The Christian Response to Homosexuality

[micatala]

Many Christians consider homosexual practices to be immoral. The forum has multiple threads which include arguments as to whether or not homosexuality should be considered immoral, and even whether this position is supported Biblically.

In this thread, we will take it is a given that homosexuality is immoral.

Under this assumption, what should the response of Christians be to the existence of homosexuality? How should we interact with or treat persons who are homosexuals?

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?


Again, arguments concerning the morality of homosexuality are not relevant to the thread. What is relevant is discussion of the possible Christian responses to homosexuality, and what valid rationale there are for these responses.

[melikio]

I neither agree with a HATE CRIME LAW. there are already laws on the books.

And I don't agree with an anti-gay marriage/union amendment to the U.S. Constitution; there are already enough laws on the books to protect traditional marriage (if people who decide to go into them, would really "honor" them; they be stronger than EVER, and far more good would come of that, than any law meant to control the actions/freedoms of homosexual people.

If more "Christians" could focus MORE of their "zeal" upon their own faults and self-improvements, I think the world would be a LOT better than it is.

Homosexuality isn't going away, and neither is "Christianity" (as far as I can tell). Yet PEOPLE need to get along together, or destroy one another. That seems to be the bottom line or choice. And while many don't agree with compromise of any type, the reality is that human beings have always had to do so; we haven't ever been in some fantasy-utopia, nor are we living in a perfect place, like Heaven as it is described by many religions.

Homosexuals don't have to necessarily accept the sub-human treatment some have purposed to ROLL ONTO THEM, and those who would mistreat them aren't necessarily authorized or justified in forcing their moral or religious views upon them. A "Christian" responding to homosexuality can do so uncompromisingly (as it relates to their own heart or mind); but in a world where no one can read hearts, minds or know another person's life experiences in an absolutely perfect way, we cannot be absolute judge, jury and executioner as much as we would sometimes LIKE to think we could be. And that addresses both the physical and spiritual violence directed at homosexual people.

-Mel-

[smokeyparkin]

SO SHUT UP SUZANNE!!!!!!!

Please don't shut up Suzanne I am enjoying your input.

You cannot help the way you are born and the Christian church needs to starts realising that. The Old Testament is written based on the ideas of social acceptance during those periods.

I believe in god - but not in the bible, normal people like you or I wrote it. Some of the stories are true and others aren't.

One thing is for sure. God has never, and will never talk to man. He will never give us rules. He will never tell us anything. -- God isn't what the bible says he is. Man tries to make it simple and is defiantly isn't.

God wouldn't tell man that Homosexuality is wrong -- why would he? Please think about that...!

Whoever wrote about Lot and the city of Sodom has LOADS to answer for, because the story is not true... Like most things in the bible, made up!!

[Suzanne]

I neither agree with a HATE CRIME LAW. there are already laws on the books.

And I don't agree with an anti-gay marriage/union amendment to the U.S. Constitution; there are already enough laws on the books to protect traditional marriage (if people who decide to go into them, would really "honor" them; they be stronger than EVER, and far more good would come of that, than any law meant to control the actions/freedoms of homosexual people.

YES there are yet few see the GOOD and RIGHTEOUSNESS in the TRADITIONAL marriages now days do they. I am old fashioned and do not believe in just moving in with someone to see how it is going to work forget that. ALL relationships that end in marriage should be GOOD SOLID friendships first I HAVE NOT FOUND THAT TO be MY expierence . TO BAD forwe as men and woman but TO Many diferences between men and womanand they just do not seem to ever get REASONING TOGETHER DOWN do they??? and this is what IT really takes doesn't it REASONING TOGETHER AS SCRIPTURE DICTATES> BUT EITHER THE MAN WANTS ALL CONTROL or the woman does. when THE REALITY AND GOOD and right way is they work together as a team NOT ADVESARIES. IT is always a MY WAY OR NO WAY. and what it should be is GODS WAY OR NO WAY. AND THAT means GIVE AND TAKE BOTH GIVEING AND NOT REALY ANY TAKING> MUCH AT ALL ONLY WHAT IS BEING GIVEN TO BE RECIEVED AS A TOKEN OF the LOVE THEY HAVE for one another. BUT who THE HECK KNOWS about REAL LOVE TODAY?????? NOT MANY FEW IN FACT. because ONE HAS to UNDERSTAND the LOVE OF GOD FIRST. TO many do not believe IN HIS LOVE TO BEGIN WITH.

If more "Christians" could focus MORE of their "zeal" upon their own faults and self-improvements, I think the world would be a LOT better than it is.

NONE want to take responsibility for their own fault in any situation especially a marrital or friendship one. ALWAYS wanting to blame the other. WHEN NOTHING IS JUST ONE PERSONS FAULT when there are two INVOLVED> IT ALWAYS TAKES TWO THAT CAN BREAK IT OR MAKE> DEPENDS ON WHO WANT TO ACCEPT THEIR SHARE OF THE BLAME.

and MOST NEVER WANT TO SHARE IT they want to shove it off on someone else or something. I HAVE BEFORE MANY TIMES but I am learning the older I get. I STILL HAVE THAT what. tenatious about many things when I really believe I am RIGHT ABOUT something. ONE THING I HAVE LEARNED. when YOU ARE RIGHT YOU ARE RIGHT just make sure YOU ARE before TAKING YOUR STAND!!! ONCE YOU KNOW AND HAVE NO DOUBT about YOUR BEING RIGHT THEN TAKE YOUR STAND AND LET nothing DETER YOU. the IMPORTANT THING IS TO MAKE CERTAIN you are right according to all you know and YES FEEL i do not adhere to this no feeling bit that is preached. IF WE CANNOT FEEL WITHIN US OUR ANGERS HURTS AND LOVES then we might as well be DEAD .

Homosexuality isn't going away, and neither is "Christianity" (as far as I can tell). Yet PEOPLE need to get along together, or destroy one another. That seems to be the bottom line or choice. And while many don't agree with compromise of any type, the reality is that human beings have always had to do so; we haven't ever been in some fantasy-utopia, nor are we living in a perfect place, like Heaven as it is described by many religions.

I never did say I could not get along .. I can get along with ANYONE AND I MEAN THAT LITERALLY if they can GET ALONG WITH ME. FEW CAN.. I am TALKING ABOUT TRUE FRIENDSHIPS and TRUE RELATIONSHIPS. and that is because I am AS MANY HAVE SAID TO HONEST AND BOLD for my own good and I have even said that about myself BUT YET I WOULD RATHER be who I AM THEN BE someone that shows people a false face. I TRIED THAT DOESN"T WORK AT ALL and DOES NOT fit i either at all. WE ALL HAVE SEASONS IN THIS LIFE and GOD HAS THEM ALL CORRIGRAPHED. I believe that from the very inner being I AM. THAT IS what can and does give us our PEACE!!!!!!! when we can LITERALLY SIT BACK and SAY OK GOD I AM LETTING YOU. BOY How many times in my life have I had to say that. ALOT I CAN TELL YA. but it is another matter of life we all have to deal with .A SEASON FOR ALL THINGS. and I can tell yopu this THIS IS A NEW SEASON NEW DAY AND NEW LIFE AGAIN for me. I AM just waiting to see what GOD will have FOR ME NEXT> now that and this is good LIVING FOR ANYONE THAT wants it. IT DOES NOT ALWAYS come easy though most often it takes a CRISIS IN ONES LIFE TO BRING YOU TO the BOTTOM before YOU CAN GET TO the top again. MY LIFE IS NOT OVER I CAN TELL YA THAT.

Homosexuals don't have to necessarily accept the sub-human treatment some have purposed to ROLL ONTO THEM, and those who would mistreat them aren't necessarily authorized or justified in forcing their moral or religious views upon them. A "Christian" responding to homosexuality can do so uncompromisingly (as it relates to their own heart or mind); but in a world where no one can read hearts, minds or know another person's life experiences in an absolutely perfect way, we cannot be absolute judge, jury and executioner as much as we would sometimes LIKE to think we could be. And that addresses both the physical and spiritual violence directed at homosexual people.

UNCOMPROMISEING means the opposite of COMPROMISEING.. MAKING CONS CESSIONS like what?? LIKE TELLING Them that their SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP is JUST ALL WELL AND GOOD AND RIGHT TO be doing ??? SORRY no I nor anyone that believes in what the LORD GOD HAS ALREADY ORDAINED TO BE RIGHT AND GOOD CAN AGREE TO OR GIVE A GO AHEAD AND COMPROMISE .. do I AS A PERSON HAVE TO be MEAN SPIRITED NO!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT. BUT I WILL NOT LIE AND SAY I AGREE.. and I didn't either. when it came to an incident in my own family. there was going to be a LESBIAN union made BY A minister as far as I ca remember. I recieved the invitation. and I KNEW I WOULD GO IF AT ALL was able to make it. and I had the transpertation .. SO I WROTE AND EXPLAINED THAT THIS would be the case. YET I HAD TO LET HER KNOW THAT I WS NOT IN AGREEMENT with the RELATIONSHIP because of my CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN WHAT GOD HAS ORDAINED. about SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS. I MADE IT VERY PLAIN with NO UNCERTAIN TERMS THAT THIS IN NO WAY meant I LOVED HER OR HER CHOICE ANY LESS AND THAT MUST be UNDERSTOOD. THAT THIS WAS JUST SOMETHING I COULD NOT AGREE .. well as it turned out I was not able to go because I had no way of getting there .. BOTH MY KYDS HAD TO WORK and they would have liked to go also and IN TRUTH BOTH MY KYDS did not appreciate not one bit what I had doen aboyut my writting her. BUT TO BAD . someday they to shall understand. THAT GOD IS AFTER LL THE LAST WORD when it comes to what is right to do and wrong to do in any gven situation.NEVER LOOSING SIGHT OF HATEING SIN OF ANYKIND but yet HAVING GODS LOVE G FOR THE ONE who has sinned. IF we ever do that then we have LOST WHAT THIS LOVE OF GOD IS ALL ABOUT. can I MAKE ANY HOMOSEXUAL UNDERSTAND OR TURN FROM THEIR WANTING TO DO WHAT THEY LIKE AND WANT TO DO. NO!!!!!! BUT GOD CAN AND HE USES MANY WAYS TO DO THIS. and if they CHOOSE TO IGNORE GOD'S WILL AND CONTINUE IN THEIR SIN AFTER being TOLD OF IT THEN WHAT do YOU THINK THAT HEAVENLY FATHER WILL DO ??? NOTHING????? NO HE AFTER ALL HAS power to do JUST AS HE ALREADY HAS said HE WOULD DO< their are CURSING FOR DOING AND GOING AGAINST GOD'S NATURAL ORDAINED LAWS FOR MANKIND ..,

I WOULD RATHER HAVE HIS BLESSINGS. BUT that does not mean I have not had h His CURSING>> WE LL MOST CERTAINLY HAVE. PEOPLE JUST WOULD RATHER NOT LOOK AT THEM> because IT THEN WOULD MEAN THAT THEY HAVE TO FACE TRUTH > and that is that GOD IS> AND SO IS HIS WORD HE HAS HAD WRITTEN FOR US ALL AND there are just some things we will ne be able to DO AND GET AWAY with NO MATTER HOW WE WANT TO RATIONALIZE them. SO THEREFOR GOD IS A CHASTIZING HEAVENLY FATHER GOD ALMIGHTY HE HAS ALREADY HAD IT WRITTEN AND SAID AND IT HAS BEEN TAUGHT AND IS KNOWN BY ALL THAT HAVE DO AND WILL COME TO UNDERSTAND AND BELIEVE> GOD CHASTENS ALL THOSE HE LOVES!!!!!!!! what FATHER DOES NOT CORRECT AND DISCIPLINE AND TRY TO LEAD HIS CHILD IN THE RIGHT WAY SO THEY CAN HAVE HIS BLESSINGS AND NOT HIS CURSES?????

I CANNOT IMAGINE ANYBODY NOT wanting HIS BLESSINGS when HE HAS THEM TO GIVE. yet we are men and woman and we do not always see HIS BLESSINGS when they are being OFFERED AND GOD HAS layed them at our door. I HAVE been BLESSED IN MY LIFE.. because I did JUST LET GOD FOR the MAJORITY OF MY LIFETIME . and this is the only way to live and have HIS PEACE and BLESSINGS. we just get LOST AND TAKEN UP IN I WANT INSTEAD OF REASONING AND SHARING BLAMES ... BIG MISTAKES BIG MISTAKE >>> NO ONE CAN HAVE ALL CONTROL NOT BETWEEN TWO PEOPLE NO!!!!!! it has to be a REASONING, TOGETHER AND COME TO AGREE AT LEAST THAT CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF ALL AND BOTH.

I REALLY WONDER HOW MY LIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN AND WHERE I WOULD BE TODAY IF I HAD OF LEARNED THAT LESSON WHEN I WAS A CHILD> but NO CHILD CAN REASON ABOUT ANYTHING> BESIDES THINGS COULD BE ALOT WORSE if THINGS WERE NOT AS THEY WERE IN THE BEGINNING OF MY LIFE I COULD HAVE DIED BEFORE MY FIRST BREATH WAS TAKEN IN THIS WORLD> VERY EASILY IF THERE HAD NOT BEEN A KNOWING AND WISE MIND AND HAND TO DO WHAT HAD TO BE DONE TO GET ME INTO THIS WORLD>> THAT GOD HAS SAVED AND SAVED ME>>>> AND HE HAS done that more then once in my lifetime.. AND ALONG THE WAY I HAVE LEARNED much FROM THE WORD THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN. BY MEN YES but never would have been without the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD TO GUIDE THEM IN IT TO REVEAL THE TRUTH OF WHO AND WHAT AND WHY WE AS HIS ARE>> YES GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF OUR BEGINNING AND HE IS THE AUTHOR OF OUR SEASONS OF LIFE AND HE IS ALSO THE AUTHOR OF OUR ENDING.. and NONE KNOW NOT even the ANGELS in heaven ....IS there a GOD OH YES .. and HE IS LORD OF ALL.. and HE IS WITHIN ALL IF HE CAN BE LET IN .. BUT HEARTS CAN be MIGHTY TOUGH... A HEART OF MANKIND MUST be able to be TOUCHED MOLDED AND SHAPED with the TENDER MERICIES, MAJESTY OF HIS GRACE, AND HIS ALL CONSUMING LOVE FOR HIS OWN CHILD .. THERE IS NO GREATER LOVE. then THIS.. THE LOVE OF A FATHER THAT HAS CREATED US FASHIONED US ORDAINED US AND GIVEN US OUR LIFE FROM THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH.. and so HE HAS.. TO KNOW THIS and UNDERSTAND THIS REALITY AND TRUTH. means we CAN HAVE AT LEAST AN INNER PEACE> THAT CANNOT be EXPLAINED BUT EXPIERENCED BY THOSE whom HAVE FOUND IT.. DOES THIS mean that we will not have PROBLEMS come against us in this world and this life??? no.. BUT AT LEAST KNOWING THAT IT IS OUR LORD GOD ALMIGHTY THAT IS IN CONTROL it is MUCH EASIER TO LIVE IN THIS WORLD .. I HAD LEARNED THAT MANY TEARS AGO I sure lost that this past u year BUT BELIEVE THIS IT always takes two ... and it DID TAKE TWO one to say SOMETHING and another me to say something. and I STILL BELIEVE when it comes to HONESTY and BOLDNESS and TRUTH . I GUESS some just cannot handle it.. THAT I AM NOT GOING TO TAKE the BLAME for that. FOR THAT IS ME.. I JUST WONDER IF ONE THAT IS TRUTHFUL .. HOW CAN HE THEN NOT APPRECIATE TRUTH FROM ANOTHER??? because NO TRUST.. well that can also work both ways .. when DOUBT MOVES IN.. and I HAVE PLENTY OF REASON TO DOUBT about this now!!!! because I get NO ANSWERS . I GOT QUESTIONS AND ANSWERED them BUT no answeres back FOR me . SO!!!! I GUESS I shall DECERN FROM THIS THAT the answers are not IMPORTANT to give. TO SAVE WHAT I BELIEVE GOD STATRED. and neither is that my problem BUT THEIRS.. FOR I WENT TO GOD FIRST... apparently HE DID NOT.. YET this one KNOWS what is WRITTEN.. VERY WELL.. OH WELL NOT the first time I have MISJUDGED ANYONE. Sorry to get OFF ON a wrong track here.. that is not anything new either is it?? MAN I hate to get into this stuffjust keeps getting in the way. CAN"T KECK love out though that is the problem when HONESTY IS IN HONESTY does not get out.. FORGETTING IS NOT all that easiely done. IF ever. it fades with time but FORGET no. and that is GOOD AND BAD. MAYBE GOD FORGETS ALL OUR SINS BUT WE MUST DEAL WITH THEM ... SOONER OR LATER> .. NOW I KNOW why MY MOTHER ALWAYS gave me DIARIES.. SHE KNEW SOMTHING I DID NOT.. SHE REALLY SHOULD HAVE told me that writing down thoughts and expierences make OUR minds and LIVES easier to cope with .. BECAUSE it gives us OUR HEARTS DIRECTING .. BECAUSE AFTER ALL IT IS WITHIN OUR HEARTS THAT GOD HIMSELF DWELLS.. SHE KNEW THIS.. I believe there is someone else that either knows this OR IS wanting to knowI know this..

WELL ... YA I KNOW AND HAVE KNWN FOR MANY YEARS.. MY HONESTY GOT IN THE WAY AGAIN....and MY BEING BOLD ENOUGH TO BE HONEST.. and BE ME.. what is NEW >> ABOUT LOVE MAKING US CRAZY and GET OFF BALANCE. NOTHING> NOTHING AT ALL . I SURE HAVE FOUGHT FOR IT.. BUT I AM NOT FIGHTING ANYMORE . THE FIGHT IS ALL GONE > I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO THE WORD WARS CAN BE FOUGHT BY US but the BATTLE is after all the LORDS > YA RIGHT>>> BUT GOD ABOVE CHRIST JESUS HAS ALL AUTHORITY OVER THE STRATEGY.. and none can USURP THAT .. FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.. IF there is no agreement in this then there is no REASONING to be done or accomplished.. BECAUSE GOD WAS IS AND ALWAYS will be THE WORD and IT IS HIS KINGDOM AND IT IS HIS KINGDOM THAT WE ALL SHOULD SEEK AND WANT.. I SOUGHT IT.. and I BELIEVE I HAVE FOUND IT.. IT is GOOD VERY GOOD TO BE ON THE INSIDE LOOKING OUT INSTEAD OF BEING ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN AND SEEKING IT STILL. MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE NEVER STEPPED OUT IN TO THAT WORLD yet if I had not have . THEN I WOULD NOT be where I am today.. BACK IN SIDE.. where peace is.. I KNOW mel THIS is all JUST BLABBERING AND NOTHING but hey . I REALLY don't care. I FLOW IN HERE as the INNER SPIRIT leads and if none can believe that to bad ... SHUT UP SUZANNE.

have a nice day Mel..


-Mel-[/quote]

[melikio]

WELL ... YA I KNOW AND HAVE KNWN FOR MANY YEARS.. MY HONESTY GOT IN THE WAY AGAIN....and MY BEING BOLD ENOUGH TO BE HONEST.. and BE ME.. what is NEW >> ABOUT LOVE MAKING US CRAZY and GET OFF BALANCE. NOTHING> NOTHING AT ALL . I SURE HAVE FOUGHT FOR IT.. BUT I AM NOT FIGHTING ANYMORE . THE FIGHT IS ALL GONE > I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO THE WORD WARS CAN BE FOUGHT BY US but the BATTLE is after all the LORDS > YA RIGHT>>> BUT GOD ABOVE CHRIST JESUS HAS ALL AUTHORITY OVER THE STRATEGY.. and none can USURP THAT .. FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.. IF there is no agreement in this then there is no REASONING to be done or accomplished.. BECAUSE GOD WAS IS AND ALWAYS will be THE WORD and IT IS HIS KINGDOM AND IT IS HIS KINGDOM THAT WE ALL SHOULD SEEK AND WANT.. I SOUGHT IT.. and I BELIEVE I HAVE FOUND IT.. IT is GOOD VERY GOOD TO BE ON THE INSIDE LOOKING OUT INSTEAD OF BEING ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN AND SEEKING IT STILL. MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE NEVER STEPPED OUT IN TO THAT WORLD yet if I had not have . THEN I WOULD NOT be where I am today.. BACK IN SIDE.. where peace is.. I KNOW mel THIS is all JUST BLABBERING AND NOTHING but hey . I REALLY don't care. I FLOW IN HERE as the INNER SPIRIT leads and if none can believe that to bad ... SHUT UP SUZANNE.

Be all that as it may, there are still limits to how much PUSHING of another human being is appropriate; at some point, you end up being compulsory and demanding. Many "Christians" are, and they don't even realize it. THAT ISN'T LOVE; I know there are "exceptions" but not enough of them to support te PUSHY, in-your-face "religion" which some confuse with "love" and "God".

I think Jesus would tell a LOT of so-called "Christians" to SHUT UP indeed. One glance into their hearts, and they'd likely be disqualified and SILENCED... ON THE SPOT. It's amazing how many anti-gay, in-your-face evangelistic "Christians", don't really refer to the story/events leading up to those guys DROPPING THEIR STONES (what were they hiding or neglegent in attending?? (Hmm...?)

Yes, he DID say to the harlot, "Go and sin no more." But he also proved in that whole story, just how UNWORTHY many people are, yet they pursue other sinners as if that is THE only "Christian" sport (activity). Relentlessly condemning others, is also a sin... no matter how any regular human being tries to slice it. The reciprocity that comes with what we dish out, is as real as any "biblical" principle we might chalenge a person with.

Many "Christian" people are suffering from LOG-EYE, and they don't even see the damage they do to thyemselves, the hearts of others and Christianity (in the broad sense). It hardly does any good to point it out, because people who are MISGUIDED hypocrites, are typicaly taught to BLOW OFF anyone and anything they don't agree with.

That "blowing-off" would be fine, if they didn't then come from behind and run you through with a sword (some in the dark). Instead of lighting a "candle", they curse the darkness. So, WHAT would be better?

Jesus didn't say to RIDE to backs of sinners; He said to leave people alone, who would not listen to you. The problem is that some Christans are EGO TRIPPIN', and expect that THEY must be the ONE who reaches someone, or no one and nothing else will. Where does THAT kind of arrogance come from?

There are deeply profound reasons, why just "every Christian" may not be fully-equipped to CURE or CHANGE a homosexual person. Yet, instead of leaving some things for God's providence to attend, ignorant, arrogant jerks armed with some "biblical" knowledge, ASSUME that they are the final "voice" to a given person's heart or mind.

Now, THAT is the high-horse that many "Christians" get knowcked off of, and direct their ANGER at those they have abused and mistreated (with religion), rather than realizing, understanding and accepting that THEY THEMSELVES have most certainly (or possibly) contributed to the very problem they sought to address. Not every GOOD INTENTION, is a GOOD DEED well-done. Many WANT to do brain sugery, and they may even know something (perhaps a great deal) about it... but that doesn't necessarily authorize or equip them to perform various procedures.

Everyone is not your own CHILD, and an APPEAL is NOT a DEMAND. "Christians" (and other religious people) often step too far into or onto other's lives, when they become more visceral (worldly) than spiritual about their "religion". "Christians" are NOT in charge of the world folks! (That needs to be accepted; or people will drive THEMSELVES literaly NUTZ.) The guys chasing the whore, learned that in the most poignant manner that any "Christian" could likely imagine.

The REAL and actual "solution" is LOVE (see 1Cor13). Reaching people for Jesus is NOT a sport, and no one need assume they are somehow a referee, officiating some cosmic game. If there is a referee, that would be God or Jesus.

-Mel-

[Suzanne]

WELL ... YA I KNOW AND HAVE KNWN FOR MANY YEARS.. MY HONESTY GOT IN THE WAY AGAIN....and MY BEING BOLD ENOUGH TO BE HONEST.. and BE ME.. what is NEW >> ABOUT LOVE MAKING US CRAZY and GET OFF BALANCE. NOTHING> NOTHING AT ALL . I SURE HAVE FOUGHT FOR IT.. BUT I AM NOT FIGHTING ANYMORE . THE FIGHT IS ALL GONE > I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED TO THE WORD WARS CAN BE FOUGHT BY US but the BATTLE is after all the LORDS > YA RIGHT>>> BUT GOD ABOVE CHRIST JESUS HAS ALL AUTHORITY OVER THE STRATEGY.. and none can USURP THAT .. FATHER, SON, AND HOLY SPIRIT.. IF there is no agreement in this then there is no REASONING to be done or accomplished.. BECAUSE GOD WAS IS AND ALWAYS will be THE WORD and IT IS HIS KINGDOM AND IT IS HIS KINGDOM THAT WE ALL SHOULD SEEK AND WANT.. I SOUGHT IT.. and I BELIEVE I HAVE FOUND IT.. IT is GOOD VERY GOOD TO BE ON THE INSIDE LOOKING OUT INSTEAD OF BEING ON THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN AND SEEKING IT STILL. MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE NEVER STEPPED OUT IN TO THAT WORLD yet if I had not have . THEN I WOULD NOT be where I am today.. BACK IN SIDE.. where peace is.. I KNOW mel THIS is all JUST BLABBERING AND NOTHING but hey . I REALLY don't care. I FLOW IN HERE as the INNER SPIRIT leads and if none can believe that to bad ... SHUT UP SUZANNE.

Be all that as it may, there are still limits to how much PUSHING of another human being is appropriate; at some point, you end up being compulsory and demanding. Many "Christians" are, and they don't even realize it. THAT ISN'T LOVE; I know there are "exceptions" but not enough of them to support te PUSHY, in-your-face "religion" which some confuse with "love" and "God".

I think Jesus would tell a LOT of so-called "Christians" to SHUT UP indeed. One glance into their hearts, and they'd likely be disqualified and SILENCED... ON THE SPOT. It's amazing how many anti-gay, in-your-face evangelistic "Christians", don't really refer to the story/events leading up to those guys DROPPING THEIR STONES (what were they hiding or neglegent in attending?? (Hmm...?)

Yes, he DID say to the harlot, "Go and sin no more." But he also proved in that whole story, just how UNWORTHY many people are, yet they pursue other sinners as if that is THE only "Christian" sport (activity). Relentlessly condemning others, is also a sin... no matter how any regular human being tries to slice it. The reciprocity that comes with what we dish out, is as real as any "biblical" principle we might chalenge a person with.

Many "Christian" people are suffering from LOG-EYE, and they don't even see the damage they do to thyemselves, the hearts of others and Christianity (in the broad sense). It hardly does any good to point it out, because people who are MISGUIDED hypocrites, are typicaly taught to BLOW OFF anyone and anything they don't agree with.

That "blowing-off" would be fine, if they didn't then come from behind and run you through with a sword (some in the dark). Instead of lighting a "candle", they curse the darkness. So, WHAT would be better?

Jesus didn't say to RIDE to backs of sinners; He said to leave people alone, who would not listen to you. The problem is that some Christans are EGO TRIPPIN', and expect that THEY must be the ONE who reaches someone, or no one and nothing else will. Where does THAT kind of arrogance come from?

There are deeply profound reasons, why just "every Christian" may not be fully-equipped to CURE or CHANGE a homosexual person. Yet, instead of leaving some things for God's providence to attend, ignorant, arrogant jerks armed with some "biblical" knowledge, ASSUME that they are the final "voice" to a given person's heart or mind.

Now, THAT is the high-horse that many "Christians" get knowcked off of, and direct their ANGER at those they have abused and mistreated (with religion), rather than realizing, understanding and accepting that THEY THEMSELVES have most certainly (or possibly) contributed to the very problem they sought to address. Not every GOOD INTENTION, is a GOOD DEED well-done. Many WANT to do brain sugery, and they may even know something (perhaps a great deal) about it... but that doesn't necessarily authorize or equip them to perform various procedures.

Everyone is not your own CHILD, and an APPEAL is NOT a DEMAND. "Christians" (and other religious people) often step too far into or onto other's lives, when they become more visceral (worldly) than spiritual about their "religion". "Christians" are NOT in charge of the world folks! (That needs to be accepted; or people will drive THEMSELVES literaly NUTZ.) The guys chasing the whore, learned that in the most poignant manner that any "Christian" could likely imagine.

The REAL and actual "solution" is LOVE (see 1Cor13). Reaching people for Jesus is NOT a sport, and no one need assume they are somehow a referee, officiating some cosmic game. If there is a referee, that would be God or Jesus.

-Mel-

OK Mel.. Can I please say that I as I have understood you and again sounds so very much like that one I know. and as I am understandig what you have written here I cannot say I disagree.. with what I do get. BECAUSE this is what I have also believed. and yes I had lost track of what was important to me and others ok?? and because of that which is because as I said LOVE CAN REALLY MAKE US CRAZY. yet the LOVE I HAVE and am TALKING ABOUT IS NOT just what most men and woman think of as MALE FEMALE LOVEY DOVEY MUSHY GUSHY LOVE. if you get my drift. the LOVE I have for the man I know is a IN YIOUR LUFE forever love sharing careing and companionship easy living quiet endureing agreeable In most things type of love. UNDERSTANDING THT DIFFERENCES ARISE yet most if not all can be reasoned out and agreed upon if LOVE FOR THE OTHERS NEEDS and wants are as yourown YET ALL MUST REMEMBER MARIAGES between two is a give and take NOT ALL ONESIDED. cannot be that way GOD never meant it tobe all onesided BUT MAN and woman HUSBAND and wife working together doing each their part. WOMAN HAVE LOST KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT teir part is as far as RESPONSIBILITY and it is not BEING WIPING POST, OR A RUG to be WALKED ON BUT A COMPANION THAT HE SHOULD LOVE AND PROTECT AND TAKE CARE OF TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY AND SHE ALSO LOVE ENOUGH TO LET HIM BE THE MAN OF THE FAMILY HE WAS MEANT TO BE> BUT YET NOT JUST BE BOOSSY BOSS BUT A LEADER AND GUIDE FOR ALL THAT THE FAMILY MAY CONSIT OF and that sure does not mean TWO OR THREE WIVES BUT ONE WIFE and any children either his hers or theirs. DEPENDING ON THE CIRCUMSTANCES.NOW S TO PUSHING MY BELIEFS ON TO ANOTHER NO that is never what I ever would want to do. BUT neither do I appreciate someone else pushing their beliefs down my throat either. FOR ALL THAT IT REALLY comes down to is this UNDENIABLE TRUTH FOR LL THAT believe in GOD , is GOD IS IN CONTROL LIKE IT OR NOT. YET IF WE DO NOT TALK DO NOT WALK DO NOT LOVE DO NOT GET ANGRY DO NOT HAVE COMPASSION AND DO NOT KNOW WHAT GOD HAS HAD WRITTEN AND SAID AND DONE FOR US ????? then we are and should be just as well DEAD TO NOT LIVE AT ALL.

GOD GAVE ME THIS LIFE. and THIS DAY I WILL never live again have another chance at this day but yet a hope for tomorrow. yet one without any hope for that tomorrow being better then today then what. BOREING!!!!!!!! BUT what make s anyones life worth while. FOR ME> A HUSBAND KYDS AND ALL THAT GOD HAS FOR ME TO HAVE AND ENJOY IN AS MUCH AS HE WILLS TO GIVE ME .. FOR MY GOD ONLY WANTS the very best of the best for me.. that means the BEST HUSBAND the BEST KYDS and whatever IS NEEDED TO MAKE MY LIFE WORTH LIVING WHILE I DO LIVE THIOS LIFE HE HAS GIVEN ME. now I have never known anything but family and husbands wives and family liofe PART OF THE PROBLEM IS I COME FROM A GENERATION where woman stayed home and took care of the family she did not go out and work for a living HER LIVING WAS HER KYDS AND HUSBAND!!! PERIOD!and without that YES I FEEL VERY ALONE AND LOST. because THE LOVE OF GOD IS JUST THAT> LOVE OF HIS FAMILY HE HAS CREATED IT TO BE> MOM DAD AND KYDS.
and each one doing their part. and REASONING AND WORKING TOGETHER TOM HAVE IT WORK IN LOVER AND LOVING HIMAS their GUIDENCE.through HIS WORD HE HAS LEFT FOR US TO LIVE BY which is by faith honesty and LOVE.I COULD be BLESSED with many GIFTS BUT the GREATEST GIFT FOR ANY WOMAN TO GIVE OR HAVE IS TO LOVE HER HUSBAND AND HE LOVE HER . there is no greater love then that that GOD HAS GIVEN US ... TO GIVE AND HAVE. FOR EACH OTHER OUR KYDS AND HIM. FIRST BEING LOVED. BY BOTH. NOW IF ONLY MORE WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS life would be moch better for almost everybody.

almost could say by the time we understand this truth we are to old to ud se the love HE has GIVEN US TO GIVE. takes a lifetime to GET IT THROUGH OUR THICK SKULLS AND TO BREAK THAT HARDENED HEART AND RENT THE VEIL through circumcisionof the heart made without hands...

I had a conversation with someone today and IT was very heartening and so very truth. that I had FORGOTTEN ALL ABOUT THE TRUE LOVE OF GOD. and the LOVE HE HAS FOR US. so because of this I AM DONE LIFE IS TO DAMN SHORT TO TRY TO SAVE PEOPLE THAT WILL WORK OUT THEIR SALVATION JUST AS I HAVE HAD TO DO. LIVING AND HAVING HAPPINESS PEACE AND JOY FOR THE LIFE I HAVE AND HE HAS FOR ME> and if that man I am willing to love NOT JUST FOR SEX BUT BECAUSE I CARE . HAVE COMPASSION AND REALLY LOVE HIM DOES NOT WANT THAT KIND OF HONEST LOVE AND CARE then ALL I CAN SAY IS to bad. BECAUSE I KNOW WHO IAM IN CHRIST IF HE DOES NOT THEN ok WE ALL HAVE TO MAKE CHOICES EVERY DAY AND TODAY IS WHAT WE HAVE> I HAVE HOPE FOR A TOMORROW IF HE DOES NOT WANT TO GO WITH ME INT THAT TOMORROW WITH A COMMITMENT THEN SO BE IT. and in this day FOR meIT is just as it has always been ONE MAN ONE WOMAN HUSBAND AND WIFE with a LICENSE OF MATRIMONY SO we can BEWITHIN THE SOCIAL LAWS .. THAT ARE OF THIS LAND>>> HE HAD SAID there is no marriages in heaven I DISAGREE> with this statement CONSIDERING THAT WE AND THIS PLANET ARE ALREADY IN GODS CREATED UNIVERSAL HEAVEN> and HE is king of kings and Lord of lords and god of gods. we should statr living as this is a truth that He has already said had written about and done for us.

FREEDOM does that mean that a MARRIAGE LETS ALL JUSTDO everything they want o do to or for and say to the other ???NO!!!!!!! if it is mean spirited and harmful and not careing and loving then NO IT IS NOT if agreement is made then NONE HAS ANY CAUSE FOR A COMPLAINT. reasoning together cannot reason without CONVERSATION AND UNDERSTANDING GIVEN TO THE QUESTION PROBLEM OR DISCUSSION TO BE NEEDING AN AGREEING OF HEARTS AND MINDS.understandingwe are different after all we are made that way for a reason.

IF WE WERE TE SAME how BORING AND NEEDLESS IT WOULD BE FOR US TO EVEN BE DIFFERENT BORING!!!!!!!! THE SPICE OF LIFE IS JUST THAT OUR DIFFERENCES THT CREATES CONVERSATION AND HAVING TO REASON TOGETHER AND COME TO UNDERSTANDING OF EACH OTHERS FEELINGS AND RESPECTFUL REGARD FOR EACH OTHERS IDEAS AND FEELINGS ABOUT THINGS AND THERE ARE A WHOLE GAMBENT OF THOSE TO WORK ON AND OUT BETWEEN THE TWO!!!!!!!!!! MOST MRRIAGES LACK such wisdom and knowledge. and it takes both.. which then produces love that comes from the lord God almighty LORD AND SAVIOR OF OUR LIFE ...

THERE can be found great peace in a house that has GOD AND HIS LOVE AMONG THEM AND IN THEM BOTH. MAKES FOR GREAT TESTIMONY TO OTHERS FOR HIS MANIFESTATION OF WHAT GOD AND HIS LOVE IS AND CAN DO FOR ANY AND ALL THAT WANT WHAT THOSE THAT HAVE IT HAVE. BOTTOM LINE AND THE ANSWR TO ALL SEEKING PEACE, JOY, HAPPINESS AND HEAVEN.. IT CAN BE DONE>>>> and has been BY THOSE THAT HAVE FOUND TRUTH OF GOD AND WHAT HE HAS SAID AND DONE ALREADY FOR US...... as MEN AND WOMAN,,,,, JUST AS HE HAS CREATED AND MADE US.....

[chachynga]

Think about it, and you are all just working in mans understanding to reason instead of getting Understanding from Gods word. Not Very Healthy!

[theleftone]

Think about it, and you are all just working in mans understanding to reason instead of getting Understanding from Gods word. Not Very Healthy!

You ignore the fact that human reason factors into "getting understanding from God's word." You read the Bible through human eyes. This means your prejudices will influence your understanding of the Bible.

[McCulloch]

Think about it, and you are all just working in mans understanding to reason instead of getting Understanding from Gods word. Not Very Healthy!

You ignore the fact that human reason factors into "getting understanding from God's word." You read the Bible through human eyes. This means your prejudices will influence your understanding of the Bible.

Did not Jesus promise to send his Holy Spirit to guide his followers in the correct path? With the Holy Spirit of God to guide them, how could real Christians ever be mistaken about God's word?

[melikio]

Did not Jesus promise to send his Holy Spirit to guide his followers in the correct path? With the Holy Spirit of God to guide them, how could real Christians ever be mistaken about God's word?

Until my "faith" in the typical "Christian" stuff was shaken and shattered by a series of life events, I didn't question certain things.

One problem is that most "religous" peple are taught to NOT question things about the foundations of their "particular" faith. So it goes for Mormons, Catholics, various fundamentalists...etc. Yet (by the grace of the Creator, or human instinct), some people DO manage to ask pertinent questions about what they believe, know or think they know. Honestly, that isn't a BAD thing, even if for some it is a painful thing.

The most important thing to note, is that such a journey doesn't necessarily end up causing everyone to be "faithless", many come out of it stronger than before; but the process has typically altered their "faith". I'm not shocked one iota, that some people can only believe in PART of what the Bible says, or that various "Christians" disagree on "foundational" issues. And what bothers me the most, is that Jesus Himself addressed that people would have varying degrees of faith and devotion.

Unfortunately, the weak ARE often preyed upon, rather than prayed over. That is, those who consider themselves STRONGER or more "worthy", have often ganged up against those who likely have little or no faith; or they might simply disagree with the "faith" of another (meat vs. vegetables...etc.).

McCulloch poses an important question above. I "believe" I have an answer, but it is almost impossible for that answer to be universally accepted. The most neutral yet reasonable answers however, originate from all the things which many (not all) people tend to view as powerless:

Faith, hope, grace, compassion, tolerance, empathy, sympathy and love. People aren't machines; they aren't programs running DATA in all the same ways. So, I question things that others many not, and they might question some things I may have great amounts of certitude about. We are not ALL THE SAME. Yet, so many "Christians" have trouble accepting something the obvious paradoxes, between what "religion" says, and what people DO as a result of the "religion" they've ingested and/or disgested.

I've never had a problem with the fact that reigion is a part of many people's lives, but I've always been tentative about the effect it has on certain people. For some, it just AMPLIFIES much of what was negative (hatred, fear, violence...etc.) in them, and for others it fixes/repairs a lot of things which they might not otherwise have worked out without it.

And while I believe in the concept of God "helping" people to make sense of things and to be holy, I don't agree that much good comes from people arguing or insisteing that THEIR "holy spirit" (or biblical interpretation of it) necessarily trumps someone elses. I think what likely should happen (if Jesus be the example), a heartfelt "appeal" to another is made, compassionately and earnestly; without compulsion or abject fear, but always "communicating" that there is true regard and concern for them.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Warning! Explicit content follows:

Quote:
SO SHUT UP SUZANNE!!!!!!!

Please don't shut up Suzanne I am enjoying your input.

You cannot help the way you are born and the Christian church needs to starts realising that.

Then the Church should recognize "homosexuals" as having a birth defect? Mentally or physically, or both?

The Old Testament is written based on the ideas of social acceptance during those periods.

Keeping the camp bacteria free would show a bit of knowledge of unseen truths. How did those Hebrews know?

I believe in god - but not in the bible, normal people like you or I wrote it. Some of the stories are true and others aren't.

"Normal" people would have edited out the embarrassing things about their heroes.

One thing is for sure. God has never, and will never talk to man. He will never give us rules. He will never tell us anything. -- God isn't what the bible says he is. Man tries to make it simple and is defiantly isn't.

Your opinion on the matter is noted. Discarded, but noticed.

God wouldn't tell man that Homosexuality is wrong -- why would he? Please think about that...!

Sperm spewed on the ground was reason enough to condemn a man. Ejaculating into a rectum or throat can't be seen as sensible. It would be seen as "wrong."

Whoever wrote about Lot and the city of Sodom has LOADS to answer for, because the story is not true... Like most things in the bible, made up!!

Welllllllll, that settles it then. Let's just forget about the hundreds of millions of people that disagree with our British enlightened one.

Now we can all get on with science. Let's start with anatomy. Or, physiology. Or say biology. Or let's try an experiment and see if a man can actually even "have" sex with a man.

Let's start of course "clinically" to observe "what" sexuality "is?"

Hmm, the conclusion "scientifically?"

Sperm for ovum. Ovum for sperm.

Homosexuality?

Ummm, that doesn't exist.

There is a myth about it, but we have already seen what lies men will write about. I mean aren't theories just "things" written by normal people like you and I?

Empiricism is fun!