The Urantia Book – fact or fiction?

[Easyrider]

The Urantia Book – fact or fiction?

Your world, Urantia, [Earth] is one of many similar inhabited planets which comprise the local universe of Nebadon. This universe, together with similar creations, makes up the superuniverse of Orvonton, from whose capital, Uversa, our commission hails. Divine Counselor - The URANTIA Book, Page 1

There are conflicting stories ["various histories"] regarding the origin of the Urantia Papers. According to long-time faithful, Ernest Moyer (author of a book on the group's beginnings entitled THE BIRTH OF A DIVINE REVELATION--The Mechanical Origin of the Urantia Papers), information similar to that found in the Urantia Book was communicated by various "spirit beings" using a male individual ("contact person") while that person slept (a.k.a. Sleeping Subject "SS"). This communication was but a preparatory exercise. Beginning 1905-11 and over a 20+ year period, divine "revelations" were hand-recorded by a Dr. William S. Sadler, a noted Chicago physician and psychiatrist.

Interestingly, while (founder) Sadler was later willing to discuss in detail the transmission of The URANTIA Book, he refused to reveal two crucial facts: 1) the name of the individual who was used by the revelators as the channel between the revelators and the Contact Commission, and 2) the specific way in which the papers that formed The URANTIA Book appeared.10

http://www.watchman.org/profile/urantiapro.htm

The Urantia Book – fact or fiction?

[harvey1]

Do you think Paul had an experience with the blazing light of the risen person of Christ on the Damascus road? After all, that is the foundation experience of Paul's conversion per his own claims and led him to stop persecuting the early followers of Jesus and to become one of them?

Paul doesn't describe this incident in any of his letters, however Paul does describe his conversion as follows:

I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. But when God, who set me apart from birth[a] and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. hen after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days. I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? (I Cor. 9:1)

Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. (I Cor. 15:7-10)

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses. Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say. (II Cor. 12:1-6)

So, based on these events which I don't think Paul lied about, I'd say that Paul had some mystical experiences of the risen Christ that converted him to Christianity. Whether there is any truth to the Damascus conversion, I don't think we have enough information to say. All we can state with any certainty is what Paul states in these passages I just quoted.

[Rob]

The single most important element in understanding the ministry of Paul is his commission at the time of his conversion and call. His charge to preach to Gentiles, given during his Damascus Road experience (Acts 26:17) and repeated while Paul was in the temple in Jerusalem (Acts 22:17-21), constituted the driving force of his life, the purpose of his existence, and the central focus of his theology (cf. Rom. 1:13-17; 15:8, 16; Gal. 1:16). The fact that there is a triple account of Paul's conversion in Acts is remarkable when one considers the brevity of the book. Luke's descision to record the conversion himself (Acts 9) and then add two accounts of it from the mouth of Paul (Acts 22 and 26) can only be explained by the importance he attached to the event in understanding Paul's ministry. Luke's accounts are supplemented by details Paul himself supplies in Galatians. (McRay 2004: 46)

Paul was traveling from Jerusalem to Damascus with letters from the high priest authorizing him to arrest Jewish Christians and imprison them for accepting the blasphemous new teaching. That Paul should go so far on such a mission lends added meaning to his comment that he was "extremely zealous" for the traditions of his fathers (Gal. 1:14). Before reaching his destination, Paul was blinded by the Christophany, and his life was changed. The risen Lord, Jesus Christ, spoke to him in Hebrew (or Aramaic) and called him to be one of his apostles. At his time Paul was commissioned to go to the Gentiles and proclaim to them the Christian faith (Acts 26:16-18; cf. 9:15). He was told to go into Damascus to receive further instructions (Acts 22:10; 9:6), which he got from a Jewish believer named Ananias. Paul describes him as "a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there" (Acts 22:12). After three days of blindness and fasting, Paul was immersed by Ananias for the "washing away of his sins" and received his sight again (Acts 9:9, 18; 22:16). He then spent a period of time in Damascus and then in Arabia, the purpose of which is not recorded, before returning first to Damascus and then to Jerusalem (Gal. 1:17). (McRay 2004: 46-47)

-- 1. McRay, John. Paul: His Life and Teaching. Second ed. Baker Academic; 2004; p. 46.

Paul based his authority on the appearance to him of the resurrected Christ commissioning him to be an apostle to the Gentiles, for this experience made everything else seem to him irrelevant. [1 Cor. 5:16-17] (Robinson 2005: 209-210)

-- 1. Robinson, James M. The Gospel of Jesus: In Search of the Original Good News. New York: HarperCollins; 2005; pp. 209-210.

So, based on these events which I don't think Paul lied about, I'd say that Paul had some mystical experiences of the risen Christ that converted him to Christianity. Whether there is any truth to the Damascus conversion, I don't think we have enough information to say. All we can state with any certainty is what Paul states in these passages I just quoted.

Indeed, Luke, rather than Paul may be the one that wrote about his conversion experience, but it is reasonable given the general belief by scholars that Luke was a companion of Paul that these experiences were described to Luke by Paul, and since Paul attests to this in his own words, I think it is fair to say that the record states that Paul indeed claims to have had a "revelation from Jesus Christ" in which the "risen Lord, Jesus Christ, spoke to him ... and called him to be one of his apostles."

I have studied comparative religion and philosophy of religion for over 30+ years now Harvey, and I think you are not accurately characterizing the claims being purported by Luke about Paul's witness when you characterize Paul's experience as "mystical." Paul (if we are to trust Luke's words) clearly refers to this experience as a "revelation," not as some vague mystical experience of some pantheistic oneness with the universe. He describes an encounter with a person, the "risen Lord, Jesus Christ," whom we can only assume refers to the Jesus of Nazerath of the gospels. That is a more accurate description of the claims being made by Paul.

Indeed, it may be your interpretation that Paul had "some mystical experiences of the risen Christ," but to be fair Paul claimed to have experienced a revelation of the person of the risen Christ. Replacing Paul's description of his own experience as a "revelation" with your description of it as "some mystical experience of the risen Christ" does not really change the fact that Paul claims to have experienced personallly the risen person of Jesus of Nazerath as the Lord Jesus Christ in a blazing light (glorified celestial form), now does it?

So at least let us both be clear and honest about the actual claims being made in the biblical record, which is the only source we have regarding Paul's experience and teachings, irregardless of what interpretation you may have about it. There is a difference, and that difference is important, even if you may be correct that Paul's experience was just "some mystical experience." Now I don't know about you Harvey, but if I was walking down the road and a celestial being appeared to me in a blazing light and spoke to me, and I knew I was not crazy, I wouldn't think I had just had "some mystical experience," I would flat out think I had just experienced a "revelation" of a divine being.

My point is Harvey, Paul, whom you trust is telling the truth, claims to have had personally a revelatory experience of the person of the risen Jesus Christ who spoke to him. Now, I understand what you are saying Harvey, that based upon reason and logic alone, and upon the intellectual examination of the scriptural records that "All we can state with any certainty is what Paul states in these passages" found in the scripture.

So let us be honest here Harvey. You state that you trust Paul's words and "don't think Paul lied" about this experience, and Paul in his own words claims to have experienced the revelation of the divine celestial form of the risen Jesus Christ. He is claiming to have encountered the risen Jesus who has survived mortal death and revealed (hence revelation) himself in a new celestial and divine form.

I will be fully open with you Harvey. I have sat in prayer, meditation, and worship a thousand times and experienced spiritual insight, peace, joy, and even "some mystical experience" of being one with reality; but only once in the beginning of my search for the living God and in response to the sincere and wholehearted desire to know if God existed and was real have I experienced the Light, that "true light which lights every man who comes into the world." (John 1:8) And in that Light I came to know with certainty through personal experience the difference between "some mystical experience," philosophical speculation, and the living experience of the living God and the realization that Jesus Christ was truly who he claimed he was, a divine Son of God, and truly he is the risen Lord.

You claim that Christianity is the most reasonable religion, and perhaps you may be right. So I ask you, if you trust Paul's words Harvey, do you also believe then that Jesus rose form the dead and appeared to Paul in divine form? Or at least, do you hope his words are true?

I think that in addition to content, we have to judge divine inspiration on other factors. "By their fruits you shall know them."

Indeed Harvey, I agree with you. The only evidence that someone truly knows God or are one of Christ's living vines is by the fruits of the spirit that they bear in their daily lives and bring forth in their relationships with their fellows. While we may never be fully intellectually conscious of the work of the indwelling spirit in out lives, this does not disprove the presence of the still small voice that leads in the ways of righteousness. The only proof that the divine spirit indwells us consists wholly in the nature and extent of the fruits of the spirit which are yielded in the life experience of such a believer. Indeed, Harvey, "By their fruits you shall know them."

"As to my message and the teaching of my disciples, you should judge them by their fruits. If we proclaim to you the truths of the spirit, the spirit will witness in your hearts that our message is genuine. Concerning the kingdom and your assurance of acceptance by the heavenly Father, let me ask what father among you who is a worthy and kindhearted father would keep his son in anxiety or suspense regarding his status in the family or his place of security in the affections of his father's heart? Do you earth fathers take pleasure in torturing your children with uncertainty about their place of abiding love in your human hearts? Neither does your Father in heaven leave his faith children of the spirit in doubtful uncertainty as to their position in the kingdom. If you receive God as your Father, then indeed and in truth are you the sons of God. And if you are sons, then are you secure in the position and standing of all that concerns eternal and divine sonship. If you believe my words, you thereby believe in Him who sent me, and by thus believing in the Father, you have made your status in heavenly citizenship sure. If you do the will of the Father in heaven, you shall never fail in the attainment of the eternal life of progress in the divine kingdom. (1601.2)

"The ... Spirit shall bear witness with your spirits that you are truly the children of God. And if you are the sons of God, then have you been born of the spirit of God; and whosoever has been born of the spirit has in himself the power to overcome all doubt, and this is the victory that overcomes all uncertainty, even your faith. (1601.3)

"Said the Prophet Isaiah, speaking of these times: `When the spirit is poured upon us from on high, then shall the work of righteousness become peace, quietness, and assurance forever.' And for all who truly believe this gospel, I will become surety for their reception into the eternal mercies and the everlasting life of my Father's kingdom. You, then, who hear this message and believe this gospel of the kingdom are the sons of God, and you have life everlasting; and the evidence to all the world that you have been born of the spirit is that you sincerely love one another." (1601.4)

"Peace be upon you. You rejoice to know that I am the resurrection and the life, but this will avail you nothing unless you are first born of the eternal spirit, thereby coming to possess, by faith, the gift of eternal life. If you are the faith sons of my Father, you shall never die; you shall not perish. The gospel of the kingdom has taught you that all men are the sons of God. And this good news concerning the love of the heavenly Father for his children on earth must be carried to all the world. The time has come when you worship God neither on Gerizim nor at Jerusalem, but where you are, as you are, in spirit and in truth. It is your faith that saves your souls. Salvation is the gift of God to all who believe they are his sons. But be not deceived; while salvation is the free gift of God and is bestowed upon all who accept it by faith, there follows the experience of bearing the fruits of this spirit life as it is lived in the flesh. The acceptance of the doctrine of the fatherhood of God implies that you also freely accept the associated truth of the brotherhood of man. And if man is your brother, he is even more than your neighbor, whom the Father requires you to love as yourself. Your brother, being of your own family, you will not only love with a family affection, but you will also serve as you would serve yourself. And you will thus love and serve your brother because you, being my brethren, have been thus loved and served by me. Go, then, into all the world telling this good news to all creatures of every race, tribe, and nation. My spirit shall go before you, and I will be with you always." (2053.4)

"Peace be upon you. You rejoice to know that the Son of Man has risen from the dead because you thereby know that you and your brethren shall also survive mortal death. But such survival is dependent on your having been previously born of the spirit of truth-seeking and God-finding. The bread of life and the water thereof are given only to those who hunger for truth and thirst for righteousness--for God. The fact that the dead rise is not the gospel of the kingdom. These great truths and these universe facts are all related to this gospel in that they are a part of the result of believing the good news and are embraced in the subsequent experience of those who, by faith, become, in deed and in truth, the everlasting sons of the eternal God. My Father sent me into the world to proclaim this salvation of sonship to all men. And so send I you abroad to preach this salvation of sonship. Salvation is the free gift of God, but those who are born of the spirit will immediately begin to show forth the fruits of the spirit in loving service to their fellow creatures. And the fruits of the divine spirit which are yielded in the lives of spirit-born and God-knowing mortals are: loving service, unselfish devotion, courageous loyalty, sincere fairness, enlightened honesty, undying hope, confiding trust, merciful ministry, unfailing goodness, forgiving tolerance, and enduring peace. If professed believers bear not these fruits of the divine spirit in their lives, they are dead; the Spirit of Truth is not in them; they are useless branches on the living vine, and they soon will be taken away. My Father requires of the children of faith that they bear much spirit fruit. If, therefore, you are not fruitful, he will dig about your roots and cut away your unfruitful branches. Increasingly, must you yield the fruits of the spirit as you progress heavenward in the kingdom of God. You may enter the kingdom as a child, but the Father requires that you grow up, by grace, to the full stature of spiritual adulthood. And when you go abroad to tell all nations the good news of this gospel, I will go before you, and my Spirit of Truth shall abide in your hearts. My peace I leave with you." (2054.3)

[Colter]

I will be fully open with you Harvey. I have sat in prayer, meditation, and worship a thousand times and experienced spiritual insight, peace, joy, and even \"some mystical experience\" of being one with reality; but only once in the beginning of my search for the living God and in response to the sincere and wholehearted desire to know if God existed and was real have I experienced the Light, that \"true light which lights every man who comes into the world.\" (John 1:8) And in that Light I came to know through personal experience the difference between \"some mystical experience,\" philosophical speculation, and the living experience of the living God and the realization that Jesus Christ was truly who he claimed he was, a divine Son of God, and truly he is Lord.

I second that experience. The same thing happened to me April 28th 1985. At that time I did not know what a conversion experience was nor had I ever read any accounts of Pauls conversion. In the depths of alcoholic and drug addicted despair the spirit came upon me and the light has been on ever sense that day. I have not had a drink or elligal drug in my body sense then. It is much more than belief.

Colter

[Bro Dave]

Gentlemen, please forgive my absense, but having lost my employment, I have little free time for discussions. I just wanted you to know I have not abandoned you all!

Hoping to contribute again soon,

Bro Dave

[Rob]

I am sorry to hear you lost your employment Dave. I hope that things work out for you soon.

Rob

[harvey1]

Paul (if we are to trust Luke's words) clearly refers to this experience as a "revelation," not as some vague mystical experience of some pantheistic oneness with the universe. He describes an encounter with a person, the "risen Lord, Jesus Christ," whom we can only assume refers to the Jesus of Nazerath of the gospels. That is a more accurate description of the claims being made by Paul.

I don't see a conflict here. There are many types of mystical experiences and some mystical experiences can include revelations.

Now I don't know about you Harvey, but if I was walking down the road and a celestial being appeared to me in a blazing light and spoke to me, and I knew I was not crazy, I wouldn't think I had just had "some mystical experience," I would flat out think I had just experienced a "revelation" of a divine being.

As I said, the comments from Paul do not confirm the three different stories in Acts of Paul's conversion. So, I think it is safer to look only at Paul's comments on his conversion, and not assume facts beyond those comments.

So I ask you, if you trust Paul's words Harvey, do you also believe then that Jesus rose form the dead and appeared to Paul in divine form? Or at least, do you hope his words are true?

Yes, I believe Paul when he says that he saw the risen Lord. I see no reason to believe that he was lying or exaggerating.

[Rob]

Yes, I believe Paul when he says that he saw the risen Lord. I see no reason to believe that he was lying or exaggerating.

And neither do I see any reason to not believe Paul's personal experience of the revelation of the risen Lord. And my own personal experience confirms his words are true.

So Harvey, what say you with regards to the risen Christ. If you believe the words of Paul that he experienced a revelation of the risen Lord in divine form, do you believe that Jesus Christ lives even now in a risen spiritual form? It seems a logical conclusion from your words above, does it not?

If you believe Paul's words that he experienced a revelation of the risen Christ, then I ask you Harvey, was the risen Christ a celestial being or terrestrial being when he revealed himself by appearing to Paul?

And prior to his incarnation in human form Harvey, was Christ a divine celestial being (even our Lord and Creator) or was he a terrestrial being?

Personally, I not only believe he is our Creator who incarnated in human form, rose from the dead and now lives in divine form, and is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but has bestowed his Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to guide and lead us into all truth.

[harvey1]

So Harvey, what say you with regards to the risen Christ. If you believe the words of Paul that he experienced a revelation of the risen Lord in divine form, do you believe that Jesus Christ lives even now in a risen spiritual form? It seems a logical conclusion from your words above, does it not?

Yes, I believe that Jesus was the "first" one ever resurrected from the dead, and that all afterlife is a consequence of Jesus.

If you believe Paul's words that he experienced a revelation of the risen Christ, then I ask you Harvey, was the risen Christ a celestial being or terrestrial being when he revealed himself by appearing to Paul?

I don't think he was either. I think Jesus and all those who live on into the next world are on the "z-axis." By celestial I understand that as a "y-coordinate," and by terrestrial I understand that as an "x-coordinate." None of that applies with regard to the afterlife where our space-time geometry is limited only to our world. (Btw, x,y,z-axis talk is just analogies.)

And prior to his incarnation in human form Harvey, was Christ a divine celestial being (even our Lord and Creator) or was he a terrestrial being?

I personally don't think there was a "prior" existence since I think that temporal becoming is closer to an illusion (but not quite an illusion since it exists). A more accurate way of putting it is that temporal becoming is a reference frame embedded in a timeless geometry. For the Logos there "just is" this instance of being instantiated in the person of Jesus within this embedded reference frame.

Personally, I not only believe he is our Creator who incarnated in human form, rose from the dead and now lives in divine form, and is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but has bestowed his Spirit of Truth, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, to guide and lead us into all truth.

Yes, but what does this Christian view have to do with planet Zargon and the Zargonites sending messages to Urantia to warn the inhabitants of the Packman invasion, etc..?