Can atheists and believers agree in one religion?

[przemeknowicki]

I am thinking of retirement and about summarizing my life experiences in a book on politics and religion. I hope it is not against the rules of this forum to point you to my website because I need it to start the discussion.
Here it is www.freedomgates.net
Please skip the political part and read what I had to say in the religion section.
Tell me please if you have any thoughts, comments, agreements and disagreements. Forums have always been my best inspiration and I hope again to gather more material for my book. I hope to learn from you.

Thank you for participating.

Thomas Orr (my assumed name)

[przemeknowicki]

Christianity isn't defined by you. It's defined by Jesus Christ, and He makes very clear what it is in the Bible. Your very mention of a "brand" of Christianity shows that you do not have the definition correct. There are no "brands". There are Christians and there are non-Christians. Christians aren't made up of every single person that proclaims to be a Christian. The Body of Christ (Christians) is made up of all people that are temples of the Holy Spirit and have a True and sincere Faith in Jesus Christ as the one true God. Just because a person says they are a Christian doesn't make it so, and your definition of Christianity does not fit Jesus'. I believe Him.

Hi GreenLight311,

your own words demonstrate the best what I was talking about when evaluating the kind of "aggressive" Christianity you and Amedeus represent.

On one hand it is all about "a True and sincere Faith in Jesus Christ as the one true God" but on the other hand it is "what it is in the Bible".

You know, Bible is very interesting. One can take a scientific approach and paint the picture of the Biblical God using the best tools available to psychological analysis. What emerges is an egotistic, maniacal tyrant who constantly breaks His own promises and most of the time shows to the world His angry face.

Even Jesus is prone to suffer from outbursts of uncontrolled wrath and anger.

So, one must be rather careful with the Bible.

You claim that there are no different brands of Christianity. You claim that there are only Christians and non-Christians. I beg to disagree. I see a huge difference between the Unitarian Church with its humble and all inclusive philosophy on one hand and the Spanish Inquisition on the other hand.

Being a human being is not simple and the same applies to Christians. One cannot be guided by the narrow vision of the world and earn love and respect at the same time. Your own God says that you must earn love and respect of your fellow human beings before you can earn love and respect of God. So you might be interested how the Christians like you are perceived from the outside. Here is one quote I like.

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.

-- Steven Weinberg, Nobel laureate physicist"

Christianity earned my respect in many ways. I admire the Amish people who show their love for the Creator with their deep respect to the creation - the Nature. I admire nuns and monks from various orders of the Catholic Church for their services to the poor. I respect the Unitarian Church for their humble message "We need not think alike to love alike." (http://www.firstuu-philly.org/)

You see, I am not confused with my judgments. I am not giving up on knowing who is good and who is not just because "I cannot see what's inside a person's heart". Jesus made it very easy for me. He said they we will know the good from bad by the kind of fruit they produce. And this is exactly what my writings are all about.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

[BeHereNow]

Yes Gatekeeper.
Once again you have cut to the quick of the bone while others wallow in the fat.
Thomas Jefferson was one of the first to recognize the truth and encompassing doctrines of the Unitarian church, saying he hoped before he died that all men in this new nation might call themselves Unitarians. They strive for the unity that Christ so clearly wants for all of mankind.
Many Christians who profess to be followers of Christ are really followers of the Bible, the Bible they seek to interpret to their needs and wants.
There are dedicated followers of Christ’s message in all denominations of Christianity. There are followers of other belief systems who live lives Christ would be proud to call as his own. “By their works you shall know them.”
The message you present is clear, direct and to the point.
Once again I thank you.

[przemeknowicki]

Thanks, I've had my "vacation". I was dead in my sins for years and years, and then made alive by the blood of Christ. I have only been a Christian since October 9th, 2002, (As stated in the "Questions for GreenLight311 thread: http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... =8497#8497) and I have already explored other religions passionately. Prior to coming to knowledge of the Truth, I was a harsh critic and persecutor of Christians. As I have said, I cannot tell you in al Truth what a Christian is. Ultimately, you must go to Jesus Christ to find that answer. I am not greater than He, and I am not greater than you. Asking me these questions will do you little good.

God bless you, and the outcome of your book.

Hi GreenLight311,

I have visited your link and can understand where you are coming from. Being around for a while and having explored what I only could I am in a fortunate position to explain your experience and give you advice. You see, the psychic phenomena you described as "being made alive by the blood of Christ" are quite common and are not necessarily unique to Christians. In fact, pick any religious movement and you will find stories of people going through similar experiences and transformations. My own happened at the initiation ceremony in the teachings of an Oriental guru.

In most cases such experiences are played by your subconscious mind, a very impressionable and rather primitive identity. Think about unexplained fears people experience when going through a cemetery at night. Think about exorcisms. Many Catholics believe that those practices provide the proof that devil exists and that the Catholic church is superior to other beliefs. But it all is in your mind. Demons and the cures for them alike. Please, don't put Jesus Christ there because He reigns in much higher domain. And so do you. Don't allow yourself to be ruled by the subconscious idiot inside you.

My advice to you comes from my heart. Once I was like you. I left my family, my friends and my life as I knew it, and joined a religious sect. I burned all the bridges behind me, insulted my friends and hurt my family. It happened many years ago but even today I feel shame and I cannot believe that I made such an A!@#$# of myself.

If you are interested in putting your experiences in proper perspective I would heartily recommend the following readings:
1. The Messenger by Geoff Boltwood
2. Autobiography of a Yogi by Yogananda
3. Under the Banner of Heaven by Ion Krakauer

Regards,

Thomas Orr

[przemeknowicki]

The message you present is clear, direct and to the point.
Once again I thank you.

I am trying and hoping that other people like yourself will help.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

[chrispalasz]

I'm sorry, I posted my comments because I thought you wanted a variety of comments and opinions regarding your writings. I appreciate the gesture of your advice; but I did not come here to ask you if, in your vast life experience, you could interpret my personal life experiences and give me advice on them.

If you want to discuss your theory that my "subconcious idiot" inside is controlling me, I would be happy to discuss the errors in it. If you're interested, start a new thread and let me know.

My advice to you comes from my heart. Once I was like you.

I believe you when you say that your advice comes from your heart. What I have come to know is that what comes from our hearts is not always righteousness... but by nature, quite the opposite. Thank you very much for your politeness; but sir, you state that you were once like me. I can garuntee you that if you do not now know with 100% certainty that Jesus Christ is God and the only way to salvation, you were never like me. If we have similarities, it's more likely that before God gave me Life, I was once like you.

I left my family, my friends and my life as I knew it, and joined a religious sect. I burned all the bridges behind me, insulted my friends and hurt my family. It happened many years ago but even today I feel shame and I cannot believe that I made such an A!@#$# of myself.

I am thankful today that I have never left my family, my friends, or my life since becoming a Christian. I am happy that I have not burned any bridges behind me, insulted my friends or hurt my family since becoming a Christian. I am glad that I feel no shame today, and I am confident that I will never feel any shame for being a Christian.

I just came here to give you my view of your writings, and I have done that. It seems to me what you are truly looking for on this thread is for people to agree with you:

BeHereNow wrote:
The message you present is clear, direct and to the point.
Once again I thank you.

I am trying and hoping that other people like yourself will help.
Regards,
Thomas Orr

Here, you state that you hope people like BeHereNow will help, yet clearly all he has done is agree with you and appoint you as his prophet. If this is what you were seeking, let me congratulate you on your success.

That's an Interesting quote by an intelligent physicist. It's also interesting how a religious extremist like Steven Weinberg can make such a statement.

Here's a quote I like:

"I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else."
-- C.S. Lewis

Thank you for your book references. I may very well dig through them, but only to the extent of trying to understand where you're coming from.

You claim that there are no different brands of Christianity. You claim that there are only Christians and non-Christians. I beg to disagree. I see a huge difference between the Unitarian Church with its humble and all inclusive philosophy on one hand and the Spanish Inquisition on the other hand.

There are no different brands of Christianity. This is not only what I teach, but it is what Christ teaches and it is what Paul teaches... even to this day, through the Bible. I did not say there were no differences between the institutions and buildings and organizations that call themselves churches and call themselves "Christians". I am saying that the only Christian Church is not a single institution or collective group of institutions. I am saying that the only True Christian Church consists of believers across the globe that have the Holy Spirit inside of them and have Faith in Jesus Christ. The word church has a different meaning in todays society than it did in the Bible. Jesus established the Christian church meaning that a church is a temple, and the body of one who has Faith in Christ is a temple for the Holy Spirit. Thus, all people that have the Holy Spirit make up the Christian church, and nobody else, regardless of whether or not they go to a building that is called a "church". Let me know if I need to go any further in this explanation.

your own words demonstrate the best what I was talking about when evaluating the kind of "aggressive" Christianity you and Amedeus represent.

I apologize if Christians have offended you or hurt you in your past life. I am extremely sorry that there are people that would misrepresent Christ in such a way. The message Amedeus and I preach is extremely good news. God has opened up salvation to all the nations of the world. Jesus Christ has suffered and died for our sins, and all we need to do is have Faith in Him. We preach the gospel of Christ: The gospel of love, patience, mercy, forgiveness, salvation, and righteousness.

[przemeknowicki]

Hi GreenLight311,

I am really touched by your humble post. I had no intention of offending or ridicule you. Even the "subconscious idiot" was not meant to offend. My "subconscious idiot" is not any smarter than yours. We all deal with our superstitious thoughts, unfounded fears and we all tend to be sometimes tricked by what is happening at the subconscious level. That is all I wanted to say.

However, I have to reject your claim that all you wanted was to offer comments and opinions regarding my writings. All you (and Amadeus) wanted was to use my writings as an opportunity to preach. Sorry for not realizing this sooner and rushing with my advice.

Regards,

Thomas Orr

[Amadeus]

Please don't think I am here to preach. I originally came on this site to defend some misconceptions and slanders that I saw people posting on this forum. Some people are very hostile toward Christianity.
What I am getting here is not an opportunity to change people's minds, because just about everybody on this forum has their mind made up already. I am learning how to defend my faith. I am learning what arguments work, and which one's don't. I am learning (slowly) how to temper my words so they don't come off as angry or offensive. I don't expect any conversions here, but I am seeing a change in myself.

That is why I am here.

[przemeknowicki]

Please don't think I am here to preach. I originally came on this site to defend some misconceptions and slanders that I saw people posting on this forum. Some people are very hostile toward Christianity.
What I am getting here is not an opportunity to change people's minds, because just about everybody on this forum has their mind made up already. I am learning how to defend my faith. I am learning what arguments work, and which one's don't. I am learning (slowly) how to temper my words so they don't come off as angry or offensive. I don't expect any conversions here, but I am seeing a change in myself.

That is why I am here.

Ok. Glad to hear this. I can only speak for myself when I give you assurance that I am not hostile toward Christianity but I hope that the majority of this forum shares my attitude. I think we are hostile when we have to deal with some Christians like our current president while we respect Christians who are more like the former president Jimmy Carter.

I can understand your expectations of this forum because this is something similar to what I hope to get from here - better understanding of my own ideas

Regards,

Thomas Orr

[illuminatus]

Your examples of God killing people is not exactly accurate.

God said "thou shall not kill", which can be translated as "thou shall not murder"

When God killed people, it was out of righteous judgement. Not murder.

Actually God told Moses "Thou shall not kill thy neighbor." That's an entirely different meaning. Not that we shouldn't kill, but rather we shouldn't kill each other. Since humans are not God's "neighbors" or equals in anyway then God did not break any rules.

[Arthra]

Tom,

Yes i read some portions of your religious section... I think my comments are directed at two areas..

I really don't see true religion as political or partisan as you apparently do...

When religion gets involved with politics it gets compromised and coopted by politics and becomes a mere means to a poltical end. The opposite should be the case..that is religious people can advise the polticians but shouldn't be enmesshed and embedded with the politician. More over partisanship is contrary to the unifying property of religion in my view.

As to your views on Moslems I think you need to consider what's really occurring there... Most are not involved in what some call "Jihad"..only opportunitists and terrorists are using this concept for their own ends...co-opting religion and using it to their advantage...See the notes above.

Also terrorism is often the resort of the powerless who can't afford to field an army...or connect with spy satellites. Not to excuse it but only to say the it is usually the resort of those who feel powerless and have limited means to defend themselves... in any case, terrorism and true religion are not compatible.

-Art