Crutch or Comfort

[Sender]

Whenever you feel scared or sometimes desperate, as an atheist who do you call on in times of crisis, , or what do you do? Someone posed the question...what is different between Christianity and other religions? After a lifetime of searching (off and on), I have(subject to change), realized my answer. And that is I don't know. And part of THAT is because I don't know the answer I just posed to you. Throughout my life I have been hot and cold in my relationship with the Lord. Married but chased woman, divorce, re-marry. Never had a drinking problem, but have smoked allot of pot in my day. Honest otherwise and pay my bills. I could <b>almost</b> retire today at forty seven if I chose to. So anyway I have spent allot of time having a relationship with Jesus, pretty much since I was very young. I have not really doubted God exists. I don't know why that is, my parents could of cared less. It just seems Jesus has been there my whole life, even when I would tell him to go away and eat shit. But as a friend sometimesI would not talk to him maybe but a couple times a year. Other times I would be so close to him and be totally enveloped in him that it is so hard to explain. But even so in all of my travels he would be with me even if I wasn't talking to him. But always in the back of my mind it has given me a comfort in feeling safe. In motels in a strange town.Contemplating life while working out running the dirt roads on the back of the base will serving in the Marines in Japan. To being there when my children had/have a high fever or worse. Driving in a terrible storm. The Bible said God will send the comforter(Holy Spirit), which is part of the truine God.

Now some will argue that is a crutch for mindless nimbelsils. Please don't think that. With all kinds of effort and energy and even money going in to exposing God as a fraud, has that really happened yet beyond a shadow of a doubt? I suppose atheist could say the same thing, and to many they are right. It doesn't matter. All the slide rules and equations and theories can not measure that personal relationship, when you allow him to be your best friend.

The Bible in Job talks about the "streams in the sea", yet we as a people we didn't know about that until 1977. We discovered light causes wind 150 years ago, written in Job hundreds and hundreds of years ago. Noah's instruction's regarding dimentions to build a boat, 150 feet longer than any wooden ship we can build today. The navy has done studies and concluded(even if it doesn't exist) if you were to build a wooden boat to withstand a world wide flood, those are the EXACT dimentions it would take for it to survive. That was written forty forty hundred years ago! Thousands of exciting examples are within these pages. "As far as the East is from the West", is very cool because had it of said as far as the North is from the South you have a measurable distance because of the Poles. Just so many cool things to read about in the Bible.

In summary. Who do you have in your life that is always going to be there no matter what? Who I may add is four dimentional, and will still be there for you beyond the grave? I don't belive that can be measured. I would feel so naked and exposed and vulnerable if I didn't have that.

Again a crutch? Or a comfort? I believe in the Comforter who gives you that serenity and peace. Where does your inner peace come from? Just because we as Christians have our "spiritual" side covered, doesn't mean we have shut our brains off at the door. You can have both! God not only loves us he loves the sciences as well. As an Atheist who is your comforter?

[bernee51]

Now the belief in a deity or deities predates non-godian concepts so in fact atheism was contemplated after the fact of deity worship.

This concept is addressed very well in Huxley's Perennial Philosophy. Mankind has a 'sense of the sacred' and ever since it evolved to a level of consciosuness that allowed self enquiry has been looking for it. Mostly in the wrong places.

Not believing in a god concept does not prelulde a sense of 'spirituality'. Admitting and seeking 'the sacred' does not require a god - in fact the 'god concept ' while understandable is leading believers away from the truth, not towards it.

It most certainly is a belief in nothing conjured up from an idea founded sometime in the history of human kind.

As is the 'belief in something'. BTW I point out (yet again) atheism is not a belief in nothing...it is simply a non belief in god(s)

[AlAyeti]

Fair enough. Your opinions are well noted. I really don't want to insult you but sometimes the argument has to be "flavored."

God is not afraid of our positions. And, I firmly believe that secualrists and skeptics and guys like you, are helping Christ and His church far more than hurting it. Muslims and those that would kill us and enslave our children to licentiousness are to be the concern.

If you truly believe in live and let live, then the arguments are just sport. Now an AK-47 is no joke, but I have come to believe that Atheists are like children needing negative attention to feel secure. Even those I know with PhD's. I'll bet a buck that many make it to heaven when all is said and done. So many are such fine and peaceful people God will not abandon them.

[bernee51]

Fair enough. Your opinions are well noted. I really don't want to insult you but sometimes the argument has to be "flavored."

You cannot insult me Al. In fact when I self enquire I believe it is not possible for me to feel insult, from you, or anyone else.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'flavoured' arguments.

And, I firmly believe that secualrists and skeptics and guys like you, are helping Christ and His church far more than hurting it.

I seek not to help or hinder the Christ myth or the church that bears his name. I seek only to share my thoughts, feelings and knowledge. Any help or hindrance is coincidental.

... but I have come to believe that Atheists are like children needing negative attention to feel secure.

You have demonstrated with alarming consistency that you are full of dubious, if not disturbing, beliefs.

I'll bet a buck that many make it to heaven when all is said and done.

And I'll give you double to nothing on that buck that none of us will make it to heaven.

So many are such fine and peaceful people God will not abandon them.

God has already blessed me with his absence. I could ask for nothing more.

[Sender]

Fair enough. Your opinions are well noted. I really don't want to insult you but sometimes the argument has to be "flavored."

You cannot insult me Al. In fact when I self enquire I believe it is not possible for me to feel insult, from you, or anyone else.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'flavoured' arguments.

And, I firmly believe that secualrists and skeptics and guys like you, are helping Christ and His church far more than hurting it.

I seek not to help or hinder the Christ myth or the church that bears his name. I seek only to share my thoughts, feelings and knowledge. Any help or hindrance is coincidental.

... but I have come to believe that Atheists are like children needing negative attention to feel secure.

You have demonstrated with alarming consistency that you are full of dubious, if not disturbing, beliefs.

I'll bet a buck that many make it to heaven when all is said and done.

And I'll give you double to nothing on that buck that none of us will make it to heaven.

So many are such fine and peaceful people God will not abandon them.

God has already blessed me with his absence. I could ask for nothing more.

second request to stay on topic please. Thanks.

[bernee51]

second request to stay on topic please. Thanks.

Is the topic Crutch or comfort?

Or your 'relationship' with Jesus?

Or "streams in the sea"?

Or Noah's supposed boat?

Or lots of other rooly kool words in the bible?

Or your nakedness and vulnerabilty without your belief in your god?

What exactly is the topic?

[Sender]

second request to stay on topic please. Thanks.

Is the topic Crutch or comfort?

Or your 'relationship' with Jesus?

Or "streams in the sea"?

Or Noah's supposed boat?

Or lots of other rooly kool words in the bible?

Or your nakedness and vulnerabilty without your belief in your god?

What exactly is the topic?

Just read the orignal post. btw, I know Andrew Bogut.

[QED]

What happens after that will depend on what we did with our lives with regard to Him while we were here on earth with a free will. What choice did we make? Are you in the "Book of Life"? If you don't believe in him that would seem intimidating, but for those who believe, GLORIOUS.

Good for you. I've only ever smoked Cigars and have been in a wholly faithful marriage for 31 years now so maybe it's not too late for me to repent and embrace Jesus after all -- only the seven eyes thing is still putting me off a bit.

I have to wonder how you can reconcile the love and mercy that you're so certain of with, not only the many terrifying biblical accounts (the sort that make men God-fearing), but also the reality of the world that surrounds you.

I hope you do not mind if I respond to this...

Hello Diana, I see you've just started posting here. Welcome to the DC&R forums. You're always welcome to respond to any posts here .

I find that understanding of "reality" comes best from viewing the world as a large family under God. This perspective makes it easy to reconcile conflict in humanity, as well the view of Him as a loving disciplinarian.

Yes, I can see how that might work from the comfort of a relatively untroubled existence. But the metaphor would break down for me in conditions far less excruciating than those in Beslam that I referred to. I'm thinking of one particular incident when my young son was extremely ill and he managed to get a few words out that had me in tears: all he managed to say was "I'm only little". On reflection this is the reality of our true condition. We are all 'only little' yet our minds are large enough to grasp the fine-line between existence and non-existence. He didn't think it should be happening to him and neither do we. Why invent a concept of a loving merciful God only to faced with the awkward rationalization when things go wrong. Understanding that we are not 'chosen' and that we are a by-product of the evolution of the cosmos might not sound all that comforting, but it makes it possible to understand our mortality and frees us from the confusion of why we as children are 'allowed' to suffer.

Do you not ask yourself where Jesus was when hundreds of small children met a terrifying death after a three-day ordeal in the Beslan seige?
I know where Jesus is -- bleeding and suffering on a Cross for the salvation of those children -- and for their killers.

Yes but what is the real meaning of this? What is the payload of the Crucifixion? I recently started a topic Questioning the Crucifixion in which I asked what sacrifice was really made. After all unlike every other mortal who has ever suffered physical torture and murder, Jesus was supposed to return to life and at no time was there a loss to his 'father'. Frankly it's all just hollow words to me. I perceive a network of ideas within Christianity which while supporting each other, have no support from the ground up as it were. The ideas are just hanging there in free space. The figure of Jesus as resurrected is like a PlayStation character who can die over and over again for as many games as you want to play.

As a parent, you are in a unique position to make sense of such things. Surely if you have more than one child, you witness disputes and violence among siblings bordering on hatred (if not actually involving it). Do you blame yourself for those events?

No doubt you will say that as a parent you step in and put a stop to "tragedy" on the family level. And perhaps when they are very young, that is true. (The Biblical equivalent is the Great Flood.) But as they mature, do you not increasingly allow them to work out their own conflicts?

I certainly don't let them hack each other to bits nor would I consider drowning them as a corrective measure. But me and my family are mortal, I can't prevent us getting ill or old. That's the way it is and nobody or nothing are to blame for it.

[Sender]

No QED, you are correct,it is not to late to repent.

[QED]

No QED, you are correct,it is not to late to repent.

OK Mr. one-liner, but what about the seven eyed lamb? I mean, I really don't want to commit myself to going somewhere I know nothing about. After all, I've never heard of a single report coming back from the other side of the grave and I usually check things out a bit more carefully than this. The last time I went somewhere on faith it turned out to be a half-built-dump in the middle of nowhere.

[Diana Holberg]

Hello Diana, I see you've just started posting here. Welcome to the DC&R forums. You're always welcome to respond to any posts here .

Thank you so very much... I'm glad to be here.

Yes, I can see how that might work from the comfort of a relatively untroubled existence.

This is a big assumption on your part, but I'm willing to overlook that. The challenge of faith is to continue to view things as children in spite of the troubles of our existence. But if we can meet that challenge, answers are forthcoming.

But the metaphor would break down for me in conditions far less excruciating than those in Beslam that I referred to. I'm thinking of one particular incident when my young son was extremely ill and he managed to get a few words out that had me in tears: all he managed to say was "I'm only little".

That is heartbreaking and sweet... I hope he recovered well.

On reflection this is the reality of our true condition. We are all 'only little' yet our minds are large enough to grasp the fine-line between existence and non-existence.

This is exactly so. And it presents us with a great temptation to believe that we know better how things should be. Yet we are powerless... at least while divided.

He didn't think it should be happening to him and neither do we. Why invent a concept of a loving merciful God only to faced with the awkward rationalization when things go wrong.

Certainly you are aware that I disagree with your view that God is an invention. Rather, we are His creation.

I was once terribly ill as well, my first summer home from college, and I remember rolling over in my bed, barely able to breathe, and begging my father, "Isn't there ANYTHING anyone can do?" And I remember the helpless look in his eyes. But as a loving father, after he stood there looking helpless for a moment, he got busy hunting down the best treatment he could find.

From a timeless perspective, God has already done the only thing that could be done for us by personally dying in our place.

Understanding that we are not 'chosen'

What causes you to draw this conclusion? The fact that suffering exists?

Did you ever consider that being 'chosen' might actually mean that we are taught to suffer with dignity?

and that we are a by-product of the evolution of the cosmos might not sound all that comforting, but it makes it possible to understand our mortality and frees us from the confusion of why we as children are 'allowed' to suffer.

I understand the comfort of atheism, having held that view for several years.

Yes but what is the real meaning of this? What is the payload of the Crucifixion? I recently started a topic Questioning the Crucifixion in which I asked what sacrifice was really made.

I will try to get past the very sick feeling in my stomach to join that discussion.

After all unlike every other mortal who has ever suffered physical torture and murder, Jesus was supposed to return to life and at no time was there a loss to his 'father'. Frankly it's all just hollow words to me.

This is not at all the truth of the Crucifixion. Did your hope that your son would recover from his illness give you much comfort as you watched him suffering?

I am sorry to use a source of pain to make a point -- particularly if you lost your son to that illness. But if so, you are in a unique position to understand the sacrifice of the Crucifixion.

I perceive a network of ideas within Christianity which while supporting each other, have no support from the ground up as it were. The ideas are just hanging there in free space.

Perhaps our discussions will help them touch the ground for you... time will tell.

The figure of Jesus as resurrected is like a PlayStation character who can die over and over again for as many games as you want to play.

He doesn't die over and over again. He dies once for all time, for all men. What is impossible to communicate in mere words is the deep awareness we as Christians have of this reality.

I certainly don't let them hack each other to bits nor would I consider drowning them as a corrective measure. But me and my family are mortal, I can't prevent us getting ill or old. That's the way it is and nobody or nothing are to blame for it.

You can't prevent it, but you can find meaning and purpose in it. Do you?

[Edit: Just to turn off email notifications... still getting used to this forum.]