, indicates the tenth commandment and not a Tithe. If someone could help me Understand and possibly PROVE where tithes are given unto preists I would be greatly humbled.[/b]"I will surely give the tenth unto thee."
Tithes
Moderator: Moderators
Tithes
Post #1I have been very interested in this "Tithe" idea ever since my sister told me that she gives 10% of her and her husband's TOTAL income to the church. This Boggles my mind, My sister is a scientist and her Husband is an Engineer. They make quite a bit of money, so a donation now and then to help out a place they attend every week or so wpuld be fine. But, for them to be duped into believing that they must give 10% of thier income to the church in order to recieve blessings from God is just inane to me. I can not undestand how a scientist and an engineer, both of whom are incrediably intelligent, would just give away 10% of thier income because they are told it is written in the bible. The word "Tithe" appeas 38 times in 32 verses in both the old and new testaments of the King James Verion of the Bible. All I could find in any of these references is that "Tithes" were given unto God, and not unto a priest, or paster, or anyother Man Of God. Where and how are they used? I could understand a community coming together and raising money for a leaky roof in thier church or new pews or organs or something but as far as a mandatory giving, I think that it is merely an interpretation, in order to recieve more money (Collection Plates) than they already do. I mean I knew a pastor who drove around in a brand new Caddilac Escalade, put 3 kids through college and live in a near mansion. Unless this pastor is selling illegal drugs on the side I would say that this Tithe is going into his pocket. I'm sure the government doesn't tax the Tithes, I don't know that for a fact, but I can imagine they don't. If Anyone could help explain where exactly, in any holy book, it says that one would need to give 10% to thier priest and not unto God himself I'd really appreciate it. To me, I was given 2 passages by a mormon I was debating on another site, she said Genesis 28:22 (KJ Ver.), and proverb 3:9 (KJ Ver.). Now Tithe is not listed ineither of these passages but my interpretation of
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McCulloch
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Post #31
Moved to Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma since the thread has become more of a debate about what the proper Christian interpretation of a tithe is rather than simply a definition or explanation.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
Post #32
McCulloch wrote:Moderator Warning
Chachynga, please re-read the rules.
1. No personal attacks of any sort are allowed.
14. In general, all members are to be civil and respectful.
There are better ways to disagree with another debater than to call him a fool, liar, ignorant or demon. BeHereNow has made the assertion that the Bible defines the tithe a certain way. If you disagree, provide evidence that supports your point-of-view. If he has misrepresented your view, simply state which points he has misrepresented and restate accurately what you believe.
It is always more civil to pretend to believe that someone who misrepresents your point of view is honestly mistaken rather than deliberately being deceptive. It is also more civil to pretend to believe that if someone has not properly understood your post, that you have not been adequately clear in communicating your thoughts.
chachynga wrote:And you are a fool or a liar or a deceiver or an ignorant demon.
You are certainly putting words and phrases into my mouth and my post that I did not say. And I am biblically based. You however can't even discern my posts. If you had, you would not have written this garbage!
Try Again.
This time without being a False Witness.
I am merely speaking truth, if you cant deal with it go jump off a bridge.
Anyone with any brains can see that he is twisting my words to suit his agenda.
I care less if he hears anything.
A tithe is a tenth, that is un disputable.
A tithe has many limitations, if you study the bible and the law you will know. It can include many inclusions and certain parts applied at times and at times don't apply and then still always where able more can be given.
Go study the OT and see....
This is not in question, his objection to my post is baseless.
I am not going to defend against a moron. Either know the Law or shut up.
Tithes are not required to be made to the church per se and truly the preachers worth their salt shall be paid twice otherwise... all in scripture... but if you dont have the brains to know these things dont have me explain them, and dont assert something in the law you know nothing about and you dont even believe in... as no one here even supports Gods Laws and can just go straight to hell for all I care. I speak to those that know the law and care.
Also some people are not required to pay tithes and yet others are only required if certain obligations are met.... this is a very large subject and the dude that posted to my post knows nothing of what he speaks and yet puffs his chest with an appearance of a superior knowledge he has not.
He can eat Grass, I care the less.
In Fact the areas that Tithes can reach are enough means to make several books about. Tithe is a serious subject encompassing much much ...
In Fact, the truth be known, unless you know the law, this is an waste of time to even engage in, as even many scholars object to certain points of view and any certain requires substance of obligatory maintenance of the persons involved. There are more than one type of tythe, and it operates differently from year to year.... now the fun begins when you know the law, and you can debate where it begins and ends and if it is truly one tythe or several or the whole is all one large system that never was properly applied by anyone...
None the less, I could argue any side and win, but the point is what is truth.
I spelled out a short cut and dry and was blasted for it so go to hell.
We can get into all the details and we could even judaize it as many are willing and that'd be expected... Facts are the tythe has many levels and they all inter relate and one could get lost in the whole ordeal...
Let the Jew that thinks he knows truth be deceived and never get it still. I am not going to help him who loves a lie.
Truth is if you Live as you should the tithe become of no importance because you do what is called for anyway. Yes, you still keep a watchfull eye on Giving to Specific ministers or other areas call to give... but if all the spirit of Gods laws are applied, the lithe is also applied in kind.
Tithe was for God and yourself and for your brother and like all things Balance in proper prospective is necessary.
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McCulloch
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Post #33
Right. But a tenth of what? The debater has asked for a clear Biblical reference of how one is to calculate the base amount that one has to take a tenth of.chachynga wrote:A tithe is a tenth, that is un disputable.
I have not seen anything yet that would merit this level of confidence. Please, pick a side and show your stuff.chachynga wrote:None the less, I could argue any side and win, but the point is what is truth.
chachynga wrote:I spelled out a short cut and dry and was blasted for it so go to hell.
You mean this:
chachynga wrote:First off there is no thing that requires you to give to a "church"!
Second off if the minister is a WORTHY minister and they have the wherewithall then they can/should give 20% biblical to-boot.
Read the bible, it shows what is to be given as tythe and it is necessary... you pay one way or another.
[...]
if the pastor cant pull in enough revenue from the congregation for whatever reason, he should make tents like Paul.
Hint hint.... no one said you are sure to get rich being a preacher, but this I can say, that you will certainly have wealth in this life beyond measures if you sell the stupid people whatever they want to hear with itchy ears.
Sell man his own made religion and you will be paid, show him truth and the remnant will love you and the rest will hate you.
[...]
tithe is on increase
Deuteronomy
14 22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
Increase Less operation expenses if you have a tractor trailor for instance, and your Fuel bill was 1200 bux a week you certainly would not include that overhead.
[...]
A good priest is Gods Minister, he is in effect god because he is a ruler/Judge, if he be Godly...
A servant is worthy of his hire!
Thou shall not muzzle the Ox as he treddeth!
Study it out, I am right as I usually am.
[...]
it is clear to anyone that reads it that the tithe is in whatever means you REAP
if you are a farmer of corn, you reap in bushels of corn, you tithe in corn, yet there are also laws concerning conversion of that tithe.... anyhow, under circumstances the tithe can not be made in that measure and there are ways to do otherwise and still be biblical..... can cost much if you dont too...
Anyway's if you are a country doctor and get paid in chickens and rice and beans, your in for more of a pickle than the average Joe.... so tithe on the value in excess of your needs and travel expenses etc.
Every situation is different.
Just Give in the extra you have as increase.
[...]
If your a stockbroker and you are someones employee and have your online fees and stuff paid for, you'd not subtract any expenses, if you are in business, any pure business expenses, as per my example I believe I gave, about the tractor truck driver... his gas bill is several thousand dollars a month...
God knows you have to eat.
But normal eating expenses you'd incur anyhow.... take all things into account and try to be fair....
Capiche!
You are right. It certainly is a short cut and dry. Lots of assertions; very little evidence.
- there is no thing that requires you to give to a "church"! - unsupported assertion
- Second off if the minister is a WORTHY minister and they have the wherewithal then they can/should give 20% biblical to-boot. - unsupported assertion
- Read the bible, it shows what is to be given as tythe and it is necessary... you pay one way or another. - vague non-answer. Perhaps you could try to answer the question rather than simply assert that the answer is somewhere in the Bible.
- tithe is on increase - supported with a quote from Deuteronomy, well done!
- A servant is worthy of his hire! Thou shall not muzzle the Ox as he treddeth! - well done again. Relevant passages to apply.
- Stockbroker example and eating expenses - unsupported assertion
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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williamryan
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How Unfortunate . . .
Post #34Chachynga presents what is known as the "health and wealth" gospel. What's worse, he or she he does it in an unChristian, bashing way. Speaking the "truth" must be done with love.
The "truth" about tithing is, unfortunately, lost in much backyard bible teaching that is often based on televangelist theology that shouts that God only wants you to be happy, healthy, and have a full bank account. The only thing you have to do is give 10% or more to the televangelist or church.
This type of teaching is fundamentally flawed for lots of reasons that I'd rather not deal with here. But, more appropriately dealt with here, is the idea of 10% as the tithe. Many lay Christians will tell you that the bible requires Christians to give a tithe, which is defined as 10%.
The trouble with this is that nowhere in the new testament does it say that people should give 10% of their income to the church. Nowhere. When I got my degree in biblical studies and started learning the original languages, I felt deceived because I had been taught that you are required to tithe 10%, so you never actually "give" until your giving more than 10%. The truth is that nowhere in the NT does it tell people to give 10%.
People who say that the bible requires 10% make a basic mistake in understanding how the OT and the NT relate. The most appropriate way to understand the relationship between the 2 is that we understand what the OT meant when the original author(s) wrote a given passage, and then filter that message through the new covenant represented by the NT.
In other words, the OT talks indireclty about giving 10%, but when we filter this through the NT, we come out with a different result. Paul tells his readers to give what they can, but to do it with joy and not with grumbling (2 Corinthians 9:7).
So where do people get all this 10% stuff today? Part of it is based on the misconception just noted, and another part is that 10% is certainly a good benchmark given that it is the only benchmark used in all the bible. But note that its not required.
The bible doesn't teach us to give so that we can have some type of super-reward later when God blesses us with $70 for giving $7 or whatever. God is not a stock broker. We're to give because it breaks the power that money so easily holds over us. It is right and good to help others in need, and to pay the operating and other costs associated with the church.
The concept or word of tithe shows up in the following places in the NT. In Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42, 18:12 the giving of thithes is cast in a negative light because of the way that it was often practiced with no regard for justice, love of God, mercy, and faith. Paul deals indirectly with tithing in 2 Corinthians 9:7-13. The author of Hebrews 7 uses the account of Abraham's paying a tithe to the priest-king Melchizedek (see Gen 14.18-20) to show the superiority of Christ's priesthood, which his "after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7:11, 17).
I hope this helps.
The "truth" about tithing is, unfortunately, lost in much backyard bible teaching that is often based on televangelist theology that shouts that God only wants you to be happy, healthy, and have a full bank account. The only thing you have to do is give 10% or more to the televangelist or church.
This type of teaching is fundamentally flawed for lots of reasons that I'd rather not deal with here. But, more appropriately dealt with here, is the idea of 10% as the tithe. Many lay Christians will tell you that the bible requires Christians to give a tithe, which is defined as 10%.
The trouble with this is that nowhere in the new testament does it say that people should give 10% of their income to the church. Nowhere. When I got my degree in biblical studies and started learning the original languages, I felt deceived because I had been taught that you are required to tithe 10%, so you never actually "give" until your giving more than 10%. The truth is that nowhere in the NT does it tell people to give 10%.
People who say that the bible requires 10% make a basic mistake in understanding how the OT and the NT relate. The most appropriate way to understand the relationship between the 2 is that we understand what the OT meant when the original author(s) wrote a given passage, and then filter that message through the new covenant represented by the NT.
In other words, the OT talks indireclty about giving 10%, but when we filter this through the NT, we come out with a different result. Paul tells his readers to give what they can, but to do it with joy and not with grumbling (2 Corinthians 9:7).
So where do people get all this 10% stuff today? Part of it is based on the misconception just noted, and another part is that 10% is certainly a good benchmark given that it is the only benchmark used in all the bible. But note that its not required.
The bible doesn't teach us to give so that we can have some type of super-reward later when God blesses us with $70 for giving $7 or whatever. God is not a stock broker. We're to give because it breaks the power that money so easily holds over us. It is right and good to help others in need, and to pay the operating and other costs associated with the church.
The concept or word of tithe shows up in the following places in the NT. In Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42, 18:12 the giving of thithes is cast in a negative light because of the way that it was often practiced with no regard for justice, love of God, mercy, and faith. Paul deals indirectly with tithing in 2 Corinthians 9:7-13. The author of Hebrews 7 uses the account of Abraham's paying a tithe to the priest-king Melchizedek (see Gen 14.18-20) to show the superiority of Christ's priesthood, which his "after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 7:11, 17).
I hope this helps.
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Cathar1950
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Post #36
"Thus says YAHWEH of hosts, the God of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh yourselves. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices." (Jeremiah Chapter 7 verse 21)
"This is the portion of Aaron and of his sons from the offerings made by fire to YAHWEH, consecrated to them on the day they were presented to serve as priests of YAHWEH; YAHWEH commanded this to be given them by the people of Israel, on the day that they were anointed; It is their due forever throughout their generations. This is the law of the burnt offering, of the cereal offering, of the sin offering, of the guilt offering, of the consecration, and of the peace offerings, which YAHWEH commanded Moses on Mount Sinai, on the day that he commanded the people of Israel to bring their offerings to YAHWEH, in the wilderness of Sinai." (Leviticus Chapter 7 verse 35)
Who are you going to believe?"Now my people do not know the requirements of God. How can you say, ‘we are wise, for we have the law of God,' when, actually, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie." (Jeremiah Chapter 8 verse 7)
It seems tithes were to support the priestly class and some prophets had objections such as letting your family starve. If you got 10% of anything left over smile and share it with some one.
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sandycorgi
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Tithes
Post #37I think Tithes are a thing of the OT.
In the NT and very specifically in 2 Cor 8: 13 & 14 it speaks of there being financial equality amongst the believers.
In Acts chapters 2 and 4 it also states that the believers also sold goods in order to help one another. There was a genuine sharing of resources.
Unfortunately, this is virually absent from the modern church, where individualism ( pietism ) rules the roost and any sort of bodily identity only reaches an emotional basis.
Its a pity because people "in the world" are looking for some sort of alternative lifestyle which Christians SHOULD be offering but simply are not doing so.
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McCulloch
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Re: Tithes
Post #38The idea of a tithe is nowhere in the NT explicitly stated.sandycorgi wrote:I think Tithes are a thing of the OT.
And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own, but all things were common property to them. If nothing that is yours belongs to you, then how can you tithe a 10th of what you have?sandycorgi wrote:In the NT and very specifically in 2 Cor 8: 13 & 14 it speaks of there being financial equality amongst the believers.
In Acts chapters 2 and 4 it also states that the believers also sold goods in order to help one another. There was a genuine sharing of resources.
But they are. The only true Christians are Hutterites and Amish. The rest are just faking it.sandycorgi wrote:Its a pity because people "in the world" are looking for some sort of alternative lifestyle which Christians SHOULD be offering but simply are not doing so.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
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housejam88
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tithing
Post #39obviously if you choose to tithe you have a biblical sense of what God needs you to do to keep a ministry alive. My minister drives a small toyota pickup to get the best gas milage because he has so many visits to do.
If it was not for my preacher...my father would never have been taught about the Lord. If you love God ....money does not matter to you...making sure that people are cared for matters.
Our money goes to missions, sunday school books, a summer program, home missions for families in need , and yes.,..our minister receives a small salary...we would have it no other way....a christmas fund to help buy for kids on the holidays, food to deliver at thanksgiving or any other time in need, vacation bible school, childrens church, trips for kids, this money does not all go to the preacher...but i cannot think of a person with a harder job than his...winning peoples hearts to God.
And i will always look at it this way, I am doing my part....God will deal with anyone who abuses money that is given.
You must tithe without resentment...we enjoy giving our tithes...we enjoy watching the church reach out to others...this is what we choose to do with our money...besides the point that God directs our giving..he knows what it takes to run things...he doesn't hand out rules because he wants to tell us what to do...he want our lives to be better and prosper...i know because of my tithing that God has helped me overcome so many obsticals...
You can laugh at that and ask me where is my proof...but i tell you.. i need none... unless you truly love him...you cannot experience the love we feel and security
If it was not for my preacher...my father would never have been taught about the Lord. If you love God ....money does not matter to you...making sure that people are cared for matters.
Our money goes to missions, sunday school books, a summer program, home missions for families in need , and yes.,..our minister receives a small salary...we would have it no other way....a christmas fund to help buy for kids on the holidays, food to deliver at thanksgiving or any other time in need, vacation bible school, childrens church, trips for kids, this money does not all go to the preacher...but i cannot think of a person with a harder job than his...winning peoples hearts to God.
And i will always look at it this way, I am doing my part....God will deal with anyone who abuses money that is given.
You must tithe without resentment...we enjoy giving our tithes...we enjoy watching the church reach out to others...this is what we choose to do with our money...besides the point that God directs our giving..he knows what it takes to run things...he doesn't hand out rules because he wants to tell us what to do...he want our lives to be better and prosper...i know because of my tithing that God has helped me overcome so many obsticals...
You can laugh at that and ask me where is my proof...but i tell you.. i need none... unless you truly love him...you cannot experience the love we feel and security
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Flail
Tithes
Post #40Tithes are just another ritual. The implication has always been that this is money for God or for God's church, which implys that God has something to do with the Church or Christianity in the first place.
Martin Luther left the Church over the doctrine of 'indulgences'...which was a more direct fraud of teaching people to give money for specific needs....give money to the priest for your sister's illness and the priest will indulge the Lord to cure it . If it doesn't work, then the implication is that you are not worthy and need to give more money.
This is the basis for the Prosperity Ministries that are so prevalent today(watch Christian Television)....plant your seed of faith with the ministry and they will pray for your need or anoint some cloth you send them with oil they dip their hands in or some other magic act. They of course quote Bible verses in support of this scam.
I have called and e-mailed some of these Ministries asking if I could plant my seed of faith in other ways...by giving to the Salvation Army or a local family in need of tutoring or assistance...I was assured repeatedly that it 'does not work that way'...that I would need to give the money directly to the Ministry...that I had been called to give to them by God...that they would send me some form of free gift that had been touched or prayed over or dipped in something...and that if I were to do this with a specific need in mind....new car...new house...better job etc etc...that God would bless me with whatever I wanted....I went with Amway instead.
Martin Luther left the Church over the doctrine of 'indulgences'...which was a more direct fraud of teaching people to give money for specific needs....give money to the priest for your sister's illness and the priest will indulge the Lord to cure it . If it doesn't work, then the implication is that you are not worthy and need to give more money.
This is the basis for the Prosperity Ministries that are so prevalent today(watch Christian Television)....plant your seed of faith with the ministry and they will pray for your need or anoint some cloth you send them with oil they dip their hands in or some other magic act. They of course quote Bible verses in support of this scam.
I have called and e-mailed some of these Ministries asking if I could plant my seed of faith in other ways...by giving to the Salvation Army or a local family in need of tutoring or assistance...I was assured repeatedly that it 'does not work that way'...that I would need to give the money directly to the Ministry...that I had been called to give to them by God...that they would send me some form of free gift that had been touched or prayed over or dipped in something...and that if I were to do this with a specific need in mind....new car...new house...better job etc etc...that God would bless me with whatever I wanted....I went with Amway instead.
