Noah's Ark an engineering masterpiece!

[Cmass]

What assumptions must be made. Part 1:

What scientific and engineering assumptions must we make about the story of Noah's Ark that would render the story a true fact?
* Can we make assumptions that are based soundly in science that could render the story plausible?
* What gaps in the story must we fill in?
* Christians, what assumptions have you made about the flood story that has kept it alive for you over the years?

We could discuss the science of the flood - but I think it would help to concentrate on one thing at a time: In this case the ship itself and it's ability to contain all the animals 2 by 2 and deal with waves and being shipwrecked on a mountain etc...

[Cathar1950]

What progress do you see about the question 'why is there something rather than nothing'?

This is getting wildly off-topic so I'll just answer with a quote to demonstrate that I'm not just making this up . If you want to explore this further then can I suggest looking for another topic that's already debating this matter or start one afresh.

“Many philosophers past and present think that the question of why something exists rather than nothing is unscientific. Some have claimed that the question is meaningless because it could never, even in principle, be answered. Others have claimed that the question lies in the realm of metaphysics, forever beyond the reach of science.
Science has proved these philosophers wrong. Modern science has not ignored the question of why something exists rather than nothing. For the first time ever, the question has a possible scientific answer based on the idea that because nothingness is unstable, the universe necessarily exists. Why is there something rather than nothing? Ultimately, because something – the universe – necessarily exists”
[Daniel Kolak and Raymond Martin, Wisdom Without Answers: A Guide to the Experience of Philosophy, 2nd ed. (Belmont, Calif: Wadsworth Publishing Co., 1991, pp. 79-80.

Unfortunately that makes sense to me QED. There is something in the world necessarily exists. Something exists because everything else does. My view of the present, what ever that is, is open while now is experienced and the past is here but closed.
I am still thinking about time. Bernie has some thing to say about time and the past that pushed my view a little my way so I have to pick his brain. Memory seems to be a key here. Even our intense experiences of the “now” are memory they have already happened.
Looking at things that exist is a lot easier then looking at things that don’t.

[Cmass]

Confused said: Unless someone can dispute this, then Cmass, I think it is time to move on to creating your next thread for the flood itself.

You may be right, but there seems to be a bit more life in it yet and I am getting some very cool information and insight into people's mentality - which ultimately what I seek in this forum.

[Cathar1950]

I watched this program on either NGC or the History Channel about he true Noah.

They were telling of a story of a rich ruling Merchant that had his cargo on the river during a flood. Something about him taking a bunch of clean animals to be sold as sacrifices. I think we have covered the flood many times in here. As I recall there is not much evidence with out even the problems of the Ark. In fact all the evidence seems to indicate it didn’t happen at least not like the two accounts in Geneses. There are stories going back further such as the tales of the gods in ancient Sumerian and Babylonian writings. I wonder if we studied these tales and then looked at the two Genesis accounts if we cold figure out what they were trying to convey buy the changes they made. I personally think when they came in contact with their conquers they learned the stories from professionals and in real libraries from real scholars during the captivity or exile.
I am sure Canaan and Egypt had similar stories but it seems they felt like they found out the real stuff in Babylon as they wrote much of the first 5 books. Granted Ezra did some touch ups. Even the Ten Commandments can be found in ancient writings that predate Deuteronomy. There is the code of Hammurabi and there is the Egyptian book of the dead where as you approach the god of judgment you say such things as “I have not stolen, I have not murdered, I have not lied” and so on. Two things we need to know when was it written and why.
I also remember seeing a picture of an ancient Sumerian sculpture of a ram with its head caught in a thicket.

[Cmass]

When I start a thread I am looking for an angle that might be just a bit different which is why I did not ask whether or not the ark or flood was real. For many, many people the story is as real as rain and happened exactly as told. So, the idea here (I apparently did not construct it very well) was to try to identify what technical things needed to happen or be true in order for the story to have occurred the way it did.
Confused had some excellent input and research that I found interesting. I was hoping for more along those lines.

[Confused]

When I start a thread I am looking for an angle that might be just a bit different which is why I did not ask whether or not the ark or flood was real. For many, many people the story is as real as rain and happened exactly as told. So, the idea here (I apparently did not construct it very well) was to try to identify what technical things needed to happen or be true in order for the story to have occurred the way it did.
Confused had some excellent input and research that I found interesting. I was hoping for more along those lines.

In regards to the animals. I know it says in the bible that God sent the pairs. So I can't dispute that. But there are a few other things I can:

1) Noah, his wife, 3 sons, and 3 sons wives could have cared for all the animals if you consider the possibility that the female species was lactating and the male of the species was young enough he was still being fed by the mothers milk. This would cut the amount of animals requiring care for by half. Also, it would require half the amount of feed required for the animals. (I know, its far fetched, but so is god commanding all the animals to go to Noah and board the ark).

2) Even today we have stories where ships were caught in hurricanes adn batttled the elements for days and against all odds, survived. So is it possible Noahs did, sure (though not probable).

3) I have yet to figure out how Noah could have built a boat that massive with only his family to assist. So this I can offer no possibility to gap the bridge.

[FinalEnigma]

2) Even today we have stories where ships were caught in hurricanes adn batttled the elements for days and against all odds, survived. So is it possible Noahs did, sure (though not probable).

Well yes, but somehow i suspect our ships are more structurally sound than ships were in that time period.

3) I have yet to figure out how Noah could have built a boat that massive with only his family to assist. So this I can offer no possibility to gap the bridge.

Indeed, it would seem ridiculous for him to have built a boat that massive. Except that i just checked the KJV, NIV, and some other version of the bible and in none of them was there a mention of how long it took Noah to build the ark. God told him to built a ship with such-and-such dimensions, then it says he did as god commanded, then god gave him 7 days notice before the flood. after he built the ark. there is actually a person in the USA who built an entire castle by himself. it took him 2 years. Given that the time Noah is given to build the ark does not seem limited, he could have built it in 10 years for all we know, and that would be doable.

BTW, don't you mean bridge the gap, not gap the bridge?

1) Noah, his wife, 3 sons, and 3 sons wives could have cared for all the animals if you consider the possibility that the female species was lactating and the male of the species was young enough he was still being fed by the mothers milk. This would cut the amount of animals requiring care for by half. Also, it would require half the amount of feed required for the animals. (I know, its far fetched, but so is god commanding all the animals to go to Noah and board the ark).

ok, but there is also the problem of the animals mating. if they were all mothers and their sons, it might be a bit difficult to get them to mate afterwards. im no animal expert but i don't think animals commonly do that, though i allow there could be some that do, and there are ways that you could increase the probability of it.
I would cut in half the feed required except that a mother that is feeding young like that would necessarily have to consume more feed anyway to produce the extra nutrients to keep both them and their young healthy


PS: to your earlier post, confused, great research.

[Confused]

3) I have yet to figure out how Noah could have built a boat that massive with only his family to assist. So this I can offer no possibility to gap the bridge.

Indeed, it would seem ridiculous for him to have built a boat that massive. Except that i just checked the KJV, NIV, and some other version of the bible and in none of them was there a mention of how long it took Noah to build the ark. God told him to built a ship with such-and-such dimensions, then it says he did as god commanded, then god gave him 7 days notice before the flood. after he built the ark. there is actually a person in the USA who built an entire castle by himself. it took him 2 years. Given that the time Noah is given to build the ark does not seem limited, he could have built it in 10 years for all we know, and that would be doable.

quote="Confused"]
1) Noah, his wife, 3 sons, and 3 sons wives could have cared for all the animals if you consider the possibility that the female species was lactating and the male of the species was young enough he was still being fed by the mothers milk. This would cut the amount of animals requiring care for by half. Also, it would require half the amount of feed required for the animals. (I know, its far fetched, but so is god commanding all the animals to go to Noah and board the ark).

ok, but there is also the problem of the animals mating. if they were all mothers and their sons, it might be a bit difficult to get them to mate afterwards. im no animal expert but i don't think animals commonly do that, though i allow there could be some that do, and there are ways that you could increase the probability of it.
I would cut in half the feed required except that a mother that is feeding young like that would necessarily have to consume more feed anyway to produce the extra nutrients to keep both them and their young healthy[/quote]

PS: to your earlier post, confused, great research.

[/quote]
Genesis 7:32 After Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth. Lets assume he had each son in succession, so he had all three by the time he was ~503 years old. Now, each of his sons were married as is claimed in Genesis 6:13 On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, enered the ark. Lets be generous and say that each son got married at the age of 13 each (since that is generally the age in which a female gets her first menses, although that age is getting younger with every passing generation). So when Shem got married, Noah 516, When Ham got married, Noah was 517, When Japheth got married, Noah was 518. Since none of the sons had children yet (at least none mentioned in the bible) Lets say that God gave the commandment when Noah was 518 years old. Genesis 7:6 Noah was 600 years old when the flood waters came on earth.[i] [/i]That gives Noah and his family 82 years find enough cypress trees, cut them down, shape them, conform them, and build the ark. Then they must find enough materials to build the compartments within the ark for the animals, then they must find the supplies necessary to make enough pitch for both the inside and outside of the ark, then they needed to gather a form of every kind of food to be eaten (some of which they would have needed to purchase) to load on the ark (remember, god only sent the animals to them, nothing else). Now mind you, gods only assistance in this whole process what giving the diminsions of the ark, bringing the animals to be loaded, and then sealing the great door in the side of the ark once all was inside. Oh yeah, the still needed to make a living to survive themselves during these 82 years. I just don't see how it is possible.

I see your point about the mating issues, etc. But if both were youglings, then it would still require less care and less feed and less space.

[Cmass]

Why is it, that when Confused quotes scripture I can actually read it without falling asleep or screaming "get to the f$*%& point!"
This is a really nice piece of logic Confused!

[Cathar1950]

Why all the work? Why didn't God just use a protective bubble and snacks?
I think it is fun trying to figure out how it could be done.
But let us not forget it is a story or in this case two stories of older stories.
It has been reworked a number of times.
It must have been a great story at one time to have be repeated and still be with us today. There are other stories that are great.
Twins are always popping up.
A God or gods, causing a world wide flood or knowing about one coming, wants man to die but God or one of the gods saves some. Then the gods or God is sorry and lays down his bow and make peace with man.

[Cmass]

Why all the work? Why didn't God just use a protective bubble and snacks?

LOL!

But let us not forget it is a story or in this case two stories of older stories.
It has been reworked a number of times.

This is true with most stories in the bible.