Isaac and Abraham

[Dilettante]

The terrible dilemma of Abraham has haunted countless thinkers in history, the most famous of them being probably Danish philosopher Sören Kierkegaard. But I bet everyone--that is, except those who never had a belief in the Abrahamic God--has wondered how he or she would act in a situation where God tells you to kill an innocent, perhaps your only child. This is perhaps the most difficult question for believers. I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham (and please remember Abraham didn't know it was just a test) and that anyone who killed his own son today and told the police he had just followed God's orders would rightly be put in a mental institution for life.
I, for one, could not kill an innocent person (let alone one of my children) even if God told me to. What about the rest of forum members?

[Righteous Indignation]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

If your god was Satan himself, you would say the same thing. Tell me how you can be sure your god is not evil.

redundant statement, you could say that about anybody. faith in our creator is the core of any religion.. by our understanding, clearly his ways represent 'good' compared to those of satan. if we cant judge good vs evil from this basis we might as well close the thread! all we have is our own perceptions of good or evil

Well, we may have a problem here. I admit that my culture tells me that God is good and Satan is bad, but my culture frequently is wrong. I am not aware of any inter-voice, instinct, or feeling that would lead me to believe anything about God or Satan. I know that you believe God is good and Satan is bad; but, if I am to make a judgment, some kind of proof or rational is necessary. So, can you validate the statement God is good?

yes, i know he is good because he is good to me. since i've found my faith in God and committed my life to him i've been a different person, truly changed. is this not proof of God's goodness? may seem like a limp or weak statement to you, but can you disagree with someone's personal experience?

No, I can not!

[Righteous Indignation]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

If your god was Satan himself, you would say the same thing. Tell me how you can be sure your god is not evil.

redundant statement, you could say that about anybody. faith in our creator is the core of any religion.. by our understanding, clearly his ways represent 'good' compared to those of satan. if we cant judge good vs evil from this basis we might as well close the thread! all we have is our own perceptions of good or evil

Well, we may have a problem here. I admit that my culture tells me that God is good and Satan is bad, but my culture frequently is wrong. I am not aware of any inter-voice, instinct, or feeling that would lead me to believe anything about God or Satan. I know that you believe God is good and Satan is bad; but, if I am to make a judgment, some kind of proof or rational is necessary. So, can you validate the statement God is good?

yes, i know he is good because he is good to me. since i've found my faith in God and committed my life to him i've been a different person, truly changed. is this not proof of God's goodness? may seem like a limp or weak statement to you, but can you disagree with someone's personal experience?

No, I can not!

But of course, there is always the possibility that your evil God is saving you for some real heinous crime. One day there will be a voice, "I am your Lord, Jesus Christ. I command you to kill your first born." You will be the obedient servant thrusting the knife into your innocent trusting child. Unfortunately, there will be no hand of God to stop you at the last moment like in the story of Abraham and his son. You will be just another crazy religious fanatic who killed his kid because he thought God was testing him.

[pyrite]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

If your god was Satan himself, you would say the same thing. Tell me how you can be sure your god is not evil.

redundant statement, you could say that about anybody. faith in our creator is the core of any religion.. by our understanding, clearly his ways represent 'good' compared to those of satan. if we cant judge good vs evil from this basis we might as well close the thread! all we have is our own perceptions of good or evil

Well, we may have a problem here. I admit that my culture tells me that God is good and Satan is bad, but my culture frequently is wrong. I am not aware of any inter-voice, instinct, or feeling that would lead me to believe anything about God or Satan. I know that you believe God is good and Satan is bad; but, if I am to make a judgment, some kind of proof or rational is necessary. So, can you validate the statement God is good?

yes, i know he is good because he is good to me. since i've found my faith in God and committed my life to him i've been a different person, truly changed. is this not proof of God's goodness? may seem like a limp or weak statement to you, but can you disagree with someone's personal experience?

No, I can not!

But of course, there is always the possibility that your evil God is saving you for some real heinous crime. One day there will be a voice, "I am your Lord, Jesus Christ. I command you to kill your first born." You will be the obedient servant thrusting the knife into your innocent trusting child. Unfortunately, there will be no hand of God to stop you at the last moment like in the story of Abraham and his son. You will be just another crazy religious fanatic who killed his kid because he thought God was testing him.

now you're pushing it

[McCulloch]

But of course, there is always the possibility that your evil God is saving you for some real heinous crime. One day there will be a voice, "I am your Lord, Jesus Christ. I command you to kill your first born." You will be the obedient servant thrusting the knife into your innocent trusting child. Unfortunately, there will be no hand of God to stop you at the last moment like in the story of Abraham and his son. You will be just another crazy religious fanatic who killed his kid because he thought God was testing him.

now you're pushing it

RI makes a valid point. The God you believe in, is recorded as doing exactly what RI described to Abraham. All we want to know, is why you don't think he would do it again. And I agree with RI that there won't be a hand of God there to stop you if you do, like in the story of Abraham.

[pyrite]

But of course, there is always the possibility that your evil God is saving you for some real heinous crime. One day there will be a voice, "I am your Lord, Jesus Christ. I command you to kill your first born." You will be the obedient servant thrusting the knife into your innocent trusting child. Unfortunately, there will be no hand of God to stop you at the last moment like in the story of Abraham and his son. You will be just another crazy religious fanatic who killed his kid because he thought God was testing him.

now you're pushing it

RI makes a valid point. The God you believe in, is recorded as doing exactly what RI described to Abraham. All we want to know, is why you don't think he would do it again. And I agree with RI that there won't be a hand of God there to stop you if you do, like in the story of Abraham.

what is the basis of your belief that God would do it again but not intervene as he did for Abraham? there is no precedent for this

[McCulloch]

But of course, there is always the possibility that your evil God is saving you for some real heinous crime. One day there will be a voice, "I am your Lord, Jesus Christ. I command you to kill your first born." You will be the obedient servant thrusting the knife into your innocent trusting child. Unfortunately, there will be no hand of God to stop you at the last moment like in the story of Abraham and his son. You will be just another crazy religious fanatic who killed his kid because he thought God was testing him.

now you're pushing it

RI makes a valid point. The God you believe in, is recorded as doing exactly what RI described to Abraham. All we want to know, is why you don't think he would do it again. And I agree with RI that there won't be a hand of God there to stop you if you do, like in the story of Abraham.

what is the basis of your belief that God would do it again but not intervene as he did for Abraham? there is no precedent for this

My mistake. If God told you to kill your first-born, I would expect that he would prevent you from completing the act. However, I think that if you or someone else thought that God told them to kill their child, that it it probably would not be God who told them.

[Righteous Indignation]

But of course, there is always the possibility that your evil God is saving you for some real heinous crime. One day there will be a voice, "I am your Lord, Jesus Christ. I command you to kill your first born." You will be the obedient servant thrusting the knife into your innocent trusting child. Unfortunately, there will be no hand of God to stop you at the last moment like in the story of Abraham and his son. You will be just another crazy religious fanatic who killed his kid because he thought God was testing him.

now you're pushing it

RI makes a valid point. The God you believe in, is recorded as doing exactly what RI described to Abraham. All we want to know, is why you don't think he would do it again. And I agree with RI that there won't be a hand of God there to stop you if you do, like in the story of Abraham.

what is the basis of your belief that God would do it again but not intervene as he did for Abraham? there is no precedent for this

Well there is this:

Judges 11:30-39 (NIV)
30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite custom.

It doesn't say nothing about God stopping Jephthah from killing his daughter.

But we also have similar stories in today's news. Here are a few links about mothers who thought they were being commanded by God to kill their children:
Mom Claims God Said to Kill Sons
Murder by God's Command
Woman felt God commanded her to cut off arms, doctor says
Tell me what has been gained by the story of Abraham and his son. I don’t see any moral to the story, just rational for sick minds to kill their children.

People, if God ever tells you to kill, "Just Say No!"

[pyrite]

But of course, there is always the possibility that your evil God is saving you for some real heinous crime. One day there will be a voice, "I am your Lord, Jesus Christ. I command you to kill your first born." You will be the obedient servant thrusting the knife into your innocent trusting child. Unfortunately, there will be no hand of God to stop you at the last moment like in the story of Abraham and his son. You will be just another crazy religious fanatic who killed his kid because he thought God was testing him.

now you're pushing it

RI makes a valid point. The God you believe in, is recorded as doing exactly what RI described to Abraham. All we want to know, is why you don't think he would do it again. And I agree with RI that there won't be a hand of God there to stop you if you do, like in the story of Abraham.

what is the basis of your belief that God would do it again but not intervene as he did for Abraham? there is no precedent for this

Well there is this:

Judges 11:30-39 (NIV)
30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD. Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite custom.

It doesn't say nothing about God stopping Jephthah from killing his daughter.

But we also have similar stories in today's news. Here are a few links about mothers who thought they were being commanded by God to kill their children:
Mom Claims God Said to Kill Sons
Murder by God's Command
Woman felt God commanded her to cut off arms, doctor says
Tell me what has been gained by the story of Abraham and his son. I don’t see any moral to the story, just rational for sick minds to kill their children.

People, if God ever tells you to kill, "Just Say No!"

i was physically sickened by these reports, particularly the second. clearly these people were disturbed.. it's not fair to blame Abraham's story (or God's intervention) for these peoples' actions however. i'm sure they would have found something else to blame it on had such a case not existed. if it wasnt God who told them, it could have been a movie, a videogame or a dead relative speaking to them

[Righteous Indignation]

I was physically sickened by these reports, particularly the second. clearly these people were disturbed. It's not fair to blame Abraham's story (or God's intervention) for these peoples' actions however. I’m sure they would have found something else to blame it on had such a case not existed. if it wasn’t God who told them, it could have been a movie, a video game or a dead relative speaking to them.

I too was sickened by these Pyrite and maybe I have been a little unfair. They probably would have found something else to blame it on. Still, don’t we both wish the Bible’s message was clear enough that there could be no doubt of it’s fault or innocents. Also, I know that for you religion has changed your life for the better, but these women were also very religious. Maybe it’s not for everybody. Maybe if these women had dropped the self-sacrificing self-hating mentality of Christianity and placed a little more value on happiness and pleasure, their lives would have been better. I know, it saved me!

[pyrite]

Maybe if these women had dropped the self-sacrificing self-hating mentality of Christianity and placed a little more value on happiness and pleasure, their lives would have been better

i totally agree. the funny thing is i dont know where Christians got such a mentality.. the Jesus i know is far removed from this. a lot of people seem to forget that he primarily spoke life and freedom rather than legalism and judgment. his opinion of the pharisees should have made this clear enough