Why Believe This Claim?

[POI]

Taken from an exchange here (posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1166484).

It doesn't matter to me what the disciples saw and experienced. I believe they saw and experienced a resurrected Jesus, but the particulars are of little interest to me.

In essence, I'd like to focus here...

For Debate: Why believe that a man laid dead in a tomb for 1 1/2 to 3 days, and then rose again?

[SiNcE_1985]

If the belief is true, then it should be beloved and protected to the bitter end.

If you want me to stop bringing up abiogenesis, then stop bringing up the resurrection.

Trying to slay us with irony I see.
Protected by telling people to not bring it up!
Imagine asking a flat earther why they believe the claim and they tell you that they will stop bringing up abiogenesisi if you stop bringing up a flat earth. You can't make this stuff up!

And you guys do the same thing on the side of evolution...once someone expresses disbelief in ToE, all of the naturalists come out of the woodwork.

Would anyone find it to be a valid defense of a flat earth by complaining about evolution? Someone is very confused here it seems.

"Why do you keep bringing up abiogenesis and evolution. Neither have anything to do with the subject. However, I'll keep mentioning flat earth(ers) though".

SMH.

[Clownboat]

Since the Lord Jesus Christ, though not seen by the naked eye, never stops and continues to perform His job as the Good Shepherd and Teacher of the Lord's flock across all generations, therefore, we can conclude that He is the only authority who can testify to us that the man named Jesus did truly rise on the third day.

Neato!
Now please show that you speak the truth on the matter. How is Jesus shepherding and teaching flocks to our current generation? Thanks for the specifics.

But for those who are not under Jesus’ shepherding,

I trust that you will evidence that this shepherding is actually happening.

their opinion and perceptions [on this issue], in men’s viewpoint, always dominate the battleground arena in most religious fora.

Can you clarify what this means please?

[Clownboat]

We need you to pretend that this is the case because you can't seem to discuss the topic at hand due to your fixation on abiogenesis and evolution.

But see, atheists have a long history of critiquing the positions of believers,

All religious claims in fact have been critiqued by atheists and believers of other god concepts. What point are you trying to make, or did you just need to get this off your chest?

without getting any pushback for their own beliefs;

What beliefs are you referring to here? Please be specific.

which is, the default position (abiogenesis and evolution) once God is removed from the equation.

Humans don't know how life first came about and the Theory of Evolution is falsifiable and not some default position. The default position about how did life arise is 'we don't know'. You need to correct your thinking on the matter.

They are always on the offense, and never on the defense.

Is this more complaining, or does it have a point?

Believers; we get so caught up on defending, that we miss out on all the heavenly glory of attacking.

Leaving this here for all to see.

So, every time I see "how could you believe in a dead man rising? That's ridiculous".

I'll then ask "Well, at least my belief is that God, a living being, raised Jesus from the dead. However, on your belief, there is no God; life just came to life from nonliving material and began to talk, think, and have sex".

We don't yet know how life came about. Why is it that you continue to fail realize this? I wonder if you would belief it if your youth pastor told you?...

It doesn't get any more ridiculous than that...and I'll attack that position every chance I get.

We all acknowledge that you continue to attach a false position and fail to defend your own.

Since we don't know how life came about on this planet, it is a lie to accuse us of knowing that which we don't.

If your telling me the light is not on, your also telling me that the light is off.

Your failure to realize that we don't know how life came about informs me that the light is in fact on, just that nobody is home.

One affirmative claim negates the other.

Your affirmations in fact do not negate the fact that we don't know how life arose.

You don't get to claim that God doesn't exist, but then suddenly play dumb and take the agnostic position on abiogenesis.

I don't claim that gods don't exist. I currently don't find any of the available ones to be credible at the moment though. Perhaps if a Christian would come to this debate site and lie about atheists and their position, maybe that would convince me.

No. If you don't believe one, you believe the other by default

False. You forget the 'currently withholding belief' option that exists. You will know them by their fruits.

We wouldn't be having this conversation, if you don't mind the idea of God.

Thanks Christian for telling me how I feel about the possibility of a God existing.

This fails to address what was asked of you. I assume you do understand that inserting a god concept into gaps of knowledge is not a valid path to truths so you instead preferred to insert the claim that your preferred god explains thing.

Its not God of the gaps, because I don't insert God based on what I don't understand.

You have demonstrated that you do by your failure to understand evolution and that fact that we don't know how life arose. You are doing God of the gaps.

I insert God based on what I do understand.

Let's test that shall we?
Do you understand that we don't know how life arose on this planet?

Like I already said, I acknowledge your inability to justify gods, angels, demons, talking animals and reanimated corpses. I acknowledge that you assert and likely even believe that Christian theism is true. This claim is not very interesting though.

Oh, you accept the presented evidence for Christianity?

What are you on about?! Christianity is a real thing. I was once one myself.

I wouldn't know such a thing. Please remember what I said:
"If there is a real God out there, I believe it would examine me for being good for goodness sake and appreciate such a thing. Especially when compared to a person like yourself that is only good because of eternal threats made by religion. Societies created religions after all to control people like yourself, and you are an example of how that works. We need you to be religious, lest you start harming the rest of society."

Why not address what I actually said? Do you think that if there was such a God out there, that it would be more impressed with a person that is 'good' because they desire to be 'good', or that they are 'good' because they fear being thrown into a hell?
Imagine Tim: Tim is a good dude. Not perfect, but generally a good dude.
Imagine Tom: Tom would go around raping and killing if not for his Christian upbringing putting fear in him to not do such things.
If you were said God, would you take Tim or Todd to eternity?

Um, have you ever heard of deism?

Tim or Todd? Not have you heard of deism.

[OneJack]

Since the Lord Jesus Christ, though not seen by the naked eye, never stops and continues to perform His job as the Good Shepherd and Teacher of the Lord's flock across all generations, therefore, we can conclude that He is the only authority who can testify to us that the man named Jesus did truly rise on the third day.

Neato!
Now please show that you speak the truth on the matter. How is Jesus shepherding and teaching flocks to our current generation? Thanks for the specifics.

We are living witnesses today to the Lord Jesus Christ that He, since the very beginning, is the only Good Shepherd and Teacher of the flock of the Lord across all generations. We discovered this from the Lord when one day in 2001 my family, relatives, and friends call upon the Lord due to a serious family problem. Much to our surprise, the Lord responded to us through automatic writing [of the hand of a young boy] saying “ang aking espiritu ay gumagabay sa inyo,” That was the start and the revelation of the good news came to the boy first through the angels of the Lord

But for those who are not under Jesus’ shepherding,

I trust that you will evidence that this shepherding is actually happening. [/quote]

What I can give you are excerpt from the utterances of the Lord Jesus when He finally revealed Himself to us.

their opinion and perceptions [on this issue], in men’s viewpoint, always dominate the battleground arena in most religious fora.

Can you clarify what this means please?

This means that what they’re saying are NOTHING but just their opinion on biblical passages they read from the bible.

[Clownboat]

Since the Lord Jesus Christ, though not seen by the naked eye, never stops and continues to perform His job as the Good Shepherd and Teacher of the Lord's flock across all generations, therefore, we can conclude that He is the only authority who can testify to us that the man named Jesus did truly rise on the third day.

Neato!
Now please show that you speak the truth on the matter. How is Jesus shepherding and teaching flocks to our current generation? Thanks for the specifics.

We are living witnesses today to the Lord Jesus Christ that He, since the very beginning, is the only Good Shepherd and Teacher of the flock of the Lord across all generations. We discovered this from the Lord when one day in 2001 my family, relatives, and friends call upon the Lord due to a serious family problem. Much to our surprise, the Lord responded to us through automatic writing [of the hand of a young boy] saying “ang aking espiritu ay gumagabay sa inyo,” That was the start and the revelation of the good news came to the boy first through the angels of the Lord, saying [in English translation]:

March 26, 1987, a boy was born and named Marco or Makie. From childhood, Makie's eyes were open to spirits like angels and demons. As he grew up, he didn't tell anyone what he saw. Many times a day, he saw spirits. Sometimes they were with him while walking, sometimes while eating, but the light spirits of the angels didn't speak. The spirits with ugly appearances, however, said and ordered him to do things. As time passed, the number of spirits he saw increased. This went on and on, and the number kept growing. He was 7 years old when this mysterious event happened. Here's his account:

11:30 PM, I woke up feeling strange, accompanied by a cold wind that seemed to be circulating around me. Soon, I heard a loud thud, and a fire came out from the ceiling of our house and suddenly disappeared. Exactly 12:00 AM, a cold smoke entered the house with seven lights, but I didn't know they were angels. Suddenly, they spoke for the first time, saying,

"Peace, don't be afraid or troubled, for we are angels sent from heaven to reveal God's blessing to you. The return of the Lord God Almighty is near, and you will prepare His way in the world. Listen, you, your uncle Rosento's family, a woman named Marita, and your cousin Rebida's family will be revealed by God on the appointed day. Listen carefully, at first, Rebida and her family will be with you in the ministry God will establish, but because of her trust in a person, they will be removed from that ministry. However, a worker of your uncle and his family will replace Rebida's family, but not all members of the family of your uncle's worker will be part of the church you will establish, because some of them still have doubts. A man will also be with you because he will work with Marianie's nephew, Rosento's wife's relative. Before all this happens, you will have an unusual illness because that illness will come from demons. You won't be able to study for a year because of your illness. You will be taken to different hospitals, but none of the doctors who examine you will be able to explain your illness and will say you're going crazy. Even albularios (spiritual healers) won't be able to explain your illness and will say you're bewitched. You and the albulario will be played by demons, and one person will be ruined. Many will stay away from you because they think you're crazy. The demons will do many things to destroy you completely. Before we leave, there's only one question you need to answer: Do you agree to these things happening or not?"

I answered and said I agreed to that agreement. After my answer, the angels said goodbye, but before they left, they introduced themselves and said their names - Michael, Daniel, Samuel, Raniel, Ezekiel, Gristel, and Josakiel. And the angels left.

But for those who are not under Jesus’ shepherding,

I trust that you will evidence that this shepherding is actually happening.

What I can give you are excerpt from the utterances of the Lord Jesus when He finally revealed Himself to us.

Thus saith the Lord Jesus:

“I am the Pastor, I am the Good Pastor. Remember, no one else will teach you except Me. If you explain to one another, it's only according to your own will, according to your own thoughts. So remember, anyone who stands as a pastor, who stands as a leader of My church, is working iniquity and stealing My place as the Good Pastor. Because you are only human, you who are pastors, you who teach and stand before people, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons in My name, remember that when I return, many will call out to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we do mighty works and cast out demons in Your name, didn't we heal?' But remember, I will say to them, 'I never knew you, I never recognized you, you who work iniquity, you who cast out demons.' Remember, when you cast out demons, you're taking away the role that belongs to Me. If you encounter someone possessed by a demon, just pray to Me, and I am ready to hear your prayer and will listen to every complaint you whisper to Me, every cry you make, every prayer you offer. I will help you and never abandon you, especially those who are Mine and follow Me.”

their opinion and perceptions [on this issue], in men’s viewpoint, always dominate the battleground arena in most religious fora.

Can you clarify what this means please?

This means that what they’re saying are NOTHING but just their opinion on biblical passages they read from the bible.

I must reject your claim for the same reason you would reject this claim if it were to come from a Muslim. Also, your claim was that this is being done across all generations, something not evidenced either.

If a Muslim or a Hindu for example made similar claims, you would be justified in not finding them credible. Why? I'm glad you asked.
Anecdotal evidence is information based on personal stories or experiences rather than systematic scientific data. While it can be emotionally compelling and relatable, it is not considered reliable for making broad conclusions because it often lacks scientific rigor and can be influenced by bias.

Imagine what would happen if anecdotal evidence was legit. Now imagine walking into a psych ward and I trust you will better see why what I say is true. If you feel that I'm wrong, I would love to hear why anecdotal evidence should be credible.

[OneJack]

My job is to spread what God commanded us to spread to all, regardless of language and race; hence, I have done with my job in this talk. Also, it’s not your call to tell me which is legit and which is not but Jesus alone. Even Jesus does not force anyone to believe in Him, because of the free will He endowed us with from the beginning of creation. Science rigor is not essential in the merits of salvation, btw!

[Clownboat]

My job is to spread what God commanded us to spread to all, regardless of language and race; hence, I have done with my job in this talk. Also, it’s not your call to tell me which is legit and which is not but Jesus alone. Even Jesus does not force anyone to believe in Him, because of the free will He endowed us with from the beginning of creation. Science rigor is not essential in the merits of salvation, btw!

OneJack... debate is clearly not for you.
Might I suggest a soap box on a street corner? There you will be free to shout your beliefs into peoples faces all day long.
Here... is a place for debate to take place.

Question for you. If you prayed really hard to your preferred god concept, do you think it could help you argue as to why anecdotal evidence should be considered as valid?
If you heard some anecdotal evidence from Muslims about Allah, would you convert? Do I know what a rhetorical question is?

Be well...

[OneJack]

My job is to spread what God commanded us to spread to all, regardless of language and race; hence, I have done with my job in this talk. Also, it’s not your call to tell me which is legit and which is not but Jesus alone. Even Jesus does not force anyone to believe in Him, because of the free will He endowed us with from the beginning of creation. Science rigor is not essential in the merits of salvation, btw!

OneJack... debate is clearly not for you.
Might I suggest a soap box on a street corner? There you will be free to shout your beliefs into peoples faces all day long.
Here... is a place for debate to take place.

Question for you. If you prayed really hard to your preferred god concept, do you think it could help you argue as to why anecdotal evidence should be considered as valid?
If you heard some anecdotal evidence from Muslims about Allah, would you convert? Do I know what a rhetorical question is?

Be well...

If you're unable to provide counter-evidence [you heard and learned from the Almighty God] that Jesus isn't shepherding His sheep across all generations, it seems like you're harboring resentment rather than engaging in a debate.

[Clownboat]

If you're unable to provide counter-evidence [you heard and learned from the Almighty God] that Jesus isn't shepherding His sheep across all generations, it seems like you're harboring resentment rather than engaging in a debate.

I did address your claim, asked you follow up questions, but sadly, you have demonstrated the truth of my words.
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. - Socrates

Like I said, debate doesn't seem to be for you, or at least not why you are here on this debate site (irony, right!). Now is your chance to prove me wrong though and address the debate questions that were posed to you and we'll see if we can have a fruitful discussion. Perhaps we both might learn something?

Or be deceived, pretend that I harbor resentment and ignore my questions.
Don't have a spirit of fear now...

[POI]

Still trying to peel back the layers.... Please recall, the debate topic asked "why believe this claim"? Even if a supernatural creating agency exists, why believe THIS particular claim? So far, it would appear the only real reason you believe in THIS claim is because you were indoctrinated at an early age. And when one attempts to press the specifics, you abort. This tells your interlocutor that you may not have much confidence in the actual veracity of your indoctrinated belief?

I find arguments for the existence of God to be convincing..

The provided 'steelman' already surpassed this topic and just assumes a 'god' is real...

I also find arguments for the Resurrection of Jesus to be convincing.

Were you a believer in THIS claim (before or after) you were aware of any of these so-called arguments? If it was (before), then addressing them is irrelevant. If it was (after), I'd sure like to know what argument(s) actually convinced you that "a man rose from his grave to say hi to his followers"? So far, you offered Paul's testimonial. However, we now know this cannot be it?

I know you'd probably like to dive into those, but this isn't place for it.

See my response at the top in red.

Only as I deem it relevant.

It's not relevant in this topic. You are instead just obsessed with this particular topic and cannot help but to mention it all the time. Likely because if it were true, it would pose as one of the biggest challenges to your indoctrinated belief.

Just like every atheist I debated, who was indoctrinated with the ToE, thinks it is true.

Again, absolutely irrelevant, as there does not exist countless (sects or denominations) for the aforementioned irrelevant topic. As I stated, all Christians argue that their specific flavor of 'Christianity' is the correct one. And I just so happened to be debating the one with the correct (view/translation).

Genetic Fallacy.

Just another hand-wave. Until you demonstrate anything above mere indoctrination into this very specific set of beliefs, your beliefs are not validated or justified.

Well, I find my mention of those things to be relevant.

They are not, as you would still likely be a believer even if all of them were debunked, to your own personal satisfaction, which again, leads us right back to indoctrination.

Genetic Fallacy.

You've missed the entire point. You apply special pleading. Your given 'evidence' is neither (different or better) than the Mormon's evidence. The Orthodox Jews reject your position for pretty much the exact same reason you reject the Mormon's position. Such as, (Jesus/Joseph) was directed by "evil". And/or, (Jesus/Joseph's) claims do not align with OT prophecy or claims.

Yeah, and in others,...

Thanks for acknowledging that Jesus also rewards blind faith (over) evidence-based conclusions.