Human Evolution

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Jose
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:08 pm
Location: Indiana

Human Evolution

Post #1

Post by Jose »

jcrawford and I have been having some interesting discussions in other threads, which have led to the notion that we really need a thread on human evolution. So, here it is.

The Rules
We want to work from data. Data that is discussed must be accessible in the scientific literature. Personally, I would prefer the peer-reviewed literature, because, as those of us in science know all too well, the peer reviewers are usually one's competitors. Thus, they are typically extremely critical of what we write.

Any other information that is brought to bear must also be accessible to everyone. Where requested, direct quotes from the sources will be important.

The questions for discussion

1. What is the current best understanding of human origins?

2. What "confounds" are there in the interpretation of data?

3. Given that there is always genetic diversity within populations, how easily can we assign hominid fossils to different groups?
Here, the term "form-species" is probably most useful, referring to similar fossils with similar forms, but in the absence of information on the capacity for interbreeding. In many cases, different form-species are different species (fossil trees vs fossil insects), but sometimes they are not (fossil leaves vs fossil roots of the same tree).

4. Does information based on fossil data mesh with information based on genetic data? The true history must be genetically feasible. The fossils must have been left by individuals who were produced by normal genetic methods. To be valid, any explanation of origins must incorporate both fossil and genetic data.

5. What are the parts of human history that are most at odds with (some) Christian views, and what suggestions can we offer for reaching a reconciliation?

I will begin by posting the following genetic data, which is pictorial representation of the differences and similarities in mitochondrial DNA sequence of a whole bunch of people. Relative difference/similarity is proportional to the lengths of the vertical lines. Horizontal lines merely separate the vertical lines so we can see them.
Image
How do we interpret these data?

[If appropriate, I will edit this post to ensure that the OP of this thread lists the important questions.
Panza llena, corazon contento

User avatar
Jose
Guru
Posts: 2011
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:08 pm
Location: Indiana

Post #211

Post by Jose »

jcrawford wrote:What about it? I didn't see anything in that link which disproves my contention that all ideas and theories about human evolution ever since Darwin have been racist in context and application, and that the Out of Africa Model and scenario of 5 Billion Asians and Caucasians being descended from one African woman which modern geneticists have advanced recently is not only theoretically racist but is also a racial joke as well.
No, I'm not surprised that you didn't see it. No one in their right mind would consider said contention to be realistic enough to discuss--which, I note, says something about those of us who have discussed it with you. :-k The article spoke of recent data from various lines of investigation that provide yet more data on the mechanisms of evolution. There'd be little point in discussing fringe ideas that not only ignore the data, but even deny the existence of much of it.

Since the Out of Africa Model does not state that one African woman gave rise to all existing humans, there would be no point in trying to defend such a scenario. The only reason (as we've said before) that there was ever a popularization of the data as "African Eve" is because there's this story that says someone named Eve actually did give rise to all existing humans. This seems implausible, especially given the extent of inbreeding, which is biblically forbidden, but in all creation scenarios that start with one pair, there is no way around incestuous beginnings. No, the Out of Africa Model merely states that the ancestral population was African. The genetic data enable inferences to go back only so far, and merely indicate the "common DNA sequence" of that population. There could have been thousands of 'em, but if they all had the same sequence, the data wouldn't be able to tell 'em apart.

Well, I must say I'm glad to see you're still on this racism kick. I admire someone who is tenacious. And tenacity, if nothing else, is required to maintain enhusiasm for such an idea in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Y'know, you've answered this question before, but I've forgotten the answer, so I'll ask again. Why do you think that a model of everyone descending from an African whose name we don't know is racist, while a model of everyone descending from a white person named Eve isn't?
Panza llena, corazon contento

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #212

Post by Cathar1950 »

Y'know, you've answered this question before, but I've forgotten the answer, so I'll ask again. Why do you think that a model of everyone descending from an African whose name we don't know is racist, while a model of everyone descending from a white person named Eve isn't?
Good summary Jose. I think you nail what has been the contention all along. We keep hearing over and over about neo darwinist racist theories and as of yet know one has been able to agree and find the idea irrational. Yet clearly John has been exibiting racist theories and ideas implicit in his unsubstanciated bazaar notions. The only racist ideas have been presented and held by John.

jcrawford
Guru
Posts: 1525
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 pm

Post #213

Post by jcrawford »

Jose wrote:Since the Out of Africa Model does not state that one African woman gave rise to all existing humans, there would be no point in trying to defend such a scenario.
I'm certainly glad that you have given the Africa Eve hypothesis a decent burial, Jose, with Rebecca Cann's approval.

http://www.answers.com/topic/mitochondrial-eve
No, the Out of Africa Model merely states that the ancestral population was African. The genetic data enable inferences to go back only so far, and merely indicate the "common DNA sequence" of that population. There could have been thousands of 'em, but if they all had the same sequence, the data wouldn't be able to tell 'em apart.
Ah, so now Asians and Caucasians have thousands of African grandmothers to choose from. At least we are being given some choice and not being told that any of their names was Eve.
Well, I must say I'm glad to see you're still on this racism kick. I admire someone who is tenacious. And tenacity, if nothing else, is required to maintain enhusiasm for such an idea in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
There is no evidence that all neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution out of Africa are not racist.
Why do you think that a model of everyone descending from an African whose name we don't know is racist, while a model of everyone descending from a white person named Eve isn't?
Since there is no reputable creationist model of everyone descending from a white person named Eve, only the neo-Darwinist model of Asian and Caucasian descent from anatomically modern African women may be regarded as racist.

jcrawford
Guru
Posts: 1525
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 pm

Post #214

Post by jcrawford »

Cathar1950 wrote:We keep hearing over and over about neo darwinist racist theories and as of yet know one has been able to agree and find the idea irrational. Yet clearly John has been exibiting racist theories and ideas implicit in his unsubstanciated bazaar notions. The only racist ideas have been presented and held by John.
My notions of the inherent racism in all neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution are neither 'bizarre' nor unsubstantiated. Besides being one of the main theses of Lubenow's 2004 edition of "Bones of Contention," many websites and books listed by Google under 'evolutionary racism' also document the historic racial applications resulting from neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution.

http://www.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/ ... Hitler.htm

Even Milford Wolpoff had to publish a defense against charges of racism in the Multiregional Continuity Model of human evolution by other neo-Darwinists!


User avatar
Grumpy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:58 am
Location: North Carolina

Post #215

Post by Grumpy »

The Racist John Crawford wrote
My notions of the inherent racism in all neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution are neither 'bizarre' nor unsubstantiated. Besides being one of the main theses of Lubenow's 2004 edition of "Bones of Contention," many websites and books listed by Google under 'evolutionary racism' also document the historic racial applications resulting from neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution.
Enough already with JC's racism. Many people have used the Christian religion to justify slavery, racist ideas and other antisocial creeds yet we don't try to associate these aberitions with all the Christian faiths. Why should those of us who know evolution represents the best explanation of the scientific evidence have to put up with this old man's slander? His unhealthy obcession with the supposed racial differences reminds me of an old KKK member I knew as a small child where every sentence coming out of his mouth was N--- this and N--- that, it's offensive and unjustified.

I can start quoting Adolf Hitler on how it is his Christian duty to rid the world of Jews and it would be just as valid as JC's filthy spew. I thought there were rules of etiquite on this forum against impugning other posters morals, etc. Where are the administrators when John spews his stupidity and racism???

Does anyone else here think we've had enough of this type of clownish behavior??? Does his behavior allow me to quote Hitler on the Christian duty to kill Jews??? Is the answer for his behavior a common descent into the sewers, or can John's racism be removed so others can have a civilized debate???

This old man has shown he knows nothing of science and his racism has gone on and on, he deserves no respect for his lunatic behavior and ideas. To have a debate is one thing but just to be abused at the posts of a racist spewing unsupported and idiotic speculations is quite another.

Grumpy :|

User avatar
Cathar1950
Site Supporter
Posts: 10503
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:12 pm
Location: Michigan(616)
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #216

Post by Cathar1950 »

Your absolutely right Grumpy. His constant stating "neo-Darwinist racism or "racist neo-darwinism" among other things and his absurd account of Neanderthals and African is offensive and uninformed. We have at least 3 threads where he just keeps saying the same thing despite and argument, reason or evidence presented to him. His only defence is what he believes the bible says and any one or science that does not conform is stupid.
I have heard some very funny stuff. In John defense it is like talking to a crazy great uncle.

steen
Scholar
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:23 pm
Location: Upper Midwest

Post #217

Post by steen »

Stick him on ignore. I did long ago, and it made the reading here much more sane.
Geology: fossils of different ages
Paleontology: fossil sequence & species change over time.
Taxonomy: biological relationships
Evolution: explanation that ties it all together.
Creationism: squeezing eyes shut, wailing "DOES NOT!"

jcrawford
Guru
Posts: 1525
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 pm

Post #218

Post by jcrawford »

steen wrote:Stick him on ignore. I did long ago, and it made the reading here much more sane.
Sure, sure. Ignore, ignore. Stick your head in the sand and pray that the documented evidence of racism in all neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution will go away all by itself even as Diamond, Stringer, Tattersall and Wolpoff defend themselves from charges of promoting neo-Darwinist racial theories.

http://www.soulcare.org/Creation/Evolution.html

User avatar
Grumpy
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2497
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:58 am
Location: North Carolina

Post #219

Post by Grumpy »

crawford

Your racism is offensive and your web reference is sick. The hatred you and they show for things you don't understand is no more sane than Hitler's Christian based loathing of Jews or Martin Luther's sick hatred of the Jews. You and your White Power buddies are a stain upon the face of America. And yet you dare to call yourselves Christians.

I won't be wasting any more time on you, don't bother replying, your now the first person on my ignore list, congratulations.

Grumpy 8)

jcrawford
Guru
Posts: 1525
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:49 pm

Post #220

Post by jcrawford »

Grumpy wrote:crawford

Your racism is offensive and your web reference is sick. The hatred you and they show for things you don't understand is no more sane than Hitler's Christian based loathing of Jews or Martin Luther's sick hatred of the Jews. You and your White Power buddies are a stain upon the face of America. And yet you dare to call yourselves Christians.
What racism, Grumpy? I don't have any "White Power buddies." You remind me of the teacher in the following cartoon.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0055/0055_01.asp

Do you really think Hitler's persecution of Jews was based on Christianity?
http://www.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/ ... Hitler.htm

Post Reply