Wisdom 12:5-7:
"...These merciless murderers of children, and parents who took with their own hands defenseless lives, You willed to destroy by the hands of our fathers, that the land that is dearest of all to you might receive a worth colony of God's children."
Some might say, "Okay, obviously God disapproves of infanticide, but that doesn't say that the fetus is a human being."
Psalm 51:7:
"True, I was born guilty, a sinner, even as my mother conceived me."
Now, how can a fetus have sin if a fetus doesn't have a soul, and how can a fetus have a soul if a fetus is a blob of cells and not a human?
Biblical Phrases Against Abortion
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Post #31
By tradition, it doesn't matter.. people argue about it, discuss what the lesson behind the story, and then make up their own mind. In the Jewish faith, what matters is the principles behind the story, and how those principles can be applied in the current age.scourge99 wrote: I don't believe all passages should be read literally. However, you beg an interesting question. How does one go about determining which scriptures to read literally and which to read metaphorically or otherwise?
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
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Post #32
Nitpicking grammarian note: Begging a question is when you assume to be true what you are attempting to prove. This raises not begs the question.scourge99 wrote:However, you beg an interesting question. How does one go about determining which scriptures to read literally and which to read metaphorically or otherwise?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John
Post #33
scourge99 wrote:I'm more than willing to reference other material. Granted, I'm unfamiliar with other Jewish texts. Where do these other texts obtain their authority?
Jews consider the Talmud scripture; it contains the Oral Law, which some Orthodox Jews will tell you God gave to Moses at Sinai. (I don't buy that myself, but ok.) It also contains midrash, debates on halacha (Jewish law), minority and majority opinions, stories about the rabbis of old, sayings of the rabbis of old, etc. It is a massive work, filling volumes and volumes. Only a few sections of it are 'easy reading' and accessible without loads of study--this is why we need our learned Talmudic scholars.
And we have post-Talmudic commentaries from great rabbis like Rashi, Maimonides (aka Rambam), and many, many others. Their commentaries aren't scripture, but carry considerable weight.
And we have the arguments, debates, interpretations and so forth that take place to this day in any Torah study class in any synagogue. Ultimately each Jew weighs scripture, commentaries and the decisions of her own branch of Judaism to the best of her abilities--and then makes up her own mind.
Again, ultimately, each Jew makes up his own mind. We don't have popes or bishops or such and, as I mentioned before, no Jew gets very far telling other Jews what to think. Although we have reached a consensus that the interpretations of rabbis like Rashi and Maimonides, whether you agree with them or not, are worth paying attention to--these guys were just that good and that convincing.scourge99 wrote:But our morals and our conscience are dependent on our environment and situations in part. Is everyone's interpretation right? Is there some type of vote? Do the people in power only have the authority to decide?
But the Jewish tradition as a whole goes by majority vote--at least as far as working out the implications of scripture on halacha. Here's a well known Talmudic story that should explain what I mean. (I'm editing it a bit, since it goes on for quite a while):
A group of rabbis were arguing about whether a certain stove had been kashered properly--that is, rendered fit for kosher cooking. (Yes, this story is about an almost ridiculously mundane, every-day issue.)
Rabbi Eliezer alone was declaring the stove clean. He brought forth every argument he could, and finally pointed to a tree and said, "If this stove is clean, let that carob tree prove it."
And, behold, the carob tree was miraculously torn from its roots and moved some 400 cubits.
The other rabbis were unimpressed. "No proof can be brought from a carob tree," they retorted.
Rabbi Eliezer was not about to give up. "If halacha agree with me, let that stream of water prove it!"
And, behold, miraculously the stream began to run backwards. But the other rabbis were still unimpressed. "No proof can be brought from a stream of water," they insisted.
Finally, Rabbi Eliezer said, "If I am correct, let it be proved from heaven!"
And a Voice from heaven thundered out, "Why do you dispute with Rabbi Eliezer? In all matters halacha agrees with him."
But Rabbi Joshua arose and said to the Voice, "The Torah is not in heaven!"
And God laughed, saying, "My children have defeated me; My children have defeated me."
And from that point onward matters of halacha were decided by majority vote.
The point of this story? The Torah isn't in Heaven; it's down here with us. God had His say at Sinai: now it's up to us to grapple and wrestle with the text. We have to bring the best of our reasoning and moral conscience to bear, and then let majority vote decide issues of halacha.
Different branches of Judaism have different law committees and such to deal with halachic issues. For example, Conservative Judaism has a Law Committee which votes on matters of halacha. Their decisions differ on occassion from Orthodox Judaism, sometimes significantly. The Conservative Law Committee, for example, voted that you can make a halachic case for gay marriage and therefore permits gay marriage. Orthodox Judaism disagrees and says consistently that gay marriage can never be halachic.
Two branches of Judaism--Reform and Reconstructionist--have outright declared that halacha is no longer binding, excepting moral laws which apply universally to all people. So they don't think Jews are obligated to observe the Sabbath or keep kosher and such (although individual Jews may choose to) and they have no issue at all with gay marriage.
Individual Jews, however, may or may not follow their branch of Judaism. Lots of non-observant Jews, for example, nonetheless belong to Orthodox synagogues.
