Arguing hard against Christianity = Not wanting to believe?

[OnceConvinced]

In another thread, these comments were made to another member:

The reason I can't understand that you are struggling TO believe is because you argue so strongly against the idea. I mean, you don't just raise questions or throw up a mental block now & then - you really argue hard, opposing any possibility, from what I can see on this forum.

The person this was said to said that they were struggling to believe in God, where is Justifyothers believes he is trying not to believe.

So, if a skeptic argues very hard against religion, seeming not to back down, does that mean they don't want to believe? Does it mean they don't want to believe in God?

[bernee51]

Pardon me - pleases don't include me in your guilt trip of 'everyone has sinned"

I have not.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". I am not giving you a guilt trip. I'm stating a fact.
Have you lied, even a little white lie?
Have you stolen anything?
Have you ever been selfish?
Have you ever been angry and done something rash because of it?
Have you ever said "Oh my God"?
Have you ever had sex outside of marriage?
Have you ever cheated?
Gossiped?
Hurt someone?
Been jealous of someone?
Wanted something you don't have?

There's a whole lot more sins, but I've listed enough. I've sinned, you've sinned, everybody has sinned. Saying you haven't is a lie, which is a sin. I'm not trying to include you in any guilt trip - if I were, I wouldn't have said that I have sinned. I'm also not trying to attack you.

That is Paul's opinion and means about as much as anyone and carries the same weight.
Other passages in the Bible call some humans righteous with no mention of being righteous because of faith which would be more like faithfulness or trust not belief.
Given the assumed nature of God by definition everything would fall short of the glory of God.

Pauls opinion? Have you ever met someone who hasn't sinned?

Yes - everyone I meet.

Some of those BELIEVE they have sinned, many do not BELIEVE they have. All wil acknowledge times whent here behaviour could have been better considered.

[onefaith]

I understand completely that you are not trying to attack me. I also understand why you believe all the world is a sinner. I also understand why you believe these things to be sins. I am merely pointing out that you are wrong.

Christianity is, in part, a guilt trip. It is emotional blackmail.

What makes you right and me wrong? You're under the assumption that there is no God, which is the only reason I have seen from you that I am wrong. What if there is a God?
Yes, sin is falling short of God's standards. These standards are still written down, God or no. Sin is basically falling short of those standards. If there is no God, as you believe, those standards are still there, whether you want to follow them or not. Your choice, I'm not going to make you choose what standards to follow. But I can still say people sin. Since I believe in God, you will probably want to just get used to me saying sin exists.
Christianity isn't a guilt trip. I would know, I am one. I'm not trying to guilt trip you. The fact that I was stating is that everyone has fallen short of those standards, God's standards. You don't believe in God, but that sin is still there anyway. So, it's a fact, not just my opinion. If you follow me. I might be a bit confusing right now because I'm extremely tired.
If Christianity is a guilt trip, we "guilt trip" people so that maybe, just maybe, they can go to heaven. I would love for you to go there. I would love for everyone here to go there. I said the same thing to joeyknuccione. He's one of the greatest people I know.
Please, at least try to listen to me and understand where I'm coming from. I may be a very tired, stressed out and somewhat emotional 17 year old but I know what I'm talking about, even though I can't prove it. It's hard debating with a bunch of atheists, no offense

[bernee51]

What makes you right and me wrong? You're under the assumption that there is no God, which is the only reason I have seen from you that I am wrong. What if there is a God?
Yes, sin is falling short of God's standards. These standards are still written down, God or no. Sin is basically falling short of those standards. If there is no God, as you believe, those standards are still there, whether you want to follow them or not. Your choice, I'm not going to make you choose what standards to follow. But I can still say people sin. Since I believe in God, you will probably want to just get used to me saying sin exists.
Christianity isn't a guilt trip. I would know, I am one. I'm not trying to guilt trip you. The fact that I was stating is that everyone has fallen short of those standards, God's standards. You don't believe in God, but that sin is still there anyway. So, it's a fact, not just my opinion. If you follow me. I might be a bit confusing right now because I'm extremely tired.
If Christianity is a guilt trip, we "guilt trip" people so that maybe, just maybe, they can go to heaven. I would love for you to go there. I would love for everyone here to go there. I said the same thing to joeyknuccione. He's one of the greatest people I know.
Please, at least try to listen to me and understand where I'm coming from. I may be a very tired, stressed out and somewhat emotional 17 year old but I know what I'm talking about, even though I can't prove it. It's hard debating with a bunch of atheists, no offense .

No I am not assuming your god does not exist - I KNOW that the god of christianity is a myth. Just like the god's of the Greeks, Romans and Incas. Do you think the gods of the Romans, Greeks and Incas are myths or real? So you see, there isn't a god and as I have said, sin, if it is an offence against god, does not exist

The ‘standards’ of which you speak were written down by men. And different men write down different standards. Why do you not follow the standards in the Koran? You can say ‘all are sinners’ as many times as you like. You can take out a full page ad in the NYT.


But all you can really say is that you BELIEVE people sin.

As to whether or not Christianity is a ‘guilt trip’ would perhaps be a good topic for debate.

Lindsay, I thanks for your kind wishes, however, AFAIAC, I am already in Heaven. And I know very well where you are coming from when you say you ‘know’ its true. I want you to understand that the feelings you have when you say you ‘know’ it is true is no different to mine when I say to you that I know that your god is a myth and I know why it is a myth.

I take no offence at your words and would hope the same for you. Offence is something I rarely (if ever) feel these days.


And yes - talking with those who would challenge your beliefs is can be very difficult. I know - I have been doing it for some time now.

[onefaith]

I "know" people sin, just as you "know" there is no God of Christianity. If you want me to say "I believe" instead of "I know", it would be nice if you did the same. But I'm probably not going to, just because I have enough faith in my religion to say "I know" instead of "I believe". We'll both just have to get used to it.

I'm glad I didn't offend you. If I ever do, feel free to say something.

[JoeyKnothead]

The Bible says folks sin, so there should be no confusing that folks sin. Where the confusion does lie is are these sins actually gonna get this God fellow riled up. I say no, sins are a codification of people's mores, and as such they have been placed under God's purview, in order to shame / scare folks into not doing 'em. I've said it before, one man's sin is another's night with the hot twins.

[bernee51]

I "know" people sin, just as you "know" there is no God of Christianity. If you want me to say "I believe" instead of "I know", it would be nice if you did the same. But I'm probably not going to, just because I have enough faith in my religion to say "I know" instead of "I believe". We'll both just have to get used to it.

Fair enough.

However as I have never seen any evidence of god presented at the level of the physical it means that god can only be assessed of the metaphysical. On this level I can argue that a creator deity is an impossibility so it is on this level that I know god does not exist.

I'm glad I didn't offend you. If I ever do, feel free to say something.

That part of me that would be subject of offence is an illusion. An illusion cannot be offended.

I do however appreciate your thoughts and thank you for them.

[onefaith]

The Bible says folks sin, so there should be no confusing that folks sin. Where the confusion does lie is are these sins actually gonna get this God fellow riled up. I say no, sins are a codification of people's mores, and as such they have been placed under God's purview, in order to shame / scare folks into not doing 'em. I've said it before, one man's sin is another's night with the hot twins.

Your post is confusing me Rephrase?

[Cathar1950]

In another thread, these comments were made to another member:

The reason I can't understand that you are struggling TO believe is because you argue so strongly against the idea. I mean, you don't just raise questions or throw up a mental block now & then - you really argue hard, opposing any possibility, from what I can see on this forum.

The person this was said to said that they were struggling to believe in God, where is Justifyothers believes he is trying not to believe.

So, if a skeptic argues very hard against religion, seeming not to back down, does that mean they don't want to believe? Does it mean they don't want to believe in God?

I think we should all want to know the truth as best we can.
Reason and skepticism are both tools that help us do that as we promote the art of living.
I tend to think belief is involuntary as we can hardly believe something that we don't believe and not (not believe) something we believe.
If you believe something how are you going to undo your belief? You don't because if you do you change your mind and believes something else.
Why would anyone try to believe something they didn't believe or not believe something you believe?
Unless you really don't care about truth or anything like it.
If truth is that relative then what difference is it to believe something about ultimate reality? Maybe it can't be done without the chance of being wrong for all kinds of reasons. I think as limited human beings we are not capable of not being somewhat skeptical about our beliefs in ultimate reality. Of course this doesn't need to stop us from making a commitment to our beliefs always knowing the are subject to change evolution and growth as well as all kinds of misdirections.
Our claims should at least be humble.
I am pretty sure I haven't helped, but I could be wrong.

[Goat]

The Bible says folks sin, so there should be no confusing that folks sin. Where the confusion does lie is are these sins actually gonna get this God fellow riled up. I say no, sins are a codification of people's mores, and as such they have been placed under God's purview, in order to shame / scare folks into not doing 'em. I've said it before, one man's sin is another's night with the hot twins.

Your post is confusing me Rephrase?

Well, what Joe is saying is that according to the Bible, there is sin, but quite often, the items that are considered sin are not explicitly defined (except such things as
eating shrimp, mixing meat with milk, and such like that). There are many things that one person thinks is a sin, yet others think are perfectly fine. For example, Mormons won't drink alcohol, yet the Catholics have wine in the worship.

[JoeyKnothead]

The Bible says folks sin, so there should be no confusing that folks sin. Where the confusion does lie is are these sins actually gonna get this God fellow riled up. I say no, sins are a codification of people's mores, and as such they have been placed under God's purview, in order to shame / scare folks into not doing 'em. I've said it before, one man's sin is another's night with the hot twins.

Your post is confusing me Rephrase?

The Bible says if I do X, then I've sinned, thus to deny that folks 'sin' is a bit off the mark.
Where humans have written the Bible, they have placed their moral code (sins) into it, unless one believes the Bible to be the infallible word of God I suppose. Since I don't believe in God, then I don't believe he can even get riled up when folks sin. These folks who wrote the Bible had their own opinions of what is moral, and they used God, and the threat of His punishment, as an inducement to get others to follow what the writers didn't like.