Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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George00
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Human and chimpanzee genetic similarity.

Post #1

Post by George00 »

One of the most common arguments I see presented by supporters of evolution is that human and chimp DNA is around 98% similar. Their similarity is said to be strong evidence in support of common ancestry. And to be fair, the similarity between the two "species" seemed to be well supported by the evidence.

Now, to the point of the thread. The following recently conducted research seems to suggest that humans aren't as genetically similar to each other as previously thought.
Genetic Variation: We're More Different Than We Thought

New research shows that at least 10 percent of genes in the human population can vary in the number of copies of DNA sequences they contain--a finding that alters current thinking that the DNA of any two humans is 99.9 percent similar in content and identity.

In the freely available Database of Genomic Variants, each bar represents a chromosome in the human genome. Blue shows the genomic distribution of copy number variations on each chromosome. Green marks the location of all annotated duplications, and red represents inversions and inversion breakpoints. (Image Credit: Junjun Zhang)


This discovery of the extent of genetic variation, by Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) international research scholar Stephen W. Scherer, and colleagues, is expected to change the way researchers think about genetic diseases and human evolution.

Genes usually occur in two copies, one inherited from each parent. Scherer and colleagues found approximately 2,900 genes--more than 10 percent of the genes in the human genome--with variations in the number of copies of specific DNA segments. These differences in copy number can influence gene activity and ultimately an organism's function.

To get a better picture of exactly how important this type of variation is for human evolution and disease, Scherer's team compared DNA from 270 people with Asian, African, or European ancestry that had been compiled in the HapMap collection and previously used to map the single nucleotide changes in the human genome. Scherer's team mapped the number of duplicated or deleted genes, which they call copy number variations (CNVs). They reported their findings in the November 23, 2006, issue of the journal Nature.

Scherer, a geneticist at the Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, and colleagues searched for CNVs using microarray-based genome scanning techniques capable of finding changes at least 1,000 bases (nucleotides) long. A base, or nucleotide, is the fundamental building block of DNA. They found an average of 70 CNVs averaging 250,000 nucleotides in size in each DNA sample. In all, the group identified 1,447 different CNVs that collectively covered about 12 percent of the human genome and six to 19 percent of any given chromosome--far more widespread than previously thought.

Not only were the changes common, they also were large. "We'd find missing pieces of DNA, some a million or so nucleotides long," Scherer said. "We used to think that if you had big changes like this, then they must be involved in disease. But we are showing that we can all have these changes."

The group found nearly 16 percent of known disease-related genes in the CNVs, including genes involved in rare genetic disorders such as DiGeorge, Angelman, Williams-Beuren, and Prader-Willi syndromes, as well as those linked with schizophrenia, cataracts, spinal muscular atrophy, and atherosclerosis.

In related research published November 23, 2006, in an advance online publication in Nature Genetics, Scherer and colleagues also compared the two human genome maps--one assembled by Celera Genomics, Inc., and one from the public Human Genome Project. They found thousands of differences.

"Other people have [compared the two human genome sequences]," Scherer said, "but they found so many differences that they mostly attributed the results to error. They couldn't believe the alterations they found might be variants between the sources of DNA being analyzed."

A lot of the differences are indeed real, and they raise a red flag, he said.

Personalized genome sequencing--for individualized diagnosis, treatment, and prevention of disease--is not far off, Scherer pointed out. "The idea [behind comparing the human genome sequences] was to come up with a good understanding of what we're going to get when we do [personalized sequencing]," he explained. "This paper helps us think about how complex it will be."
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 115741.htm


So my question is....

If human beings are less genetically similar to each other than previously thought, does this imply that scientists might have been wrong in thinking humans and chimps are 98% similar?



PS- Yes, I realize the article I posted is far from the final word on the matter. I also realize that the point I am making is far from what would be required to falsify evolution or common ancestry. Nonetheless, I thought it would be an interesting subject for discussion here.

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Post #31

Post by Goat »

Biker wrote:
What about the fallacy of "scientific incredibility". It has no basis except the theory put forth as "science"despite the millon year gap(s) plural in the "supposed" fossil record, that "science" has placed faith in.Faith meaning-"the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
What has always bothered me is the absence of these DNA mutations that should be plainly evident right now today of various examples of in betweeners of ape-man.Why is there no evidence at all of this?

Biker
Your ignorance of biology not withstanding, there are plenty of evidence above and beyond the fossil record. There is the DNA record. There are examples of the 'betweeners' between man and ape. Of course, part of the problem with much of the information is that the jungle forest is not a good medium for the getting bodies that fossilize. Never the less, here is a web site that is a jumping off point with much of the evidence you say does not exist.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

There is also the evidence of comparing the genome of the chimp to the genome of homo sapian sapian.

AB

Post #32

Post by AB »

goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
What about the fallacy of "scientific incredibility". It has no basis except the theory put forth as "science"despite the millon year gap(s) plural in the "supposed" fossil record, that "science" has placed faith in.Faith meaning-"the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
What has always bothered me is the absence of these DNA mutations that should be plainly evident right now today of various examples of in betweeners of ape-man.Why is there no evidence at all of this?

Biker
Your ignorance of biology not withstanding, there are plenty of evidence above and beyond the fossil record. There is the DNA record. There are examples of the 'betweeners' between man and ape. Of course, part of the problem with much of the information is that the jungle forest is not a good medium for the getting bodies that fossilize. Never the less, here is a web site that is a jumping off point with much of the evidence you say does not exist.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

There is also the evidence of comparing the genome of the chimp to the genome of homo sapian sapian.
The entertaining part of this is how some people will put so much weight and emphasis on dicey fossil possibilities, but when it comes to actual people writing about an event(like in the bible) they will do all they can to denounce it.

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Cathar1950
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Post #33

Post by Cathar1950 »

AB wrote:
goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
What about the fallacy of "scientific incredibility". It has no basis except the theory put forth as "science"despite the millon year gap(s) plural in the "supposed" fossil record, that "science" has placed faith in.Faith meaning-"the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
What has always bothered me is the absence of these DNA mutations that should be plainly evident right now today of various examples of in betweeners of ape-man.Why is there no evidence at all of this?

Biker
Your ignorance of biology not withstanding, there are plenty of evidence above and beyond the fossil record. There is the DNA record. There are examples of the 'betweeners' between man and ape. Of course, part of the problem with much of the information is that the jungle forest is not a good medium for the getting bodies that fossilize. Never the less, here is a web site that is a jumping off point with much of the evidence you say does not exist.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

There is also the evidence of comparing the genome of the chimp to the genome of homo sapian sapian.
The entertaining part of this is how some people will put so much weight and emphasis on dicey fossil possibilities, but when it comes to actual people writing about an event(like in the bible) they will do all they can to denounce it.
Depending on what claims are made of the collection of a few books by a group of people, it may have to be denounced in many matters. Because none of the ancient stories are witnessess of an event that relates to fossils. When claiming they are recording events, they have mixed stories and the dates are usually thousands of years from the tales. Many are reworked tales of gods. Many have known political agenda tangled in he mythology and religion. Why don't read the older clay stories and take them as serious as you want everyone else to take yours when it comes to fossils?

AB

Post #34

Post by AB »

Cathar1950 wrote:
AB wrote:
goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
What about the fallacy of "scientific incredibility". It has no basis except the theory put forth as "science"despite the millon year gap(s) plural in the "supposed" fossil record, that "science" has placed faith in.Faith meaning-"the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
What has always bothered me is the absence of these DNA mutations that should be plainly evident right now today of various examples of in betweeners of ape-man.Why is there no evidence at all of this?

Biker
Your ignorance of biology not withstanding, there are plenty of evidence above and beyond the fossil record. There is the DNA record. There are examples of the 'betweeners' between man and ape. Of course, part of the problem with much of the information is that the jungle forest is not a good medium for the getting bodies that fossilize. Never the less, here is a web site that is a jumping off point with much of the evidence you say does not exist.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

There is also the evidence of comparing the genome of the chimp to the genome of homo sapian sapian.
The entertaining part of this is how some people will put so much weight and emphasis on dicey fossil possibilities, but when it comes to actual people writing about an event(like in the bible) they will do all they can to denounce it.
Depending on what claims are made of the collection of a few books by a group of people, it may have to be denounced in many matters. Because none of the ancient stories are witnessess of an event that relates to fossils. When claiming they are recording events, they have mixed stories and the dates are usually thousands of years from the tales. Many are reworked tales of gods. Many have known political agenda tangled in he mythology and religion. Why don't read the older clay stories and take them as serious as you want everyone else to take yours when it comes to fossils?
Gospels were written around 50-90 AD. Just because they were actually written after the fact doesn't make them wrong.. as some would just love to build in. Eye witnesses were dieing off and it was time to get the story in writing for future generations to know. As I am sure you know, 2 of the authors walked with Jesus. 2 others wrote for apostles. 4 texts of the same event. Of course, naturally, when you have 4 different people writing of an event there are certain aspects that one will include while another will not. Or tell in a more understandable way for their audience(ie. matthew was writing to the jews, while luke's was writing to the gentiles). But those are natural nuances. The account of the gospel is intact without meaningful contradiction.

I disagree that the 4 gospels are "claims". They are accounts. There is much evidence in the structure of the text to support this. The fact of there being 4 different authors written at different times argues against the gospel being "claims".

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Post #35

Post by QED »

AB wrote:The entertaining part of this is how some people will put so much weight and emphasis on dicey fossil possibilities, but when it comes to actual people writing about an event(like in the bible) they will do all they can to denounce it.
But AB, any one of us can go out and rent a 4x4 SUV, a tent and some paleontologists tools and dig up the same sort of material being presented by others as evidence. We can in principle therefore run a complete check from top to bottom on what is being presented to us. Checking on those supernatural events described in the bible is not possible even in principle.

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Post #36

Post by Goat »

AB wrote:
goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
What about the fallacy of "scientific incredibility". It has no basis except the theory put forth as "science"despite the millon year gap(s) plural in the "supposed" fossil record, that "science" has placed faith in.Faith meaning-"the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."
What has always bothered me is the absence of these DNA mutations that should be plainly evident right now today of various examples of in betweeners of ape-man.Why is there no evidence at all of this?

Biker
Your ignorance of biology not withstanding, there are plenty of evidence above and beyond the fossil record. There is the DNA record. There are examples of the 'betweeners' between man and ape. Of course, part of the problem with much of the information is that the jungle forest is not a good medium for the getting bodies that fossilize. Never the less, here is a web site that is a jumping off point with much of the evidence you say does not exist.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

There is also the evidence of comparing the genome of the chimp to the genome of homo sapian sapian.
The entertaining part of this is how some people will put so much weight and emphasis on dicey fossil possibilities, but when it comes to actual people writing about an event(like in the bible) they will do all they can to denounce it.
It is definately ironic that some people , when talkign about an alledged event, totally trust one book, but will accept anything it says without any physical evidence at all, or without any external conformation about it. This is particularly ironic if the event they believe in is shown to be physcially impossible, like walking on water, or turning sticks into snakes.

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Post #37

Post by Cathar1950 »

AB wrote:Gospels were written around 50-90 AD. Just because they were actually written after the fact doesn't make them wrong.. as some would just love to build in. Eye witnesses were dieing off and it was time to get the story in writing for future generations to know. As I am sure you know, 2 of the authors walked with Jesus. 2 others wrote for apostles. 4 texts of the same event. Of course, naturally, when you have 4 different people writing of an event there are certain aspects that one will include while another will not. Or tell in a more understandable way for their audience(ie. matthew was writing to the jews, while luke's was writing to the gentiles). But those are natural nuances. The account of the gospel is intact without meaningful contradiction.

I disagree that the 4 gospels are "claims". They are accounts. There is much evidence in the structure of the text to support this. The fact of there being 4 different authors written at different times argues against the gospel being "claims".
You think the gospels were written then, many that do not have an agenda put them between 70 and 150 CE. None are mentioned by anyone until the second century and they are no copies before then. Mark has often been reworked to fit later gospels and was the first one used by others such as Luke and Matthew.
You do not have 4 different people writing of event but fictions using Hebrew writings. They are not claims or events they are fictions invented for Christian consumption.

Biker

Post #38

Post by Biker »

QED wrote:
AB wrote:The entertaining part of this is how some people will put so much weight and emphasis on dicey fossil possibilities, but when it comes to actual people writing about an event(like in the bible) they will do all they can to denounce it.
But AB, any one of us can go out and rent a 4x4 SUV, a tent and some paleontologists tools and dig up the same sort of material being presented by others as evidence. We can in principle therefore run a complete check from top to bottom on what is being presented to us. Checking on those supernatural events described in the bible is not possible even in principle.
[Quote "We can in principle therefore run a complete check from top to bottom on what is being presented to us."[unquote] No you can't.You can't in fact, and not in principle. If you assume million year gaps, to agree with your speculation, you still can't explain why there are not any evidence of ongoing evolutionary progression plainly measurable before our eyes of subjects in various degrees of evolutionary stages.
We have either clearly man, or clearly ape, nothing in between.Why not various degree's of ape to man, not in the fossil record, but something I can see?I disagree with your statement "in principle", regarding material, and writings on historical events in the Bible.It takes greater faith in the unseen to believe theory of evolution, than the Bible.
I also think that modern science would welcome creation science,in keeping with the truth of scientific endeavor, if for no other reason than to put it to the test scientifically.

Biker

Biker

Post #39

Post by Biker »

Cathar1950 wrote:
AB wrote:Gospels were written around 50-90 AD. Just because they were actually written after the fact doesn't make them wrong.. as some would just love to build in. Eye witnesses were dieing off and it was time to get the story in writing for future generations to know. As I am sure you know, 2 of the authors walked with Jesus. 2 others wrote for apostles. 4 texts of the same event. Of course, naturally, when you have 4 different people writing of an event there are certain aspects that one will include while another will not. Or tell in a more understandable way for their audience(ie. matthew was writing to the jews, while luke's was writing to the gentiles). But those are natural nuances. The account of the gospel is intact without meaningful contradiction.

I disagree that the 4 gospels are "claims". They are accounts. There is much evidence in the structure of the text to support this. The fact of there being 4 different authors written at different times argues against the gospel being "claims".
You think the gospels were written then, many that do not have an agenda put them between 70 and 150 CE. None are mentioned by anyone until the second century and they are no copies before then. Mark has often been reworked to fit later gospels and was the first one used by others such as Luke and Matthew.
You do not have 4 different people writing of event but fictions using Hebrew writings. They are not claims or events they are fictions invented for Christian consumption.
Another round of Cathar SPECULATION.

Biker

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Post #40

Post by Goat »

Biker wrote:
Cathar1950 wrote:
AB wrote:Gospels were written around 50-90 AD. Just because they were actually written after the fact doesn't make them wrong.. as some would just love to build in. Eye witnesses were dieing off and it was time to get the story in writing for future generations to know. As I am sure you know, 2 of the authors walked with Jesus. 2 others wrote for apostles. 4 texts of the same event. Of course, naturally, when you have 4 different people writing of an event there are certain aspects that one will include while another will not. Or tell in a more understandable way for their audience(ie. matthew was writing to the jews, while luke's was writing to the gentiles). But those are natural nuances. The account of the gospel is intact without meaningful contradiction.

I disagree that the 4 gospels are "claims". They are accounts. There is much evidence in the structure of the text to support this. The fact of there being 4 different authors written at different times argues against the gospel being "claims".
You think the gospels were written then, many that do not have an agenda put them between 70 and 150 CE. None are mentioned by anyone until the second century and they are no copies before then. Mark has often been reworked to fit later gospels and was the first one used by others such as Luke and Matthew.
You do not have 4 different people writing of event but fictions using Hebrew writings. They are not claims or events they are fictions invented for Christian consumption.
Another round of Cathar SPECULATION.

Biker
Do you have any substantial evidence to the contrary? How about some extra-biblical evidence from before the Jewish Revolt?

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