Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

[We_Are_VENOM]

.

I say yes.

This thread was created in order to discuss/debate what is called the argument from design (teleological argument), which is a classical argument for the existence of God.

For more on what fine tuning is as it pertains to the argument, please read this wikipedia article..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe

Now, it is well known and established in science, that the constants and values which govern our universe is mathematically precise.

How precise?

Well, please see this article by Dr. Hugh Ross...

https://wng.org/roundups/a-fine-tuned-u ... 1617224984

Excerpt...

"More than a hundred different parameters for the universe must have values falling within narrowly defined ranges for physical life of any conceivable kind to exist." (see above article for list of parameters).

Or..(in wiki article above, on fine tuning)..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... e#Examples

When you read the articles, you will find that there isn't much room for error.

If you start with a highly chaotic, random, disordered big bang, the odds are astronomically AGAINST the manifestation of sentient, human life.

How disordered was the big bang at the onset of the expansion...well, physicist Roger Penrose calculated that the chances of life originating via random chance, was 1 chance in 10^10^123 ( The Emperor’s New Mind, pg. 341-344.....according to..

https://mathscholar.org/2017/04/is-the- ... 20universe.

That is a double exponent with 123 as the double!!

The only way to account for the fine tuning of our universe..there are only 3 possibilities..

1. Random chance: Well, we just addressed this option..and to say not likely is the biggest understatement in the history of understatements.

If you have 1 chance in 10^10^123 to accomplish something, it is safe to say IT AIN'T HAPPENING.

2. Necessity: This option is a no-go..because the constants and parameters could have been any values..in other words, it wasn't necessary for the parameters to have those specific values at the onset of the big bang.

3. Design: Bingo. First off, since the first two options are negated, then #3 wins by default...and no explanation is even needed, as it logically follows that #3 wins (whether we like it or not). However, I will provide a little insight.

You see, the constants and values which govern our universe had to have been set, as an INITIAL CONDITION of the big bang. By "set", I mean selectively chosen.

It is impossible for mother nature to have pre-selected anything, because nature is exactly what came in to being at the moment of the big bang.

So, not only (if intelligent design is negated) do we have a singularity sitting around for eons and expanding for reasons which cannot be determined (which is part of the absurdity), but we also have this singularity expanding with very low entropy (10^10^!23), which completely defies everything we know about entropy, to a degree which has never been duplicated since.

So, we have a positive reasons to believe in intelligent design...an intelligent design...a Cosmic Creator/Engineer...

We have positive reasons to believe in a God of the universe.

In closing...

1. No need to downplay fine tuning, because in the wiki article, you will see the fact that scientists are scrambling to try to find an explanation for fine tuning..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tune ... planations

If there was no fine tuning, then you wouldn't need offer any explanations to explain it away, now would you?

2. Unless you can provide a fourth option to the above three options, then please spare me the "but there may be more options" stuff.

If that is what you believe, then tell me what they are, and I will gladly ADD THEM TO THE LIST AND EXPLAIN WHY THEY ALSO FAIL.

3. 10^10^123. Ouch.

[William]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #236]

I'm still firmly in the "product of the brain" camp, but your hypothesis is a fascinating alternate explanation. While it may appear to propose a 'god', to my -ahem- mind, it lacks the baggage of so many such claims.

I know you are not partial to video JK - but for the readers who are;



From the link;

Are we living in someone's mind? Why is the structure of the universe so similar to the brain?
105,103 views Aug 3, 2022

-Chapters-
0:00 Are we living in someone's mind?
1:35 Comparison between the brain and the universe
4:24 Why is the structure of the universe similar to the brain?
5:42 4 types of Intelligent life
8:37 The secret of the universe

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #236]

I'm still firmly in the "product of the brain" camp, but your hypothesis is a fascinating alternate explanation. While it may appear to propose a 'god', to my -ahem- mind, it lacks the baggage of so many such claims.

I know you are not partial to video JK - but for the readers who are;



From the link;

Are we living in someone's mind? Why is the structure of the universe so similar to the brain?
105,103 views Aug 3, 2022

-Chapters-
0:00 Are we living in someone's mind?
1:35 Comparison between the brain and the universe
4:24 Why is the structure of the universe similar to the brain?
5:42 4 types of Intelligent life
8:37 The secret of the universe

I watched it all and don't see anything really compelling. That the universe produces similar structures is a mundane observation. That humans have similar myths is indicative of observing the same universe. And networks benefit from having multiple nodes, so again, nothing compelling.

I do note a common tactic, presented there at the end, is to accuse folks of being "close minded" when they can't be convinced of an argument. NOT that William is endorsing such.

[William]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #262]

Subject: Is The Universe Fine Tuned for Human Life?

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #236]

I'm still firmly in the "product of the brain" camp, but your hypothesis is a fascinating alternate explanation. While it may appear to propose a 'god', to my -ahem- mind, it lacks the baggage of so many such claims.

I know you are not partial to video JK - but for the readers who are;



From the link;

Are we living in someone's mind? Why is the structure of the universe so similar to the brain?
105,103 views Aug 3, 2022

-Chapters-
0:00 Are we living in someone's mind?
1:35 Comparison between the brain and the universe
4:24 Why is the structure of the universe similar to the brain?
5:42 4 types of Intelligent life
8:37 The secret of the universe

I watched it all and don't see anything really compelling. That the universe produces similar structures is a mundane observation. That humans have similar myths is indicative of observing the same universe. And networks benefit from having multiple nodes, so again, nothing compelling.

Yes. I think one would have to be looking for evidence of that nature for such information to be remotely compelling.
I simply add it to the information I already have [re the idea we exist within a creation and The Cosmic Mind] - which you admit you have no ability to debunk.
Thus, I have no compulsion to think that the mundane view anyone might have about the information, is reason enough for me to drop this concept as if it were a valueless pursuit unworthy of further investigation.

I do note a common tactic, presented there at the end, is to accuse folks of being "close minded" when they can't be convinced of an argument. NOT that William is endorsing such.

I don't think the maker of the video is endorsing such either.

[@Time Stamp 11:20 [end of the video]]

That is exactly the goal of this channel, the "Eye of Truth"
I hope that watching the videos on this channel will get you to think a little bit about our world.
That's what motivates me to keep making videos.
Thank you for watching.

[JoeyKnothead]

I watched it all and don't see anything really compelling. That the universe produces similar structures is a mundane observation. That humans have similar myths is indicative of observing the same universe. And networks benefit from having multiple nodes, so again, nothing compelling.

Yes. I think one would have to be looking for evidence of that nature for such information to be remotely compelling.

Agreed. I hope I gave it a fair listen, but respect I might be biased in ways maybe I ain't aware of.

I simply add it to the information I already have [re the idea we exist within a creation and The Cosmic Mind] - which you admit you have no ability to debunk.

I do preciate you respect me enough to just put your data "out there" without excuses or such.

I can't refute the video either.

Thus, I have no compulsion to think that the mundane view anyone might have about the information, is reason enough for me to drop this concept as a valueless pursuit unworthy of further investigation.

Your contributions're NEVER valueless to me. As I can't refute the video, it's further indication you're onto something.

I do note a common tactic, presented there at the end, is to accuse folks of being "close minded" when they can't be convinced of an argument. NOT that William is endorsing such.

I don't think the maker of the video is endorsing such either.

Yeah, that "dry" delivery wasn't trying to sell me so much as make me think.

Thanks friend, I'm scoring it a point in your favor.

[Inquirer]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #236]

I'm still firmly in the "product of the brain" camp, but your hypothesis is a fascinating alternate explanation. While it may appear to propose a 'god', to my -ahem- mind, it lacks the baggage of so many such claims.

I know you are not partial to video JK - but for the readers who are;



From the link;

Are we living in someone's mind? Why is the structure of the universe so similar to the brain?
105,103 views Aug 3, 2022

-Chapters-
0:00 Are we living in someone's mind?
1:35 Comparison between the brain and the universe
4:24 Why is the structure of the universe similar to the brain?
5:42 4 types of Intelligent life
8:37 The secret of the universe

So we're now embracing science fiction as well as science, why am I not surprised!

[JoeyKnothead]

So we're now embracing science fiction as well as science, why am I not surprised!

Says the bible promoter

[William]

So we're now embracing science fiction as well as science, why am I not surprised!

Says the bible promoter

Bible in Space...

https://moon.nasa.gov/system/video_item ... medium.m4v

[JoeyKnothead]

So we're now embracing science fiction as well as science, why am I not surprised!

Says the bible promoter

Bible in Space...

https://moon.nasa.gov/system/video_item ... medium.m4v

Rock in YouTube...

[William]

So we're now embracing science fiction as well as science, why am I not surprised!

Says the bible promoter

Bible in Space...

https://moon.nasa.gov/system/video_item ... medium.m4v

Rock in YouTube...

Fine Tunes for Human Life.

[Inquirer]

So we're now embracing science fiction as well as science, why am I not surprised!

Says the bible promoter

Bible in Space...

https://moon.nasa.gov/system/video_item ... medium.m4v

Rock in YouTube...

Fine Tunes for Human Life.

Noise.

Here's real music.