Science without religion is lame,

[McCulloch]

What I said and what I meant was attached to this saying: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

So if we take that saying literally as I did, then without religion one is handicapped as "lame" and without science those are handicapped by being "blind".

Does science benefit from the inclusion of religion? Which religion? How? Be specific. Do the benefits outweigh the difficulties?

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #217]

One thing I will say though, is that regardless of if no reality without perception is correct, it isn't a very useful speculation.

I perceive this, differently. I agree that such observation may not be useful to materialism, BUT.

IF:

"There is no reality without perception", is correct

THEN:
This is a useful observation because it clearly proves that even given the hard problem of consciousness, the truth is that without consciousness, none of this would even be happening.

Since it is happening, it is useful speculation because it allows for consciousness to be examined as the primary reason that things are acknowledged as happening. The things happening are secondary to that matter of fact.

As for why they happen or why other things don't happen, consciousness seems not to be all that important, unless we're all living our lives in reverse and the forwards-people really can affect their universes with just consciousness. To the backwards-people, it would seem as if the world constantly strives to undo us.

The simple idea that consciousness is the stage on which everything plays out is still minimally useful. Even if only because we perceive facts as being separate from consciousness, we have to address reality that way. For example, if I can't levitate my pencil, I must perceive its groundedness, gravity's effect on it, as being an immutable fact separate from my perception, even if that's not really the case.

I can also think of myself as being effectively blind, and the pencil I see as a cold shadow of some object that is really there, the light that bounces off it telling me, this object is blue, when it has no actual blueness, there is no such real thing as blueness, and it has many real properties I cannot see, but this is also minimally useful.

[William]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #231]

The simple idea that consciousness is the stage on which everything plays out is still minimally useful.

Why so?

The examples you give appear to be materialistic-based as does your statement.

It is like admitting that a truth has been made evident but due to its minimal material value, is nothing to waste ones time on, due to its lack of usefulness to a materialist mind-set.

As if somehow that alone is a good enough reason to hand-wave said truth, away.

[Swami]

The simple idea that consciousness is the stage on which everything plays out is still minimally useful. Even if only because we perceive facts as being separate from consciousness, we have to address reality that way. For example, if I can't levitate my pencil, I must perceive its groundedness, gravity's effect on it, as being an immutable fact separate from my perception, even if that's not really the case.

May I suggest that consciousness is not just the stage, but it is also the producer, the actors, the facts, etc. All of these things are manifestations of consciousness, just as they would be in our dreams.

I can also think of myself as being effectively blind, and the pencil I see as a cold shadow of some object that is really there, the light that bounces off it telling me, this object is blue, when it has no actual blueness, there is no such real thing as blueness, and it has many real properties I cannot see, but this is also minimally useful.

I can not imagine how so many brilliant scientists and thinkers would waste their lives pursuing facts about the world without first inquiring about its nature. Western science is very backwards in this regard. Seek consciousness ™

The importance of consciousness

[Sherlock Holmes]

This is something I'd like to watch again - Yoga Unveiled - I watched it purely by fluke when it came on PBS years ago, absolutely superb and a far cry from the westernized obsession with the physical aspects of yoga.

[Purple Knight]

The examples you give appear to be materialistic-based as does your statement.

It is like admitting that a truth has been made evident but due to its minimal material value, is nothing to waste ones time on, due to its lack of usefulness to a materialist mind-set.

As if somehow that alone is a good enough reason to hand-wave said truth, away.

Like it or not, we live in a world that functions primarily on what we can or cannot do. Spiritual truth such as you seem to be hinting at, is extremely individual. Something that exists within only my perception is of minimal use to you and vice-versa.

The simple idea that consciousness is the stage on which everything plays out is still minimally useful. Even if only because we perceive facts as being separate from consciousness, we have to address reality that way. For example, if I can't levitate my pencil, I must perceive its groundedness, gravity's effect on it, as being an immutable fact separate from my perception, even if that's not really the case.

May I suggest that consciousness is not just the stage, but it is also the producer, the actors, the facts, etc. All of these things are manifestations of consciousness, just as they would be in our dreams.

I'm an accomplished lucid dreamer . My way of acquiring truth, I admit, is very Western, but it's good at producing results. I seek what can be done, what can be changed, what can be accomplished, and work backwards from there to try to get at the nature of reality.

I have, by the way, concluded that the future is as much an instrument of causing the past as vice-versa, which is not a Western idea at all, but I used the backward way of seeking truth to get there. Perhaps backwards or forwards doesn't matter.

[William]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #235]

Like it or not, we live in a world that functions primarily on what we can or cannot do.

To like it or not, one must judge it. I am not critiquing from a position of judgement.

Spiritual truth such as you seem to be hinting at, is extremely individual.

Fortunately there are an extremely large number of individuals, many who are subjectively interacting with Spiritual Truth.
Spiritual Truth = 212
Encouraging Indication
The Science of the Soul
Universal Objective
The Confusion of War
GOD is not an elitist.

Something that exists within only my perception is of minimal use to you and vice-versa.

Counterfactual: Something that exists within each of us is of maximum use to both of us when correlated. It is all information.

To like it or not, one must judge it = 366
Things Are Not Always As They Appear
What can and cant be done with information

It is all information = 216
The twelve disciples
The crabwood cropcircle
Sexual Encounters
The Power Of Creation
GOD became Gods and Goddesses.

[Purple Knight]

Something that exists within only my perception is of minimal use to you and vice-versa.

Counterfactual: Something that exists within each of us is of maximum use to both of us when correlated. It is all information.

Correct. Something that exists in both our perceptions is of great use. But when only I can see the evil clown and nobody else can, the evil clown isn't really useful to anybody, even me.

[William]

Something that exists within only my perception is of minimal use to you and vice-versa.

Counterfactual: Something that exists within each of us is of maximum use to both of us when correlated. It is all information.

Correct. Something that exists in both our perceptions is of great use. But when only I can see the evil clown and nobody else can, the evil clown isn't really useful to anybody, even me.

The Evil Clown = 148
Donald J Trump

It may just be the case that you presently are useful to the evil clown, since at least you can see it.



The Omega Point
Reason For Being
This Speaks of....
Yellow Light
God/Source/Home
Nuclear Energy
Inside I cry
Of the human being
In The Rabbit Hole

[Sherlock Holmes]

Something that exists within only my perception is of minimal use to you and vice-versa.

Counterfactual: Something that exists within each of us is of maximum use to both of us when correlated. It is all information.

Correct. Something that exists in both our perceptions is of great use. But when only I can see the evil clown and nobody else can, the evil clown isn't really useful to anybody, even me.

The Evil Clown = 148
Donald J Trump

It may just be the case that you presently are useful to the evil clown, since at least you can see it.



The Omega Point
Reason For Being
This Speaks of....
Yellow Light
God/Source/Home
Nuclear Energy
Inside I cry
Of the human being
In The Rabbit Hole

You're being unfair to Trump, he's actually quite a romantic:

[William]

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #239]

You're being unfair to Trump

I am simply doing the science and showing correlations. I simply show the results. I place no judgement on the results.