Bring on World War 3. . .

[achilles12604]

I had an ephinany in church today. I believe I have decided for myself who's side God is on.

But I wanted to throw this out into the water and see where it goes for a bit first.


So the question for debate is this. . .


Who's side is God on? What makes you believe that this is true?

Considering the amount of suffering, poverty, crime, genocide, pestilence, disease, wars, starvation, subjugation, rapes, molestations, etc.... that currently exist globally, I really have to wonder which side He is on as well. If I had to judge it based on humanity, I would have to say that God is on the side of those who would cause harm because He sure isn't providing much protection to those who are trying to do good. But this is strictly MHO.

This made me think. Is the world REALLY this screwed up? Or is the world still decent enough to warrant living in?

If it is as described above, then would it not be better to simply start world war 3, have every launch Nukes, and if any one survives they can start over with a clean (albeit radioactive) slate?

Is this world worth keeping?

[Cogitoergosum]

Is the good of this world all that your GOD is capable of?

Hmm? Is it God's responsibility to provide us with a perfect world?

If so, How would you suggest that he accomplish this task given that Human's are constantly trying to kill each other over the stupidest little things?

One option is a totalitarian dictatorship run by God himself. Do you have any other bright ideas of how to make a perfect world despite human self-destructive behavior?

I wonder if god created us where did we get that self destructive behavior from then?

Wants, greed and egocentric nature.

Perhaps is innate, like gravity is for mass. Could it be a logical impossibility to create an intelligent creature who has a hierarchy of needs but who would also not use violence, extortion, and other "evils" to attain those needs quickly and easily?


I wonder if that is even possible or if a non-self destructive human society is the equivalent of a square triangle or an up down.

Well i can imagine a society that has needs, if those needs are accessible to all individuals then there would not be any need for extortion... to meet them.
Besides your allegation of the self destructive nature of man has been proven false already by the fact that societies are flourishing and improving rather than regressing. If man truly had a self destructive behavior we would not have been around for millions of years.
Christians are all hung up on the inherent sinful nature of man. All good deeds in this world were done by men, not god but men.

[Goat]

Christians are all hung up on the inherent sinful nature of man. All good deeds in this world were done by men, not god but men.

Christians forget in the scriptures that they claimed for their own, Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of "Good AND Evil". They concentrate on the EVIL, and forget the power of knowing GOOD.

It might just be a metaphor.. but the way it is looked at is so unbalanced in Christianity, with their claim of 'original sin' and you need to be 'saved by the grace of God'. So many overlook the opposite side of the coin.

[achilles12604]

Is the good of this world all that your GOD is capable of?

Hmm? Is it God's responsibility to provide us with a perfect world?

If so, How would you suggest that he accomplish this task given that Human's are constantly trying to kill each other over the stupidest little things?

One option is a totalitarian dictatorship run by God himself. Do you have any other bright ideas of how to make a perfect world despite human self-destructive behavior?

I wonder if god created us where did we get that self destructive behavior from then?

Wants, greed and egocentric nature.

Perhaps is innate, like gravity is for mass. Could it be a logical impossibility to create an intelligent creature who has a hierarchy of needs but who would also not use violence, extortion, and other "evils" to attain those needs quickly and easily?


I wonder if that is even possible or if a non-self destructive human society is the equivalent of a square triangle or an up down.

Well i can imagine a society that has needs, if those needs are accessible to all individuals then there would not be any need for extortion... to meet them.
Besides your allegation of the self destructive nature of man has been proven false already by the fact that societies are flourishing and improving rather than regressing. If man truly had a self destructive behavior we would not have been around for millions of years.
Christians are all hung up on the inherent sinful nature of man. All good deeds in this world were done by men, not god but men.

So what happens when the supplies to fulfill the needs is less than needed? What if we are not in times of plenty but rather in times of need?

Example, oil in the 1970's. What happened with regards to fights and tension during a lean time? Your ideas about man progressing is all well and good. But man's life is also becoming easier and the need to compete to survive and maintain is very much lessened. But as soon as our artifical world is no longer intact, human instinct is to survive, even at the cost of those around us.

Am I correct?

[Assent]

War and peace are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other, in the same way that inside cannot exist without outside. Hatred and anger are as much a part of the human experience as peace and happiness.

Conventional war may have gone out of fashion in certain areas of the world, but the competitiveness, patriotism, and xenophobia that fueled it still exist.

Part of the reason that Europe is able to cooperate is because war, aside from other things, is part of the instinct of a growing population to expand and mix races with other areas. Europe's population has been stable and declining for decades now, and so this instinct is absent.

[McCulloch]

War and peace are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other, in the same way that inside cannot exist without outside.

I think and I hope that you are wrong. Peace does not exist because of war nor during war. War destroys whatever peace there may be.

[Assent]

War and peace are two sides of the same coin. One cannot exist without the other, in the same way that inside cannot exist without outside.

I think and I hope that you are wrong. Peace does not exist because of war nor during war. War destroys whatever peace there may be.

And then peace builds what war destroys. Life cannot exist without taking life.

Well, unless it's a plant, anyway. Most of those produce their own life. But then, they only exist because there is a massive furnace in the sky that's burning a finite resource.

Thus, you cannot create anything without first destroying something else. Stone is destroyed to create a statue, paints are mixed and spent and wood and plant fibers are rendered useless for anything else to create pictures, and vast fields of plants are killed yearly to feed humans and their domesticated animals.

War destroys, and peace creates. I will conciede that open war is not the only way to destroy the standing social order in order to replace it, but it is often an effective option. The real question is not how to get one without the other, but rather, is what you wish to create worth more than what you would destroy?

[Cogitoergosum]

Is the good of this world all that your GOD is capable of?

Hmm? Is it God's responsibility to provide us with a perfect world?

If so, How would you suggest that he accomplish this task given that Human's are constantly trying to kill each other over the stupidest little things?

One option is a totalitarian dictatorship run by God himself. Do you have any other bright ideas of how to make a perfect world despite human self-destructive behavior?

I wonder if god created us where did we get that self destructive behavior from then?

Wants, greed and egocentric nature.

Perhaps is innate, like gravity is for mass. Could it be a logical impossibility to create an intelligent creature who has a hierarchy of needs but who would also not use violence, extortion, and other "evils" to attain those needs quickly and easily?


I wonder if that is even possible or if a non-self destructive human society is the equivalent of a square triangle or an up down.

Well i can imagine a society that has needs, if those needs are accessible to all individuals then there would not be any need for extortion... to meet them.
Besides your allegation of the self destructive nature of man has been proven false already by the fact that societies are flourishing and improving rather than regressing. If man truly had a self destructive behavior we would not have been around for millions of years.
Christians are all hung up on the inherent sinful nature of man. All good deeds in this world were done by men, not god but men.

So what happens when the supplies to fulfill the needs is less than needed? What if we are not in times of plenty but rather in times of need?

Example, oil in the 1970's. What happened with regards to fights and tension during a lean time? Your ideas about man progressing is all well and good. But man's life is also becoming easier and the need to compete to survive and maintain is very much lessened. But as soon as our artifical world is no longer intact, human instinct is to survive, even at the cost of those around us.

Am I correct?

It is understandable, knowing human's knack for survival, that when you have limited resources and too many people conflict is the outcome. But why would there be limited resources if God created this world for us?
My point was that this world is exactly how you would expect it to be if there was no God.
Hell in all the known universe to us so far, billions and billions of miles, not one human friendly planet was discovered so far. Hell this planet is not human friendly in many areas. 70% is water, antarctica is too freaking cold, africa with its big sahara, earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes, hurricanes, land slides.....
It is obvious god is trying to take care of us.

[achilles12604]

It is understandable, knowing human's knack for survival, that when you have limited resources and too many people conflict is the outcome. But why would there be limited resources if God created this world for us?
My point was that this world is exactly how you would expect it to be if there was no God.
Hell in all the known universe to us so far, billions and billions of miles, not one human friendly planet was discovered so far. Hell this planet is not human friendly in many areas. 70% is water, antarctica is too freaking cold, africa with its big sahara, earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes, hurricanes, land slides.....
It is obvious god is trying to take care of us.

So we are somehow "entitled" to perfection if God exists? Hmm . . . are you familiar with the TV show "the simple life"? Perhaps the world would indeed be better if it was filled with Hiltons. People who are given every luxury by the all loving God. That would be a great place to live.

I for one don't particularly care that this world is not perfect. Life wouldn't make much sense without some adversity.

[Cogitoergosum]

It is understandable, knowing human's knack for survival, that when you have limited resources and too many people conflict is the outcome. But why would there be limited resources if God created this world for us?
My point was that this world is exactly how you would expect it to be if there was no God.
Hell in all the known universe to us so far, billions and billions of miles, not one human friendly planet was discovered so far. Hell this planet is not human friendly in many areas. 70% is water, antarctica is too freaking cold, africa with its big sahara, earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes, hurricanes, land slides.....
It is obvious god is trying to take care of us.

So we are somehow "entitled" to perfection if God exists? Hmm . . . are you familiar with the TV show "the simple life"? Perhaps the world would indeed be better if it was filled with Hiltons. People who are given every luxury by the all loving God. That would be a great place to live.

I for one don't particularly care that this world is not perfect. Life wouldn't make much sense without some adversity.

You have to admit though that if we were the purpose of creation of an intelligent and loving GOD, the world should be friendlier to us. This world is far from perfect and sometimes far from friendly.
I don't watch the "Simple life". But you have to admit that the more confortable in life you are the less likely you are to cause havoc and misery.
I don't care either that this world is not perfect, it is what it is, and i love what we (humans) have done so far and hopefully we'll keep trying to do better.
Life doesn't make sense without adversity? so does heaven make sense to you?

[achilles12604]

It is understandable, knowing human's knack for survival, that when you have limited resources and too many people conflict is the outcome. But why would there be limited resources if God created this world for us?
My point was that this world is exactly how you would expect it to be if there was no God.
Hell in all the known universe to us so far, billions and billions of miles, not one human friendly planet was discovered so far. Hell this planet is not human friendly in many areas. 70% is water, antarctica is too freaking cold, africa with its big sahara, earthquakes, tornadoes, volcanoes, hurricanes, land slides.....
It is obvious god is trying to take care of us.

So we are somehow "entitled" to perfection if God exists? Hmm . . . are you familiar with the TV show "the simple life"? Perhaps the world would indeed be better if it was filled with Hiltons. People who are given every luxury by the all loving God. That would be a great place to live.

I for one don't particularly care that this world is not perfect. Life wouldn't make much sense without some adversity.

You have to admit though that if we were the purpose of creation of an intelligent and loving GOD, the world should be friendlier to us. This world is far from perfect and sometimes far from friendly.
I don't watch the "Simple life". But you have to admit that the more confortable in life you are the less likely you are to cause havoc and misery.

You mean like Brit or Paris or Lindsay or Tom?

The more comfortable people are in life, the more likely they are to assume that everyone is below them. Which social class has been the cause of most of the worlds persecutions? The lower or the higher?

Also, the more confortable someone is, the less likely they will feel the need to bow to someone else, so a perfectly comfortable world full of Hiltons would not want, or "need" God.