Would you do this for your kids?

[Ayah5768]

For the sake of this thread, imagine that there is an eternal paradise (Heaven) and an eternal torment (Hell) waiting for us at the other end of this life. Heaven is an actual place where your every desire will happen and you will be unquestionably happy forever. Hell is an actual place where people burn alive forever with no escape, even for a single second.

If the above descriptions are not in line with your views, it has no bearing on this thread. This thread is based on the above versions of Heaven and Hell and the idea that they are real places. Please don't derail us with other possibilities of afterlife or the lack thereof.

Now, for the question...

You get to Heaven and whomever is manning the entryway tells you that your son or daughter will be going to Hell upon their death unless you trade places with them. You can only respond to this with one word--either "yes" or "no".

Will you trade eternal paradise for eternal torment and save your child?

After you've voted, please post and tell us if you said yes or no and why you chose that answer.

[RyanP]

Because I sought knowledge and wisdom and was tired of walking in the dark learning from my own missteps.

So why Christianity? Why not some other religion?

I study other religions and philosophies as well but not with the same dedication and fervor as I do the Bible. I take Christianity by faith and assume that, in time, through meticulous study, devoted prayer, and sincere fellowship, the revelation will more fully come to me and I will bathe in truth. I'm not going to put Christianity off until I know everything about philosophy and religion. Besides, that would be impossible.

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

Because I sought knowledge and wisdom and was tired of walking in the dark learning from my own missteps.

So why Christianity? Why not some other religion?

I study other religions and philosophies as well but not with the same dedication and fervor as I do the Bible. I take Christianity by faith and assume that, in time, through meticulous study, devoted prayer, and sincere fellowship, the revelation will more fully come to me and I will bathe in truth. I'm not going to put Christianity off until I know everything about philosophy and religion. Besides, that would be impossible.

Would you rather act out of relative ignorance? Why make a commitment to Christianity if you do not know or fully understand the other options that have been presented to you? Doesn't it make more sense to gain as much knowledge as possible, then make a decision, rather than feverishly studying one option without knowledge of the others?

[realthinker]

Because I sought knowledge and wisdom and was tired of walking in the dark learning from my own missteps.

So why Christianity? Why not some other religion?

I study other religions and philosophies as well but not with the same dedication and fervor as I do the Bible. I take Christianity by faith and assume that, in time, through meticulous study, devoted prayer, and sincere fellowship, the revelation will more fully come to me and I will bathe in truth. I'm not going to put Christianity off until I know everything about philosophy and religion. Besides, that would be impossible.

Would you rather act out of relative ignorance? Why make a commitment to Christianity if you do not know or fully understand the other options that have been presented to you? Doesn't it make more sense to gain as much knowledge as possible, then make a decision, rather than feverishly studying one option without knowledge of the others?

Of course he would prefer ignorance. He stated so by saying that he takes Christianity by faith. Faith necessitates ignorance. With certainty there is no need for faith. It's far more comforting for one to cling ignorantly to the idea of a deity who, because they are faithful, will make everything all right than it is to take responsibility for one's ignorance.

[OnceConvinced]

Would God accept your child's salvation? Are you trading the Holy Spirit inside of you and giving it to your child? Does that make you God? Are you now the Judge when you decide who has the Holy Spirit? Is your child truly converted in this fashion?

Well this hypothetical question is assuming that God will allow it. God can do anything he likes, he is all powerful and can change the rules as he has on several ocassions.

That's my point! If this hypothetical assumes something God doesn't do, then you are no longer talking about the Christian God so you're no longer even talking about Christianity. The question defeats itself.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. One moment you're agreeing that god can do anything he likes, that he can change the rules and HE HAS in the past, then you are saying that if he changes the rules for Hell, then it's not Christianity. God defines what Christianity is, doesn't he? So if he wants to change something he can. Any way, that is still irrelevent.

Sure, He's omnipotent but He's also just so He can't just change the rules. If He did, He would be a liar and not holy and everything falls apart. God is immutable.

He DOES change the rules. He has before. He changed the rules dramatically when he brought Jesus into the picture. What is just? To you, eternal torture may be a just thing, but to the rest of us, it's is extremely unjust and very evil.

God quite happily put Jesus up as a sacrifice to take our sins for us. We see that God works that way, so why not allow others to sacrifice themselves too?

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

That's simply Paul's biased opinion.

It's not about being blinded. It's about opening your eyes and seeing the bible for what it is - Man's word.

I study other religions and philosophies as well but not with the same dedication and fervor as I do the Bible. I take Christianity by faith and assume that, in time, through meticulous study, devoted prayer, and sincere fellowship, the revelation will more fully come to me and I will bathe in truth. I'm not going to put Christianity off until I know everything about philosophy and religion. Besides, that would be impossible.

Yes. Much like I did. However the meticulous study, devoted prayer, sincere fellowship and revelation brought me to where I am today. Perhaps when you have spent over 30 years doing that, you might also find yourself where I am today.

[RyanP]

Would you rather act out of relative ignorance? Why make a commitment to Christianity if you do not know or fully understand the other options that have been presented to you? Doesn't it make more sense to gain as much knowledge as possible, then make a decision, rather than feverishly studying one option without knowledge of the others?

You have to act out of relative ignorance because omniscience is impossible. Even if your goal isn't to literally know everything at what point are you educated enough to pick a religion (or none)?

Furthermore, Scripture is clear that there will be a time when salvation is too late. Death is like a thief: it will come when you least expect it. It seems foolish to me to wait on knowledge; besides, I declare that pursuit of knowledge is only an excuse to avoid religion altogether rather than to discover more about it.

Religion is practice and to study any religion truly means to practice it and live it, not just read a book about it. I fully believe that if you embark on a quest to understand all philosophy and religion, you will come full circle back to where you started. I intend to take that quest, not because I feel obligated to, but because reading and knowledge give me joy, and, honestly, knowledge brings me closer to knowing the one, true God.

[RyanP]

Faith necessitates ignorance.

If you're going to make a sweeping generalization, at least use a syllogism to support it.

[RyanP]

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4)

That's simply Paul's biased opinion.

It's not about being blinded. It's about opening your eyes and seeing the bible for what it is - Man's word.

Why is it so perverse for the atheist to concede that there just might be a world beyond the physical world? Even Buddhists submit to this idea. In fact, you're in the minority if you believe that what you see is all there is. And that is what Paul is talking about: spiritual things are foolish to the physical world. You have to have a Spirit to "see" the spiritual world.

Anybody with any amount of education has an appreciation for the immensity of knowledge in the world and how much we still don't know. So you atheists at least have to concede that you don't know everything. Now, given that you don't know everything, how can you conclude that religion is false? Obviously, you'll ask me how I conclude it's true to which I say I don't know for certain. That's faith but it isn't ignorance.

[RyanP]

That's my point! If this hypothetical assumes something God doesn't do, then you are no longer talking about the Christian God so you're no longer even talking about Christianity. The question defeats itself.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. One moment you're agreeing that god can do anything he likes, that he can change the rules and HE HAS in the past, then you are saying that if he changes the rules for Hell, then it's not Christianity.

I never said God changes the rules and He never has.

God defines what Christianity is, doesn't he? So if he wants to change something he can. Any way, that is still irrelevent.

No, God can't do anything: He can't sin and He can't lie and it's completely relevant if you want to discuss Christianity at DebatingChristianity.com. If you want to talk about Christianity, you have to stay within doctrine. Outside of doctrine is when it's irrelevant (i.e., the original topic of this thread).

[OnceConvinced]

Furthermore, Scripture is clear that there will be a time when salvation is too late. Death is like a thief: it will come when you least expect it. It seems foolish to me to wait on knowledge;

So we should just believe everything we hear until we prove it otherwise? That seems foolish to me. Perhaps I should become a Muslim based on the reasoning?

The fact is many members here have spent years seeking Christ. I for one have spent over 30 years faithfully serving him. The knowledge I gained was that Christ was not really there at all and that I was deluded.

besides, I declare that pursuit of knowledge is only an excuse to avoid religion altogether rather than to discover more about it.

How is it an excuse to avoid religion? I would declare that knowledge removes the need for faith. Without knowledge you are likely to find yourself living in a delusional world and that is a bad thing as I have found out myself.

You need to do a little study on personality types. You will learn that people operate in different ways. Some people have the ability to live by faith, while others require hard facts before they can believe. You can't expect everyone to be the same, nor can you assume based on your own beliefs that people are trying to avoid beleiving in God.

Religion is practice and to study any religion truly means to practice it and live it, not just read a book about it. I fully believe that if you embark on a quest to understand all philosophy and religion, you will come full circle back to where you started. I intend to take that quest, not because I feel obligated to, but because reading and knowledge give me joy, and, honestly, knowledge brings me closer to knowing the one, true God.

I lived and breathed Christianity for over 30 years of my life. The conclusion I came to is that it is definitely not everything Christians or the bible claim it to be.

[OnceConvinced]

Why is it so perverse for the atheist to concede that there just might be a world beyond the physical world?

Who says it is perverse? If for one see nothing peverse about it. I just see it as very very unlikely.

Even Buddhists submit to this idea. In fact, you're in the minority if you believe that what you see is all there is.

The majority of people in the world once believed the world to be flat. Did that make them right?

If you want to talk about majorities then lets talk about the percentage of people who believe in Christianity. That would be around 30% of mankind (the majority of which don't really follow Christ, but just declare themselves to be Christian). So therefore 70% do not believe in Christianity. I am in that 70% so therefore in the majority, so therefore more likely to be right according to your logic.

What you have there anyway is a logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Populum

And that is what Paul is talking about: spiritual things are foolish to the physical world. You have to have a Spirit to "see" the spiritual world.

No, you don't. All you have to do is have the God glasses on. All you have to do is look at it from a particular perspective. I once looked at it from your perspective, but then I changed perspective. What was quite logical and believable to me when I had the God glasses is now able to be seen as simply wishful thinking.

Anybody with any amount of education has an appreciation for the immensity of knowledge in the world and how much we still don't know.

Yes, as do I, but many of us feel the need to attribute the unknowns to God, especially as more and more of the unknowns have shown over the years to have natural scientific explanations.

So you atheists at least have to concede that you don't know everything.

Well I am no atheist, but I agree. Unfortunately many Christians think they have all the answers and are not willing to look at other possibilities. Once you become a Christian you tend to adopt the mindset that God is the answer for almost everything and you close your mind off to any possibilities that don't line up with the bible. Are you sure you're not closing your mind to other possibilities?

Now, given that you don't know everything, how can you conclude that religion is false?

By spending 30 years deligently believing and living Christinity. Following God, trying to do his will. Experience! Maybe once you have spent 30 years genuinely seeking God you may come to similar conclusions. I know you won't admit that possibility because I was still denying that possibility 3-4 years ago. I completely believed in Christ and that he was real. But now that I have taken a step outside of the Christian bubble I can see it for what it really is. I recommend taking off those God glasses for a bit and you'll see it too.

Obviously, you'll ask me how I conclude it's true to which I say I don't know for certain. That's faith but it isn't ignorance.

I wouldn't call it ignorance. However I would call it delusion. I was once in your shoes.

I never said God changes the rules and He never has.

I said this earlier: "Well this hypothetical question is assuming that God will allow it. God can do anything he likes, he is all powerful and can change the rules as he has on several ocassions."

You then replied with:
"That's my point!" which seems to be agreeing with my above statement.

Ok, you believe that God does not change the rules, but we see in the bible he does. It was a major change of the rules when he brought Jesus into the picture and made him the atonement for sins. Do you not agree he made some major changes to the rules there? Do you not agree that the rules changed when the sabbath law was no longer needed to be kept? Do you agree that God now allows us to eat pork? Do you agree we no longer have to follow a lot of God's others silly rules he made in the OT?

No, God can't do anything: He can't sin and He can't lie and it's completely relevant if you want to discuss Christianity at DebatingChristianity.com. If you want to talk about Christianity, you have to stay within doctrine. Outside of doctrine is when it's irrelevant (i.e., the original topic of this thread).

Now you're just trying to be difficult. When somone says "God can do anything", they are meaning that he can do anything he wants to. Perhaps God has no desire to sin or lie. That's irrelevent to the point of God being all powerful. Do you not agree that God can do anything he likes? That if he wants to change the rules he can? Is God incapable of changing the rules? (even though I have shown you examples of where God has changed the rules in the past)

Anyway, I'd like to pull you up there on your claims that God does not sin and does not lie. The bible talks about how God sends delusions on people and closes off people's minds. There are also many times God commits acts that he would declare are sins for humans.

By the way, you also don't have to stay within doctrine here in the subforum. As far as I'm aware the only sub forum that requires you to stay within doctrine is the "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma" subforum. In that forum, thinking outside the "bible" square is frowned upon.