Do you believe Christianity is in crisis?

[Christianity in crisis?]

I would really enjoy a chat about the visible church and the great amount of disunity found throughout the history of the church. The 21st century actually seems worst with much abuse of scripture interpretation, causing more and more divisions among Christians. Have you made your rounds through the various Christian circles? I believe the doctrine of sola scriptura has been abused, and don't believe the answer is the Catholic Church, nor a form of restoration theology.

[Christianity in crisis?]

This is my belief which is driven by Scripture revelation.

Well, that kind of raises the issue of why you believe that the Christian scriptures are a revelation from the god.

We are one humanity, united to the first man (Adam) who rebelled against God.

If you read the story of Adam and Eve literally, you must admit that Adam was quite a dolt. Why the heck would anyone who walked with God rebel? How is it that someone created in the image of God would rebel?

Therefore, all humanity sinned in Adam and suffered the consequences of Adam's sin.

So you believe that acquired characteristics (for example Adam's sin) are inheritable? How does that work? Why would a just God design human life in such a way as to make us sinners because our forefather sinned? That does not seem like intelligent design to me. Does it to you?

Suffering, death, and inhumane actions against each other is the direct result of our fallen nature. We are all born in this hopeless condition in enmity with God.

Personally, I think that infants are cute and innocent. They are not in enmity with anyone.

But God became flesh to create a new humanity. So, in my view we only have two groups in all of humanity. Either you are united to the first Adam or the second Adam (Christ).

Except that the two groups appear to be completely identical.
"What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus."
These are the words of an upbeat Christian song. Stand back and think about it. What a gruesome horrific image! Why would a reasonably intelligent God create a universe where such blood sacrifice would be necessary or even allowed?

LOL... you are an ex-Christian!!! Well, I believe the truth of Christianity rest with the presupposition that the Bible is divine revelation from above. If the Scriptures is not God-breathed revelation, then Christians are the biggest fools of all mankind. Might as well be a hedonist and not a humanist if Christ has not been risen from the dead. Why does God allow, cause, direct, all things according to Scripture including the fall of Adam? For His own Glory which is glorious worthy of praise! Have you heard of Christian hedonism?

[Slopeshoulder]

In regards to theology, I am a staunch Calvinist and agree with the "Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals" and the "Cambridge Declaration". On the other hand, I am very ecumenical, and now embrace the ideas from ECT 1 and ECT 2 (Evangelicals and Catholics Together documents. and the Joint Declaration between Catholics and Lutherans on justification. Heck, JI Packard and Chuck Colson signed ECT 1. I do have a much greater appreciation of the Catholic Faith and Orthodox Faith especially listening to ex-Evangelicals who are now Catholics (Catholic Answers). I'm not familar with John Milbank. Should I read his books?

I find calvinsism in all its forms to be nefarious, perfidious, and odious. and don't get me started on staunch calvinism or the confessing movement (homophobes, kooks, insidious cancers in the body of the church, feeding on its corpse).
But I think you'd like Milbank. Read about him before you read him. Better, read Karen Armstrong. She'll set ya straight.

[Christianity in crisis?]

In regards to theology, I am a staunch Calvinist and agree with the "Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals" and the "Cambridge Declaration". On the other hand, I am very ecumenical, and now embrace the ideas from ECT 1 and ECT 2 (Evangelicals and Catholics Together documents. and the Joint Declaration between Catholics and Lutherans on justification. Heck, JI Packard and Chuck Colson signed ECT 1. I do have a much greater appreciation of the Catholic Faith and Orthodox Faith especially listening to ex-Evangelicals who are now Catholics (Catholic Answers). I'm not familar with John Milbank. Should I read his books?

I find calvinsism in all its forms to be nefarious, perfidious, and odious. and don't get me started on staunch calvinism or the confessing movement (homophobes, kooks, insidious cancers in the body of the church, feeding on its corpse).
But I think you'd like Milbank. Read about him before you read him. Better, read Karen Armstrong. She'll set ya straight.

okay... it's nice to meet you too.

[McCulloch]

LOL... you are an ex-Christian!!!

Yes, I am. I make no secret of it.

Well, I believe the truth of Christianity rest with the presupposition that the Bible is divine revelation from above.

Thank you for that admission. Christianity is based not on demonstrable truth but on presupposition. You cannot answer why you believe the Bible to be true, you presuppose that it is true. I, on the other hand, am a skeptic. I attempt to rid myself of presuppositions. I attempt to believe what I believe for logical and rational reasons, backed by facts and evidence.

If the Scriptures is not God-breathed revelation, then Christians are the biggest fools of all mankind.

I would really like to agree with you on this point, but you are wrong. I think that I could find bigger fools. The Pythagoreans for example. They believed that beans should not be eaten because they believed beans contained a human fetus. There is an apocryphal story of Pythagoras' death where he refused to trample a crop of bean plants in order to escape, and because of this, he was caught and killed by his enemies.

Might as well be a hedonist and not a humanist if Christ has not been risen from the dead.

Humanism and hedonism are not mutually exclusive. Humanists will often cite such hedonists as John Stuart Mill or Jeremy Bentham. Do you have a problem with hedonist philosophy?

Why does God allow, cause, direct, all things according to Scripture including the fall of Adam? For His own Glory which is glorious worthy of praise!

I see little praiseworthy in a God who is such a screw-up as the one depicted in Genesis and Christian theology. He creates beings in his own image who defy him in the first generation. He sets down a law so harsh that he cannot set it aside and love those he wants to love without himself becoming human and sacrificing himself to himself.

Have you heard of Christian hedonism?

No, tell me about it. Is the Wikipedia article a reasonable explanation?

[Christianity in crisis?]

LOL... you are an ex-Christian!!!

Yes, I am. I make no secret of it.

Well, I believe the truth of Christianity rest with the presupposition that the Bible is divine revelation from above.

Thank you for that admission. Christianity is based not on demonstrable truth but on presupposition. You cannot answer why you believe the Bible to be true, you presuppose that it is true. I, on the other hand, am a skeptic. I attempt to rid myself of presuppositions. I attempt to believe what I believe for logical and rational reasons, backed by facts and evidence.

If the Scriptures is not God-breathed revelation, then Christians are the biggest fools of all mankind.

I would really like to agree with you on this point, but you are wrong. I think that I could find bigger fools. The Pythagoreans for example. They believed that beans should not be eaten because they believed beans contained a human fetus. There is an apocryphal story of Pythagoras' death where he refused to trample a crop of bean plants in order to escape, and because of this, he was caught and killed by his enemies.

Might as well be a hedonist and not a humanist if Christ has not been risen from the dead.

Humanism and hedonism are not mutually exclusive. Humanists will often cite such hedonists as John Stuart Mill or Jeremy Bentham. Do you have a problem with hedonist philosophy?

Why does God allow, cause, direct, all things according to Scripture including the fall of Adam? For His own Glory which is glorious worthy of praise!

I see little praiseworthy in a God who is such a screw-up as the one depicted in Genesis and Christian theology. He creates beings in his own image who defy him in the first generation. He sets down a law so harsh that he cannot set it aside and love those he wants to love without himself becoming human and sacrificing himself to himself.

Have you heard of Christian hedonism?

No, tell me about it. Is the Wikipedia article a reasonable explanation?

When you were a Christian, you probably did not believe in the 5 points of Calvinism, predestination and election. It is quite the circular argument, that the Bible is the Word of God because the Spirit of God revealed that the Scriptures is the Word of God to those He intended only. Apart from the work of the Spirit to give us spiritual life to be able to see Christ as being the one He claims to be, or that the Scriptures is God-breathed, then the man without the Spirit is unable to receive the Scriptures as the Word of God. Please look at this Scripture verse in Matthew:

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

If you were chosen before the foundations of the word to believe in Christ... you will one day believe. It's the teachings of the Scriptures.

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. - Ephesians 1


In regards to Christian hedonism -

I think the wikipedia definiton is quite accurate, the last time I checked. It is a phrase coined by John Piper, but consistent with the Apostle Paul's writings.

[teganz]

Great discussion and what a great topic. I think there is definitely something going on. Have you heard of the Manhattan declaration?

Tegan
Advocate of Centurions
http://www.breakpoint.org/resources/centurions

[McCulloch]

Have you heard of the Manhattan declaration?

You mean The Manhattan Declaration is a document signed at the end of the 2008 International Conference on Climate Change, sponsored by the Heartland Institute which aims to bring together global warming skeptics who dissent with the scientific consensus that human-produced greenhouse gases, predominantly carbon dioxide, are causing the Earth's climate to warm. It is signed by scientists and researchers in climate and related fields, economists, policymakers, and business leaders present at the conference, and calls for the immediate halt to any tax funded attempts to counteract climate change. The declaration asserts "oft-repeated assertions of a supposed 'consensus' among climate experts are false."

Or did you mean Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience? A manifesto issued by Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian leaders to affirm support of "the sanctity of life, traditional marriage, and religious liberty". These people feel that their rights to civil liberties of free exercise of religion and freedom of speech are being violated, because people who do not accept their religion are exempt from the moral restrictions of their religion.

religious liberty, which is grounded in the character of God, the example of Christ, and the inherent freedom and dignity of human beings created in the divine image.

This is, to my mind, quite orwellian. They want to restrict the freedoms and rights of non-believers in the name of religious liberty. The equate their struggle to place Americans under theocratic laws with Martin Luther King's struggle to assert civil rights.

[Christianity in crisis?]

Great discussion and what a great topic. I think there is definitely something going on. Have you heard of the Manhattan declaration?

Tegan
Advocate of Centurions
http://www.breakpoint.org/resources/centurions

I highly respect Chuck Colson but I have to strongly disagree with his support of the Manhattan Declaration. It's interesting that Christians are trying to fight for traditonal marriages (whatever that means) when you study the marriage arrangements from the elect of God in the Old Testament. For example, Abraham married his half-sister (blood related) and then Sarah's slave. Esau married outside his bloodlines and was considered unfaithful for doing this. On the other hand, Jacob married his first cousin which was considered a good thing. Most had multiple wives. Consider King Solomon.

If we believe in the separation of church and state, why does part of the church try to control who can be married. Christians have a higer divorce rate and similar pre-marital sex and adultery rate than unbelievers. So, Chrisitans cannot blame gays and lesbians who want to get married as a threat to traditional family structures as defined by some Christians. The unstablity of Christian marriage has nothing to do with gay and lesbian marriages. The church needs to get off a moral gospel agendal and return to the bibilcal gospel. The visible church has a history of discriminating against minorities (racial, gender, divorced, etc). We need to learn from our past, and even look at the Scriptures closer through the lenses of the gospel when interperting verses.

[Christianity in crisis?]

Have you heard of the Manhattan declaration?

You mean The Manhattan Declaration is a document signed at the end of the 2008 International Conference on Climate Change, sponsored by the Heartland Institute which aims to bring together global warming skeptics who dissent with the scientific consensus that human-produced greenhouse gases, predominantly carbon dioxide, are causing the Earth's climate to warm. It is signed by scientists and researchers in climate and related fields, economists, policymakers, and business leaders present at the conference, and calls for the immediate halt to any tax funded attempts to counteract climate change. The declaration asserts "oft-repeated assertions of a supposed 'consensus' among climate experts are false."

Or did you mean Manhattan Declaration: A Call of Christian Conscience? A manifesto issued by Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian leaders to affirm support of "the sanctity of life, traditional marriage, and religious liberty". These people feel that their rights to civil liberties of free exercise of religion and freedom of speech are being violated, because people who do not accept their religion are exempt from the moral restrictions of their religion.

religious liberty, which is grounded in the character of God, the example of Christ, and the inherent freedom and dignity of human beings created in the divine image.

This is, to my mind, quite orwellian. They want to restrict the freedoms and rights of non-believers in the name of religious liberty. The equate their struggle to place Americans under theocratic laws with Martin Luther King's struggle to assert civil rights.

An unbeliever united with a believer in Christ against those who support the misguided Manhattan Declaration. Sometimes, I want to hide from the religious right. They are not the voice for Christianity. God is not a Republican!