.
I say yes.
This thread was created in order to discuss/debate what is called the argument from design (teleological argument), which is a classical argument for the existence of God.
For more on what fine tuning is as it pertains to the argument, please read this wikipedia article..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe
Now, it is well known and established in science, that the constants and values which govern our universe is mathematically precise.
How precise?
Well, please see this article by Dr. Hugh Ross...
https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-u ... 1617224984
Excerpt...
"More than a hundred different parameters for the universe must have values falling within narrowly defined ranges for physical life of any conceivable kind to exist." (see above article for list of parameters).
Or..(in wiki article above, on fine tuning)..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... e#Examples
When you read the articles, you will find that there isn't much room for error.
If you start with a highly chaotic, random, disordered big bang, the odds are astronomically AGAINST the manifestation of sentient, human life.
How disordered was the big bang at the onset of the expansion...well, physicist Roger Penrose calculated that the chances of life originating via random chance, was 1 chance in 10^10^123 ( The Emperor’s New Mind, pg. 341-344.....according to..
https://mathscholar.org/2017/04/is-the- ... 20universe.
That is a double exponent with 123 as the double!!
The only way to account for the fine tuning of our universe..there are only 3 possibilities..
1. Random chance: Well, we just addressed this option..and to say not likely is the biggest understatement in the history of understatements.
If you have 1 chance in 10^10^123 to accomplish something, it is safe to say IT AIN'T HAPPENING.
2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.
3. Design: Bingo. First off, since the first two options are negated, then #3 wins by default...and no explanation is even needed, as it logically follows that #3 wins (whether we like it or not). However, I will provide a little insight.
You see, the constants and values which govern our universe had to have been set, as an INITIAL CONDITION of the big bang. By "set", I mean selectively chosen.
It is impossible for mother nature to have pre-selected anything, because nature is exactly what came in to being at the moment of the big bang.
So, not only (if intelligent design is negated) do we have a singularity sitting around for eons and expanding for reasons which cannot be determined (which is part of the absurdity), but we also have this singularity expanding with very low entropy (10^10^!23), which completely defies everything we know about entropy, to a degree which has never been duplicated since.
So, we have a positive reasons to believe in intelligent design...an intelligent design...a Cosmic Creator/Engineer...
We have positive reasons to believe in a God of the universe.
In closing...
1. No need to downplay fine tuning, because in the wiki article, you will see the fact that scientists are scrambling to try to find an explanation for fine tuning..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... planations
If there was no fine tuning, then you wouldn't need offer any explanations to explain it away, now would you?
2. Unless you can provide a fourth option to the above three options, then please spare me the "but there may be more options" stuff.
If that is what you believe, then tell me what they are, and I will gladly ADD THEM TO THE LIST AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALSO FAIL.
3. 10^10^123. Ouch.
Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #291"Fine tuned for life" indicates the universe failed all that life which no longer lives.
Considering such, it's perhaps more apt to say the universe is fine tuned for death.
Considering such, it's perhaps more apt to say the universe is fine tuned for death.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #292[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]
You've got it backwards. Human life is fine-tuned for the universe, well... for our little bitty tiny piece of it. Fine-tuned by evolution.
Tcg
You've got it backwards. Human life is fine-tuned for the universe, well... for our little bitty tiny piece of it. Fine-tuned by evolution.
Tcg
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #29310^10^123.Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:14 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]
You've got it backwards. Human life is fine-tuned for the universe, well... for our little bitty tiny piece of it. Fine-tuned by evolution.
Tcg
That, and dogs produce dogs.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #294I presented facts that address your question. Some will accept these facts; others will deny them.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:53 am10^10^123.Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:14 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]
You've got it backwards. Human life is fine-tuned for the universe, well... for our little bitty tiny piece of it. Fine-tuned by evolution.
Tcg
That, and dogs produce dogs.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
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- wiploc
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- Irvin D. Yalom
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- wiploc
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #295Yeah and I was with you all the way until "Fine tuned by evolution".Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:57 amI presented facts that address your question. Some will accept these facts; others will deny them.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:53 am10^10^123.Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:14 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]
You've got it backwards. Human life is fine-tuned for the universe, well... for our little bitty tiny piece of it. Fine-tuned by evolution.
Tcg
That, and dogs produce dogs.
Tcg
Kinda gave a black eye to the entire statement.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #296As I said, some will accept facts, and some won't.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:48 pmYeah and I was with you all the way until "Fine tuned by evolution".Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:57 amI presented facts that address your question. Some will accept these facts; others will deny them.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:53 am10^10^123.Tcg wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 7:14 am [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #1]
You've got it backwards. Human life is fine-tuned for the universe, well... for our little bitty tiny piece of it. Fine-tuned by evolution.
Tcg
That, and dogs produce dogs.
Tcg
Kinda gave a black eye to the entire statement.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
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- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #297I just gave you the facts...
Fact #1: 10^10^123
Fact #2: Dogs produce dogs, etc.
Those are facts. Dont know what more you want.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #298I want nothing more. I've presented reality. Some will accept it, some won't.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:44 pmI just gave you the facts...
Fact #1: 10^10^123
Fact #2: Dogs produce dogs, etc.
Those are facts. Dont know what more you want.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #299Good, then be content with what you have.
So did I.I've presented reality.
Yeah, and some will accept eternal life through Christ, some won't.Some will accept it, some won't.
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Re: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?
Post #300How does this address your O.P. or is it not intended to? The universe and life, remember? Or are you just now preaching rather than supporting your claims.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:01 pm
Yeah, and some will accept eternal life through Christ, some won't.
Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom
- American Atheists
Not believing isn't the same as believing not.
- wiploc
I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
- Irvin D. Yalom