[
Replying to post 35 by Danmark]
I will reply in Red text
heavensgate wrote:
We had Nietzsche advocating much of the Nazi ideology well before Hitler,....
Repeating this misinformation is academically reckless.
I am confused. Why would a simple statement like that be reckless? Have you read any of Nietzsche’s stuff? I have to ask as some times we may all quote from sources at times that may not represent the author all that well. However, before I had made the connection between Hitler and Nietzsche (I was truly ignorant of the fact that there was debate or even a connection of the two philosophies on the subject) I decided to read “Beyond Good and Evil� in the hope of reading in context the classic comment of his that “God was dead!� (only to later to find that it was in a different book “The Gay Science�). Anyhow, as I was reading through “Beyond Good and Evil� I was surprised to find many approaches to social engineering and a totalitarian style and forms of eugenics that Hitler later seemed to emulate in his Reich.
I did not intend to say that Nietzsche was the Father of the concept of a Reich (That belongs to Plato’s Socrates)but certainly Hitler did esteem him .
Below is some reference notes from Wikipedia and some of my own from my notes from Beyond Good and Evil. I do not see any contradiction to what I have stated in the previous post.
The influence of Nietzsche on Hitler and Mussolini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_ ... _Nietzsche
The Italian and German fascist regimes were eager to lay claim to Nietzsche's ideas, and to position themselves as inspired by them. In 1932, Elisabeth Forster-Nietzsche received a bouquet of roses from Adolf Hitler during a German premiere of Benito Mussolini's 100 Days, and in 1934 Hitler personally presented her with a wreath for Nietzsche's grave carrying the words "To A Great Fighter". Also in 1934, Elisabeth gave to Hitler Nietzsche's favorite walking stick, and Hitler was photographed gazing into the eyes of a white marble bust of Nietzsche.[32] Heinrich Hoffmann's popular biography Hitler as Nobody Knows Him (which sold nearly a half-million copies by 1938) featured this photo with the caption reading: "The Führer before the bust of the German philosopher whose ideas have fertilized two great popular movements: the National Socialist of Germany and the Fascist of Italy."[33]
Despite protests from Bataille, Thomas Mann, Albert Camus and others, the Nazi movement found much affinity with Nietzsche's ideas, including his attacks against democracy, Christianity, and parliamentary governments. In The Will to Power Nietzsche praised – though sometimes ambiguously – war and warriors, and heralded a ruling race that would become the "lords of the earth". The Nazis appropriated from Nietzsche's views on women, which declared that "Man shall be trained for war and woman for the procreation of the warrior, anything else is folly", for their social program for women, "They belong in the kitchen and their chief role in life is to beget children for German warriors."[36]
Nietzsche, Hitler and Eugenics
“We, who have a different faith……we have no other choice… to make a start on antithetical evaluations and to revalue and reverse “eternal values�…….to teach man the future of man as his will, as dependant on a human will, and to prepare for great enterprises and collective experiments in discipline and breeding so as to make an end of that gruesome dominion of chance and nonsense that has hitherto been called history� (Nietzsche – Beyond Good and Evil Ch. 203)
Nietzsche, Hitler and the Church
“They (German populace) feel they are fully occupied with…their businesses and pleasures…they have it seems not time left for religion. They tell themselves it is not possible to go to church simply to make oneself miserable. They are not opposed to religious usages, if such participation are demanded in certain usages. ..The majority of German middle class Protestants can today be numbered amongst these indifferent people…�
(Circa 1870 – 1889 Nietzsche – Beyond Good and Evil ch 58)
“Religion is one more means of overcoming resistance so as to be able to rule: as a bond that unites together ruler and ruled and betrays and hands over to the former the consciences of the latter�
(Circa 1870 – 1889 Nietzsche – Beyond Good and Evil ch 61)
Compare this with the emergence of the ‘Confessing Church’ before and during the Second World War who were resisting the seduction to the NAZI state machine like the rest of the Lutheran Church and was well in decline even in Nietzsche’s day. The church had long been a cultural artefact for decades apart from those in resistance like Bonhoeffer and the ‘Confessing Church� many of whom lost their lives during the NAZI Regime.
Now besides the above, Nietzsche, though his opening chapter was not favourable to philosophers, certainly had striking resemblances to Plato’s Republic which is seen by some as a manifesto for a totalitarian state. The position of women, the position of plebs, the use of propaganda and the toleration of the church as what we call today ‘useful idiots’ were all in just this one book “Beyond Good and Evil�. I am keen to get hold of more of his works though and have him on my reading list. Good and Evil was supposed to be as per Nietzsche’s own words similar in content to Zarathustra.
The coldest of all cold monsters is known by the name, State.
It tells cold lies, as well; and this lie creeps from its mouth:
'I, the State, am the people.'
__from Thus Spoke Zarathustra, First Part, The Teaching of Zarathustra, "Of new Idols.
"These are not the words of an individual who supports concepts of government, let alone something that would be called a "Reich.
Nietzsche did not really like philosophers, but he did seem to borrow a great deal from Plato (I just happened to read this today from Plato’s Republic. Plato’s Socrates was contending that in setting up the state ruled by Guardians, there was no particular problem in spinning a few lies to the people, as long as it was good for the prolonging and order of the state. Plato’s ideas of eugenics are clearly replicated in Nietzsche and the class system (Rulers and Ruled) as are his attitudes towards women.
I think that while Nietzsche did not necessarily like statehood per se, he did know that it was more the ‘kind’ of state that we should suffer that was the real question. He does not appear to me to be an anarchist.
....
Nietzsche had no love for racists, and avoided them, to the point of dissociating completely from his own sister as a result of her anti-Semitic dealings. From 1875 - 1882, one of Nietzsche's closest colleagues was Paul Rée, a Jew.
I can only say I agree, there was no anti-Semitism with him, and in fact he praised the Jews for their industry and intelligence (from what I have read anyway).
He tenaciously maintained friendship with Rée much to the dismay of his increasingly anti-Semitic contemporaries, namely his own sister, and Cosima and Richard Wagner, among others. Nietzsche, in fact, made his aversion to racism clear when in 1887 he wrote a letter to anti-Semite, Theodor Fritsch, explicitly telling Fritsch he was not interested in racist ideas, and calling the anti-Semitic movement queer, abominable, hypocritical, absurd, and false."
http://www.unc.edu/~jenseits/Thinking/N ... ntext.html
You somehow have turned my reference to Nietzsche / Hitler into being particularly about Jews. This chapter in German history was indeed tragic, but the other ramifications of an earth ruled by Nazi are far reaching, way beyond the Holocaust. Hitler admired him so it is not a long bow to assume that some of his ideas crept into Hitler’s. It is highly probable. See sample below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influence_ ... _Nietzsche
Nietzsche and fascism
See also Nietzsche's criticism of anti-Semitism and nationalism.
The Italian and German fascist regimes were eager to lay claim to Nietzsche's ideas, and to position themselves as inspired by them. In 1932, Elisabeth Forster-Nietzsche received a bouquet of roses from Adolf Hitler during a German premiere of Benito Mussolini's 100 Days, and in 1934 Hitler personally presented her with a wreath for Nietzsche's grave carrying the words "To A Great Fighter". Also in 1934, Elisabeth gave to Hitler Nietzsche's favorite walking stick, and Hitler was photographed gazing into the eyes of a white marble bust of Nietzsche.[34] Heinrich Hoffmann's popular biography Hitler as Nobody Knows Him (which sold nearly a half-million copies by 1938) featured this photo with the caption reading: "The Führer before the bust of the German philosopher whose ideas have fertilized two great popular movements: the National Socialist of Germany and the Fascist of Italy."[35]
Now admittedly, I have neither the time or inclination to research whether the above excerpt from Wikipedia is from reliable sources, so we must at least agree to a stalemate unless you can produce something of more authority than Wikipedia.
You are not alone, however, in repeating these myths. Nietzsche's anti-semitic sister is responsible for much of this baloney. In the last years of his life she:
"... acquired access to all his unpublished notes which she "edited" to produce her own version of his philosophy. These bastardized works (in particular The Will to Power, published in 1901, which would be more accurately credited as the written work of Elisabeth Förster-Nietzsche, rather than that of her brother) were subsequently used in developing the emerging anti-Semitic movements. The last ten years of his life, Friedrich Nietzsche was completely oblivious to what his sister (or anyone else) was doing."
Ibid
The works that I have quoted from were published while Nietzsche was still in some form of rational health (1886). This is way before his sister posthumously edited some of his works, and 14 years before he died in August 1900.
Given the age at his death at 56, and the Reich and Hitler’s acquaintance with Elizabeth, I would say that at the time of publication, his sister would in no way be able to influence or alter the work of Beyond Good and Evil. I am thinking you are grasping at straws to use this.