Christ imparts truth to you, via faith in him, which is based on him and the truth he imparts?

Yesterday I was explaining a truth to one of my daughters, (the differences between manual and automatic transmission). I used audible words and lots of hand gestures to get her to understand the truth I was imparting to her. Does Christ use audible words and hand gestures to impart truths to you? I would like to better understand this process if you please.