Isaac and Abraham

[Dilettante]

The terrible dilemma of Abraham has haunted countless thinkers in history, the most famous of them being probably Danish philosopher Sören Kierkegaard. But I bet everyone--that is, except those who never had a belief in the Abrahamic God--has wondered how he or she would act in a situation where God tells you to kill an innocent, perhaps your only child. This is perhaps the most difficult question for believers. I think it would be unethical of God to test people in the way he reportedly tested Abraham (and please remember Abraham didn't know it was just a test) and that anyone who killed his own son today and told the police he had just followed God's orders would rightly be put in a mental institution for life.
I, for one, could not kill an innocent person (let alone one of my children) even if God told me to. What about the rest of forum members?

[McCulloch]

Our in-build moral and ethical code clearly finds its source in a creator, so how can we judge him as immoral? He is the standard of morality from which our own has come. His moral stance does not require our validation

I’m a little confused here. If Christians can not determine whether God is moral or immoral; why do they obey him? It sounds like they are saying, "Whether God is good or evil is irrelevant; we obey God because we fear him." Am I understanding this correctly?

No, it is more like, "God is good. Whatever you think about what is good, if it does not agree with God, you are the one who is wrong not God. "

And yes, you are correct, based on this kind of thinking, Christians cannot determine what is moral or immoral other than to refer to their God.

[Righteous Indignation]

Our in-build moral and ethical code clearly finds its source in a creator, so how can we judge him as immoral? He is the standard of morality from which our own has come. His moral stance does not require our validation

I’m a little confused here. If Christians can not determine whether God is moral or immoral; why do they obey him? It sounds like they are saying, "Whether God is good or evil is irrelevant; we obey God because we fear him." Am I understanding this correctly?

No, it is more like, "God is good. Whatever you think about what is good, if it does not agree with God, you are the one who is wrong not God. "

And yes, you are correct, based on this kind of thinking, Christians cannot determine what is moral or immoral other than to refer to their God.

Yes, I agree. Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

[McCulloch]

Yes, I agree. Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

Neither and both.

To some Christians, if they think about the implications of their belief, "God is good" is a tautology not a judgment.

[Righteous Indignation]

To some Christians, if they think about the implications of their belief, "God is good" is a tautology not a judgment.

But can't a tautology be wrong? If I believed the tautology that "I am good" and everything that disagrees with me is evil. Would my tautology be correct? I would be very interested in your reasoning why or why not.

[pyrite]

And yes, you are correct, based on this kind of thinking, Christians cannot determine what is moral or immoral other than to refer to their God.

and is there something wrong with this thinking? can you prove that God is not morally and ethically perfect?

[pyrite]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

[Righteous Indignation]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

If your god was Satan himself, you would say the same thing. Tell me how you can be sure your god is not evil.

[pyrite]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

If your god was Satan himself, you would say the same thing. Tell me how you can be sure your god is not evil.

redundant statement, you could say that about anybody. faith in our creator is the core of any religion.. by our understanding, clearly his ways represent 'good' compared to those of satan. if we cant judge good vs evil from this basis we might as well close the thread! all we have is our own perceptions of good or evil

[Righteous Indignation]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

If your god was Satan himself, you would say the same thing. Tell me how you can be sure your god is not evil.

redundant statement, you could say that about anybody. faith in our creator is the core of any religion.. by our understanding, clearly his ways represent 'good' compared to those of satan. if we cant judge good vs evil from this basis we might as well close the thread! all we have is our own perceptions of good or evil

Well, we may have a problem here. I admit that my culture tells me that God is good and Satan is bad, but my culture frequently is wrong. I am not aware of any inter-voice, instinct, or feeling that would lead me to believe anything about God or Satan. I know that you believe God is good and Satan is bad; but, if I am to make a judgment, some kind of proof or rational is necessary. So, can you validate the statement, "God is good"?

[pyrite]

Still, some here seem to be making two contradictory statements, "We can not judge God." and "God is good." Both statements can not be correct. Which statement is wrong?

yes they can..
saying that 'God is good' according to our understanding of the moral code does not make him an entity we can freely judge as morally wrong. we have our own understanding of what is right and wrong based on what he has freely given us, and we have the ability to judge right from wrong.. but we most certainly would be wrong to judge him as morally flawed. we have the right to observe and weigh up God's moral judgments as many of you have said, but the conclusion we should come to is that his ways are higher than our ways, and anything we see as wrong will have been done for a very good reason

If your god was Satan himself, you would say the same thing. Tell me how you can be sure your god is not evil.

redundant statement, you could say that about anybody. faith in our creator is the core of any religion.. by our understanding, clearly his ways represent 'good' compared to those of satan. if we cant judge good vs evil from this basis we might as well close the thread! all we have is our own perceptions of good or evil

Well, we may have a problem here. I admit that my culture tells me that God is good and Satan is bad, but my culture frequently is wrong. I am not aware of any inter-voice, instinct, or feeling that would lead me to believe anything about God or Satan. I know that you believe God is good and Satan is bad; but, if I am to make a judgment, some kind of proof or rational is necessary. So, can you validate the statement God is good?

yes, i know he is good because he is good to me. since i've found my faith in God and committed my life to him i've been a different person, truly changed. is this not proof of God's goodness? may seem like a limp or weak statement to you, but can you disagree with someone's personal experience?