Is being Transgender a choice?

[AgnosticBoy]

I'm of the opinion that gender expression is a result of social conditioning. I know I used the word "choice" in the title, but that's only because people tend to associate behavior that can be changed or conditioned as being a "choice" (borrowing from the debate on born this way vs. choice).

In this thread, I want to focus on being transgender. Based on my above opinion, I also believe that being transgender is also a result of social conditioning (i.e. childhood experiences, what they learn from society, etc). If I'm right then I think that the recent focus on transgenderism in the media, in Hollywood, in schools, could lead some children to become transgender. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I also bring these points up because when some parents complain about their kids learning about transgenderism in school, the reaction is that it won't impact (some say "groom" ) the child into becoming transgender. If my view is correct, I think the pro-trans crowd should acknowledge that it can potentially influence children AND there's nothing wrong with that.

For Debate
1. Is being transgender a result of social conditioning?
2. Edit: Removed. Teaching kids about gender identity can be a separate thread.

[marke]

Why would an adult encourage a little child to pursue a change of gender or teach children that changing genders is an acceptable and healthy pursuit?

Again! I cannot think of any instances where 'little children' have been encouraged to pursue gender change.

Where are you getting this from?

Marke:

Public School Gender Policies That Exclude Parents Are UnconstitutionalJune 12, 2024
Authors:
Sarah Perry and Thomas Jipping

SummaryParents’ constitutional right to direct the upbringing and education of their children is the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests ever recognized by the Supreme Court. But a rapidly growing number of school districts across the country, already more than 1,000, have policies denying parents even the knowledge that their children may have expressed a desire to change their gender identity and any say in how school personnel respond. The nature of this problem, the surge in transgender-identifying youth, and the well-established rights of parents call for more, not less. Parents must act now to force school districts to change these transition policies, urge state legislatures to prohibit them, and, if necessary, defend their rights in court.
Key TakeawaysThe Supreme Court has long recognized parents’ fundamental right to direct the upbringing and education of their children.Many school districts prioritize children’s gender-related choices while actively excluding parents knowing of—let alone participating in—those choices.A minor child’s parents are not only in the best position to address that child’s self-professed gender identity, but they also have the right to do so.


Like others around the country, the Rockford, Michigan, Public School District requires parents’ permission for many things that affect their children’s safety, education, and personal well-being. But during the 2021–2022 school year, acting on nothing more than a seventh-grader’s e-mail to a school counselor, East Rockford Middle School personnel began treating the female student as a boy. They concealed the situation from the girl’s parents. Indeed, they altered school records that the parents might see and failed to disclose anything about this scheme even while communicating with them about other aspects of the girl’s mental health, well-being, and academic progress.1
The girl’s parents, Dan and Jennifer Mead, filed a lawsuit against the school district on December 18, 2023. See https://adfmedialegalfiles.blob.core​.w ... plaint.pdf.

In August 2020, administrative staff in the Escondido, California, Union School District, adopted a similar policy. They claimed that a student’s “assertion” of “gender identity,” by itself, requires school personnel to “begin to treat the student immediately, consistently with that gender identity. The student’s assertion is enough.”2
See Mirabelli v. Olson, No. 3:23–CV–00768–BEN–WVG, 2023 WL 5976992, at *4 (S.D. Cal. 2023).

Revealing a student’s “transgender status”3
In the Escondido policy, this term means “a student whose gender identity is different from the gender he/she was assigned at birth.” The text of the school policies referenced or quoted in this Legal Memorandum can be found at https://defendinged.org/investigations/ ... -policies/ (last visited May 14, 2024). For simplicity, they will be referred to by the school name.

to “individuals who do not have a legitimate need for the information”—including parents—is considered prohibited discrimination or harassment. Under the policy, “a student’s consent to reveal gender information is required, regardless of the age of the student.”

[oldbadger]

Why would an adult encourage a little child to pursue a change of gender or teach children that changing genders is an acceptable and healthy pursuit?

Again! I cannot think of any instances where 'little children' have been encouraged to pursue gender change.

Where are you getting this from?

Marke:

Public School Gender Policies That Exclude Parents Are UnconstitutionalJune 12, 2024
Authors:
Sarah Perry and Thomas Jipping

SummaryParents’ constitutional right to direct the upbringing and education of their children is the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests ever recognized by the Supreme Court. But a rapidly growing number of school districts across the country, already more than 1,000, have policies denying parents even the knowledge that their children may have expressed a desire to change their gender identity and any say in how school personnel respond. The nature of this problem, the surge in transgender-identifying youth, and the well-established rights of parents call for more, not less. Parents must act now to force school districts to change these transition policies, urge state legislatures to prohibit them, and, if necessary, defend their rights in court.
Key TakeawaysThe Supreme Court has long recognized parents’ fundamental right to direct the upbringing and education of their children.Many school districts prioritize children’s gender-related choices while actively excluding parents knowing of—let alone participating in—those choices.A minor child’s parents are not only in the best position to address that child’s self-professed gender identity, but they also have the right to do so.


Like others around the country, the Rockford, Michigan, Public School District requires parents’ permission for many things that affect their children’s safety, education, and personal well-being. But during the 2021–2022 school year, acting on nothing more than a seventh-grader’s e-mail to a school counselor, East Rockford Middle School personnel began treating the female student as a boy. They concealed the situation from the girl’s parents. Indeed, they altered school records that the parents might see and failed to disclose anything about this scheme even while communicating with them about other aspects of the girl’s mental health, well-being, and academic progress.1
The girl’s parents, Dan and Jennifer Mead, filed a lawsuit against the school district on December 18, 2023. See https://adfmedialegalfiles.blob.core​.w ... plaint.pdf.

In August 2020, administrative staff in the Escondido, California, Union School District, adopted a similar policy. They claimed that a student’s “assertion” of “gender identity,” by itself, requires school personnel to “begin to treat the student immediately, consistently with that gender identity. The student’s assertion is enough.”2
See Mirabelli v. Olson, No. 3:23–CV–00768–BEN–WVG, 2023 WL 5976992, at *4 (S.D. Cal. 2023).

Revealing a student’s “transgender status”3
In the Escondido policy, this term means “a student whose gender identity is different from the gender he/she was assigned at birth.” The text of the school policies referenced or quoted in this Legal Memorandum can be found at https://defendinged.org/investigations/ ... -policies/ (last visited May 14, 2024). For simplicity, they will be referred to by the school name.

to “individuals who do not have a legitimate need for the information”—including parents—is considered prohibited discrimination or harassment. Under the policy, “a student’s consent to reveal gender information is required, regardless of the age of the student.”

Again!
I selected just one example from that long post and inspected it. No 'little girls' Marke!
Jennifer Meade was the subject of that case, a 13 yr old teenager. So in this case this was a girl who had commenced menstruation, and I can see how such a teenager could find themselves questioning their sexuality.

She had approached trusted adults at her school.

No 'little girls' ......... That's just your rhetoric.

[marke]

Why would an adult encourage a little child to pursue a change of gender or teach children that changing genders is an acceptable and healthy pursuit?

Again! I cannot think of any instances where 'little children' have been encouraged to pursue gender change.

Where are you getting this from?

Marke:

Public School Gender Policies That Exclude Parents Are UnconstitutionalJune 12, 2024
Authors:
Sarah Perry and Thomas Jipping

SummaryParents’ constitutional right to direct the upbringing and education of their children is the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests ever recognized by the Supreme Court. But a rapidly growing number of school districts across the country, already more than 1,000, have policies denying parents even the knowledge that their children may have expressed a desire to change their gender identity and any say in how school personnel respond. The nature of this problem, the surge in transgender-identifying youth, and the well-established rights of parents call for more, not less. Parents must act now to force school districts to change these transition policies, urge state legislatures to prohibit them, and, if necessary, defend their rights in court.
Key TakeawaysThe Supreme Court has long recognized parents’ fundamental right to direct the upbringing and education of their children.Many school districts prioritize children’s gender-related choices while actively excluding parents knowing of—let alone participating in—those choices.A minor child’s parents are not only in the best position to address that child’s self-professed gender identity, but they also have the right to do so.


Like others around the country, the Rockford, Michigan, Public School District requires parents’ permission for many things that affect their children’s safety, education, and personal well-being. But during the 2021–2022 school year, acting on nothing more than a seventh-grader’s e-mail to a school counselor, East Rockford Middle School personnel began treating the female student as a boy. They concealed the situation from the girl’s parents. Indeed, they altered school records that the parents might see and failed to disclose anything about this scheme even while communicating with them about other aspects of the girl’s mental health, well-being, and academic progress.1
The girl’s parents, Dan and Jennifer Mead, filed a lawsuit against the school district on December 18, 2023. See https://adfmedialegalfiles.blob.core​.w ... plaint.pdf.

In August 2020, administrative staff in the Escondido, California, Union School District, adopted a similar policy. They claimed that a student’s “assertion” of “gender identity,” by itself, requires school personnel to “begin to treat the student immediately, consistently with that gender identity. The student’s assertion is enough.”2
See Mirabelli v. Olson, No. 3:23–CV–00768–BEN–WVG, 2023 WL 5976992, at *4 (S.D. Cal. 2023).

Revealing a student’s “transgender status”3
In the Escondido policy, this term means “a student whose gender identity is different from the gender he/she was assigned at birth.” The text of the school policies referenced or quoted in this Legal Memorandum can be found at https://defendinged.org/investigations/ ... -policies/ (last visited May 14, 2024). For simplicity, they will be referred to by the school name.

to “individuals who do not have a legitimate need for the information”—including parents—is considered prohibited discrimination or harassment. Under the policy, “a student’s consent to reveal gender information is required, regardless of the age of the student.”

Again!
I selected just one example from that long post and inspected it. No 'little girls' Marke!
Jennifer Meade was the subject of that case, a 13 yr old teenager. So in this case this was a girl who had commenced menstruation, and I can see how such a teenager could find themselves questioning their sexuality.

She had approached trusted adults at her school.

No 'little girls' ......... That's just your rhetoric.

Marke: The world is divided between whether gender transitioning is good or whether it is bad. Among health and educational professionals who support gender transitioning of children, there exist differences of opinions about how early the transitioning of the child should begin. Naturally, there are major efforts to keep the lid on gender transitioning processes begun on school children, but there is no doubt the processes continue while keeping the public in the dark as much as possible.

For simplicity I am posting this testimony that shows a parent beginning gender transitioning on her child at the age of five with willing help from health professionals who saw nothing wrong with what she was doing to her child.

https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertain ... esson-love
My child is now ten. He transitioned at the age of five. By eighteen months I knew that this child, my fourth daughter, was different from the first three. In particular, she was very boyish, a characteristic which I had never thought about much before. Until Izzy, there were a lot of things I never thought about.

Now let me point out that several states in the US have passed laws banning such gender transitioning processes on children, not because it is not a problem or a threat but because it is a problem and a threat to children and society.

https://www.closeup.org/state-and-feder ... or-minors/

State and Federal Legislation on Gender-Affirming Care for Minors

October 9, 2024 by Katie Chandler

In the past six years, the introduction of bills in state legislatures to ban gender-affirming care for transgender and gender diverse youth has increased exponentially. In 2018, two such bills were introduced. In 2023, there were 185. Arkansas became the first state to ban gender-affirming care for youth in 2021; now, there are 26 states with bans on gender-affirming care for transgender youth. In response, other states have begun passing laws protecting access to gender-affirming care. It is estimated that 110,000 transgender teenagers, about 40 percent of transgender youth, live in states with bans on gender-affirming care.

[oldbadger]

Marke: The world is divided between whether gender transitioning is good or whether it is bad. Among health and educational professionals who support gender transitioning of children, there exist differences of opinions about how early the transitioning of the child should begin. Naturally, there are major efforts to keep the lid on gender transitioning processes begun on school children, but there is no doubt the processes continue while keeping the public in the dark as much as possible.

For simplicity I am posting this testimony that shows a parent beginning gender transitioning on her child at the age of five with willing help from health professionals who saw nothing wrong with what she was doing to her child.

]https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertain ... esson-love
My child is now ten. He transitioned at the age of five. By eighteen months I knew that this child, my fourth daughter, was different from the first three. In particular, she was very boyish, a characteristic which I had never thought about much before. Until Izzy, there were a lot of things I never thought about.

]Now let me point out that several states in the US have passed laws banning such gender transitioning processes on children, not because it is not a problem or a threat but because it is a problem and a threat to children and society.

https://www.closeup.org/state-and-feder ... or-minors/

State and Federal Legislation on Gender-Affirming Care for Minors

October 9, 2024 by Katie Chandler

In the past six years, the introduction of bills in state legislatures to ban gender-affirming care for transgender and gender diverse youth has increased exponentially. In 2018, two such bills were introduced. In 2023, there were 185. Arkansas became the first state to ban gender-affirming care for youth in 2021; now, there are 26 states with bans on gender-affirming care for transgender youth. In response, other states have begun passing laws protecting access to gender-affirming care. It is estimated that 110,000 transgender teenagers, about 40 percent of transgender youth, live in states with bans on gender-affirming care.

Well well.......and to think that you want to interfere with little Izzie's situation! Look what her mother wrote about Izzie!


My child is now ten. He transitioned at the age of five. By eighteen months I knew that this child, my fourth daughter, was different from the first three. In particular, she was very boyish, a characteristic which I had never thought about much before. Until Izzy, there were a lot of things I never thought about

I then went to an endocrinologist, who drew some blood from Izzy for lab work. When discussing the results, we found that my child had been making both sets of hormones, estrogen and testosterone, in equal parts. We learned that in a child so young, however, hormones can ebb and flow, and that this was not conclusive to anything. So what could we think? The endocrinologist said our child was transgender, but that we should not let a lab test alter our path. In short, we should continue to do what is right for Izzy

[marke]

Marke: The world is divided between whether gender transitioning is good or whether it is bad. Among health and educational professionals who support gender transitioning of children, there exist differences of opinions about how early the transitioning of the child should begin. Naturally, there are major efforts to keep the lid on gender transitioning processes begun on school children, but there is no doubt the processes continue while keeping the public in the dark as much as possible.

For simplicity I am posting this testimony that shows a parent beginning gender transitioning on her child at the age of five with willing help from health professionals who saw nothing wrong with what she was doing to her child.

]https://www.advocate.com/arts-entertain ... esson-love
My child is now ten. He transitioned at the age of five. By eighteen months I knew that this child, my fourth daughter, was different from the first three. In particular, she was very boyish, a characteristic which I had never thought about much before. Until Izzy, there were a lot of things I never thought about.

]Now let me point out that several states in the US have passed laws banning such gender transitioning processes on children, not because it is not a problem or a threat but because it is a problem and a threat to children and society.

https://www.closeup.org/state-and-feder ... or-minors/

State and Federal Legislation on Gender-Affirming Care for Minors

October 9, 2024 by Katie Chandler

In the past six years, the introduction of bills in state legislatures to ban gender-affirming care for transgender and gender diverse youth has increased exponentially. In 2018, two such bills were introduced. In 2023, there were 185. Arkansas became the first state to ban gender-affirming care for youth in 2021; now, there are 26 states with bans on gender-affirming care for transgender youth. In response, other states have begun passing laws protecting access to gender-affirming care. It is estimated that 110,000 transgender teenagers, about 40 percent of transgender youth, live in states with bans on gender-affirming care.

Well well.......and to think that you want to interfere with little Izzie's situation! Look what her mother wrote about Izzie!


My child is now ten. He transitioned at the age of five. By eighteen months I knew that this child, my fourth daughter, was different from the first three. In particular, she was very boyish, a characteristic which I had never thought about much before. Until Izzy, there were a lot of things I never thought about

I then went to an endocrinologist, who drew some blood from Izzy for lab work. When discussing the results, we found that my child had been making both sets of hormones, estrogen and testosterone, in equal parts. We learned that in a child so young, however, hormones can ebb and flow, and that this was not conclusive to anything. So what could we think? The endocrinologist said our child was transgender, but that we should not let a lab test alter our path. In short, we should continue to do what is right for Izzy

Marke: Brainwashing little kids to believe they can change the way they were born is evil. My niece fell into that deluded lifestyle and died in her early 20s as a result of the damages her body suffered from the medical malpractice of such uncivilized efforts to alter her birth gender.

[oldbadger]

Marke: Brainwashing little kids to believe they can change the way they were born is evil. My niece fell into that deluded lifestyle and died in her early 20s as a result of the damages her body suffered from the medical malpractice of such uncivilized efforts to alter her birth gender.

I'm surprised that you didn't mention your niece in your first post.
I wonder if you know what was written as a cause of death on her death certificate?

[marke]

Marke: Brainwashing little kids to believe they can change the way they were born is evil. My niece fell into that deluded lifestyle and died in her early 20s as a result of the damages her body suffered from the medical malpractice of such uncivilized efforts to alter her birth gender.

I'm surprised that you didn't mention your niece in your first post.
I wonder if you know what was written as a cause of death on her death certificate?

Marke: She died from blood clots in her heart that some medical professionals have attributed to the taking of testosterone which sometimes does that to women who are not designed to take testerone injections.
Both her parents are college professors at a secular university and she got her gender transitioning treatments from medical professionals considered to be among the best in the nation.

AI Overview
Learn more

Yes, testosterone injections can sometimes be unsafe for women, especially if administered inappropriately or in high doses. While they can be beneficial for specific conditions, such as low sex drive or symptoms of menopause, there are potential risks and side effects, including masculinizing symptoms, mood changes, and increased risk of certain cancers.
Here's a more detailed look at the risks and considerations:

2. Increased Risks:
Cancer:
There are concerns about increased risk of certain cancers, including breast cancer and endometrial cancer, although more research is needed.
Cardiovascular risks:
Testosterone therapy may increase the risk of heart disease and other cardiovascular problems.
Hypercalcemia:
High levels of testosterone can lead to elevated calcium levels in the blood, which can cause symptoms like fatigue, nausea, and kidney problems.
Missed underlying conditions:
Testosterone therapy might mask or delay the diagnosis of other underlying medical conditions.

More research is needed to fully understand the long-term effects of testosterone therapy in women.
In summary, while testosterone therapy can be beneficial for some women, it's not without risks. It's crucial to discuss the potential benefits and risks with a healthcare professional and to monitor testosterone levels and overall health closely to minimize potential harm.

Testosterone therapy in women: Does it boost sex drive?
Apr 22, 2023 — Due to a lack of research on long-term safety, testosterone therapy isn't right for women with heart, blood vessel or ...

Mayo Clinic
The Risks and Benefits of Testosterone Shots for Women
Jan 26, 2024 — Like other treatments, testosterone shots for women are not without risks. Some side effects of testosterone might inc...

[oldbadger]

Marke: She died from blood clots in her heart that some medical professionals have attributed to the taking of testosterone which sometimes does that to women who are not designed to take testerone injections.
Both her parents are college professors at a secular university and she got her gender transitioning treatments from medical professionals considered to be among the best in the nation.

So your niece, an adult, died doing what she wanted to do. And since both both her parents are intelligent and educated people I guess they all supported her decision to transition.

None of that is evil or wrong, it's just sad, no different from if she had passed her driving test and died in a car afterwards.

[marke]

Marke: She died from blood clots in her heart that some medical professionals have attributed to the taking of testosterone which sometimes does that to women who are not designed to take testerone injections.
Both her parents are college professors at a secular university and she got her gender transitioning treatments from medical professionals considered to be among the best in the nation.

So your niece, an adult, died doing what she wanted to do. And since both both her parents are intelligent and educated people I guess they all supported her decision to transition.

None of that is evil or wrong, it's just sad, no different from if she had passed her driving test and died in a car afterwards.

Marke: As a Christian I have a duty to warn kids against the dangers of accepting common ideologies and dogmas that will harm them.

[oldbadger]

Marke: As a Christian I have a duty to warn kids against the dangers of accepting common ideologies and dogmas that will harm them.

You may find that there are a few members on here who feel it their duty to warn parents to keep their children as safe as possible from some church's hates and dogmas?
Honestly, many churches have sthe strangest ideas about what is right.