Can religion really claim to guide on morality?

[SolidSnake]

I have a question I would much appreciate some ideas on from those of faiths and also those of no faith.

"Can religious leaders and followers of a religion claim with conviction and a clear conscience that their faith be the very compass of morality that we all should follow?"

Isn't there a huge amount of hypocrisy in this? There are many quotes and teachings in holy books that fly in the face of what we would call moral and even by todays standards we would feel were totally immoral.

[Choir Loft]

You and I must be reading different Bibles. The one I have says something about all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength, not a mere 10 to 20%.

Are you talking about the requirements of God,
or those of man?

You are correct in stating God wants 100%,
but I'm sure you've heard men call for their cut...their piece of the action.

Of the law of God there can be no debate.
The Almighty wants man to be ready, willing, and able to give everything,
for in the end we do indeed lose all.

Of the deceivers of man there is no end,
they are like the fabled wolves in sheep's clothing.
Such men always have one hand on the Bible,
and the other in someone else's pocket.

That man is born into sin.

I don't know this.

You've heard it and that is sufficient.

Believing it is another matter.

God is dangerous as well as merciful.

Why call him "Father"?

Only the children of God call Him father.
The rest are under condemnation.
God hates sinners.

Do not be deceived by those who pretend that God loves everyone and that everyone will be saved.....and that there is no hell. For these men are those who would tickle the ears of their hearers so that they may profit by their fall.

The world is full of men who seek to gain by the failure of others. These are the same breed.

God hates sinners and none of them call God 'father'.
Seek the mercy of God while you may, for the day is coming when it may not be found.

[McCulloch]

You and I must be reading different Bibles. The one I have says something about all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength, not a mere 10 to 20%.

Of the deceivers of man there is no end,
they are like the fabled wolves in sheep's clothing.
Such men always have one hand on the Bible,
and the other in someone else's pocket.

I am reminded of Bishop Desmond Tutu.

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.

That man is born into sin.

I don't know this.

You've heard it and that is sufficient.

Believing it is another matter.

Hearing it is not sufficient. In debate, someone who makes a claim is required to support that claim with logic, evidence or reason. Please do. You have claimed that we know that humans are born into sin. I don't know this. I simply ask that you provide some reason that supports your claim. Why do you believe this? Why should I believe this? Is it true or merely your opinion?

God hates sinners.

Again, we seem to be reading different Bibles. Mine has this: [font=Georgia]But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.[/font]

[Choir Loft]

That man is born into sin.
You've heard it and that is sufficient.
Believing it is another matter.

You have claimed that we know that humans are born into sin. I don't know this. I simply ask that you provide some reason that supports your claim. Why do you believe this? Why should I believe this? Is it true or merely your opinion?

Jesus said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"
- John 3:1-7

God hates sinners.

Again, we seem to be reading different Bibles. Mine has this: [font=Georgia]But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.[/font]

You quoted from the book of Romans, chapter 5 and verse 8.

The ENTIRE chapter (5) speaks to those who are already saved; Christians. It does not speak to the unsaved, but to those who are living by the favor of God. It speaks of the condition of justified persons and how they got that way.


through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand
Romans 5:2

Read "have had" to mean past tense. It speaks of those who "have had" access by faith to the grace of God not to those who have NOT HAD access to God.

Those who know not God have not access to Him.

Additionally there are two classic interpretations by Gill and Wesley. Gill states, "God's elect were sinners in Adam, in whom they were naturally and federally, as all mankind were...and such they were considered when Christ died for them...".

While Wesley writes, "While we were sinners - So far from being good, that we were not even just."

Those who are God's children testify that they both know God and have been saved by Him.
Those who are NOT God's children testify that they do NOT know Him and that they have NOT been saved by Him.

If you do not believe my words, the words of the Bible or the words of scholars, then believe the testimony of those who Know God and those who do NOT Know God. It's very simple and not difficult to understand. It does, however, present something to stumble upon.

Jesus said:
And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth ill hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.
Joh 3:19-20

The purpose of these words is to define the problem (SIN) and present God's solution (Christ).

"But choose wisely, for while the true Grail will bring you life, the false Grail will take it from you."
Grail Knight
INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE
Paramount Pictures (1989)

For God indeed hates sin and will in no way excuse those who love it.
Seek His mercy while you may.

[Goat]

That man is born into sin.
You've heard it and that is sufficient.
Believing it is another matter.

You have claimed that we know that humans are born into sin. I don't know this. I simply ask that you provide some reason that supports your claim. Why do you believe this? Why should I believe this? Is it true or merely your opinion?

Jesus said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"
- John 3:1-7

God hates sinners.

Is that what it means?? How do you know, it doesn't mention sin at all. Do you have a secret decoder ring to say 'A man born of water and of the SPirit' is not a sinner? Isn't the good all saw that 'All have fallen short on the glory of God'?

How do you get 'God hates sinners' from that passage?

[Choir Loft]

How do you get 'God hates sinners' from that passage?

And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14-15

Sinners are cast into the lake of fire. That means people, not some sort of displaced naughtiness. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.

Man cannot escape the justice of God by his own hand, but only by His mercy. Therefore it is wise to seek the mercy of God while life lasts....while there is yet time to escape.

[Goat]

How do you get 'God hates sinners' from that passage?

And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14-15

Sinners are cast into the lake of fire. That means people, not some sort of displaced naughtiness. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.

Man cannot escape the justice of God by his own hand, but only by His mercy. Therefore it is wise to seek the mercy of God while life lasts....while there is yet time to escape.

You are making an assumption about that.. it says nothing about sinners at all. Well, revelations is so garbled, you can make it mean anything you want,, you just change super duper decoder rings.

So far, I don't see how any of your quotes actually back up your claims, even if I took the bible at face value. But , even the quotes, out of context like they are, don't back up your claims. You also are not addressing.

1) What is the context of the quote
and
2) Why should I accept the bible as an authority to begin with.

[McCulloch]

That man is born into sin.
You've heard it and that is sufficient.
Believing it is another matter.

You have claimed that we know that humans are born into sin. I don't know this. I simply ask that you provide some reason that supports your claim. Why do you believe this? Why should I believe this? Is it true or merely your opinion?

Jesus said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again"
- John 3:1-7

Alright, your opinion is shared by the character of Jesus depicted in the Gospels. Now show that it is true.

God hates sinners.

Again, we seem to be reading different Bibles. Mine has this: [font=Georgia]But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.[/font]

You quoted from the book of Romans, chapter 5 and verse 8.

The ENTIRE chapter (5) speaks to those who are already saved; Christians. It does not speak to the unsaved, but to those who are living by the favor of God. It speaks of the condition of justified persons and how they got that way.

Read the words again. While we were yet sinners is when the God of Paul is said to demonstrate his own love. Yes, of course, Paul is addressing Christians, speaking of their walk, their path from being sinners to becoming saved. He says that God loved them before that "born again" spiritual rebirth. Yes, while they were sinners, God loved them. God loves, according to Paul, at least some sinners.

If you do not believe my words, the words of the Bible or the words of scholars, then believe the testimony of those who Know God and those who do NOT Know God. It's very simple and not difficult to understand. It does, however, present something to stumble upon.

I do not believe your words nor the words of the Bible. Should I? If so, why?
I will believe the testimony of those who truly know God. Please demonstrate who it is who truly knows God.

"But choose wisely, for while the true Grail will bring you life, the false Grail will take it from you."
Grail Knight
INDIANA JONES AND THE LAST CRUSADE
Paramount Pictures (1989)

All right! The Gospel according to George Lucas and Steven Spielberg. Who can argue with such an authoritative source as that!

For God indeed hates sin and will in no way excuse those who love it.
Seek His mercy while you may.

I felt the goalposts change. God now hates sin. I thought that we were discussing whether God hated sinners.

Anyway, am I a sinner? I am unaware that I have ever rebelled against or disobeyed any commandment from God.

[Choir Loft]

You are making an assumption about that.. it says nothing about sinners at all. Well, revelations is so garbled, you can make it mean anything you want,, you just change super duper decoder rings.

So far, I don\'t see how any of your quotes actually back up your claims, even if I took the bible at face value. But , even the quotes, out of context like they are, don\'t back up your claims. You also are not addressing.

1) What is the context of the quote
and
2) Why should I accept the bible as an authority to begin with.

Why?
You can't be serious.
Really?
Why?
ok
I give you BECAUSE,
and I give you FACT.
WHY - is up to you.

BECAUSE,
at the end of every life,
there is a dark open grave.
A lonesome valley,
beckoning to all.
THAT IS A FACT.

EVERY MAN SEEKS ESCAPE
FROM DEATH'S CRUEL GRASP.

Some seek escape,
by good deeds in life.

Some seek escape,
in the passions,
and appetites,
of life.

Some seek escape,
in ignorance,
in feigned innocence,
in life.

BUT DEATH SWALLOWS LIFE,
DEATH ENDS ALL EXCUSES.

None escape God's justice,
sitting on the fence,
objecting to caution,
claiming no law,
no danger revealed.

None can hide,
or bury their head,
in the sands of time.
Eternal fire burns deep,
even through muddy waters,
of intellectual denial.

Know a day is coming,
When God will send drought,
and severe wind,
to dry the muddy water,
to blow away covering sands,
gathered to cloud His truth.

Know there is yet mercy,
and great blessing,
and comfort,
and reward,
and ESCAPE,
in surrender to Christ.

If He comes to you,
do not deny Him,
else darkness,
will be your forever home.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing;
and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich;
and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself,
and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest;
and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see."
- Rev 3:15-18

WHY should you believe?
The issue is you,
and your destiny.
All by yourself.
No man can stand up for you,
except Jesus.

Accept a loving saviour,
or suffer an angry God.
Your choice, that's why.

[Choir Loft]

How do you get 'God hates sinners' from that passage?

And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire. And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 20:14-15

Sinners are cast into the lake of fire. That means people, not some sort of displaced naughtiness. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God.

Man cannot escape the justice of God by his own hand, but only by His mercy. Therefore it is wise to seek the mercy of God while life lasts....while there is yet time to escape.

[Goat]

You are making an assumption about that.. it says nothing about sinners at all. Well, revelations is so garbled, you can make it mean anything you want,, you just change super duper decoder rings.

So far, I don\'t see how any of your quotes actually back up your claims, even if I took the bible at face value. But , even the quotes, out of context like they are, don\'t back up your claims. You also are not addressing.

1) What is the context of the quote
and
2) Why should I accept the bible as an authority to begin with.

Why?
You can't be serious.
Really?
Why?
ok
I give you BECAUSE,
and I give you FACT.
WHY - is up to you.

Do you give me fact?? I don't see any evidence you do. Because you say so? Or is it because you use capital letters to shout?

BECAUSE,
at the end of every life,
there is a dark open grave.
A lonesome valley,
beckoning to all.
THAT IS A FACT.

Well, people will die.. but that has nothing to do with the questions I asked you to provide evidence for. Poetry is not substitution to rational thought.

EVERY MAN SEEKS ESCAPE
FROM DEATH'S CRUEL GRASP.

Some seek escape,
by good deeds in life.

Some seek escape,
in the passions,
and appetites,
of life.

Some seek escape,
in ignorance,
in feigned innocence,
in life.

BUT DEATH SWALLOWS LIFE,
DEATH ENDS ALL EXCUSES.

None escape God's justice,
sitting on the fence,
objecting to caution,
claiming no law,
no danger revealed.

None can hide,
or bury their head,
in the sands of time.
Eternal fire burns deep,
even through muddy waters,
of intellectual denial.

Know a day is coming,
When God will send drought,
and severe wind,
to dry the muddy water,
to blow away covering sands,
gathered to cloud His truth.

Know there is yet mercy,
and great blessing,
and comfort,
and reward,
and ESCAPE,
in surrender to Christ.

If He comes to you,
do not deny Him,
else darkness,
will be your forever home.

SO people die. Can you show me that 'going to CHrist' stops you from dying?
That is just one big unsupported claim.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing;
and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich;
and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself,
and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest;
and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see."
- Rev 3:15-18

WHY should you believe?
The issue is you,
and your destiny.
All by yourself.
No man can stand up for you,
except Jesus.

Accept a loving saviour,
or suffer an angry God.
Your choice, that's why.

I asked you to provide evidence, and and I get a sermon. I don't see any reason to accept your sermon as being factual.

Second challenge. Show that you speak the truth.