Why do Theists dominate the banishment list?

[Zzyzx]

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Why do Theists dominate the banishment list?

Theists predominate in the list of people who are banned for repeated rule infractions. For example, of the last ten people banned, seven or eight are Theists. http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 860481d25f

Why is this?

[Volbrigade]

I'm on record as saying that just because Christianity is the highest, fullest, most complete form of truth available to men

You are welcome to say anything you want. That's called an "opinion".

Let me know when you can provide any compelling evidence for your opinion. Then we can have something to debate.

I have been demonstrating for many years that Christianity clearly does not contain truth. And the proof is in the Biblical stories themselves. There is no need to even bring any outside evidence into it. We don't even need scientific knowledge to know that the Bible is clearly false. It's "self-contradictory" within its own stories.

One man's "compelling evidence" -- I've provided pages and pages of it, imho -- is another man's opportunity to "cover your ears and hum."

While we can disagree as to whether or not the arguments and evidence I've been presenting qualify as "compelling":

One thing that is beyond dispute is your dodging the directed point I presented to you:

Volbrigade wrote:

...the Creator of matter, time, and space entered into His creation, manifested as a man, at a particular point in history, in a specific place, in the company of well-known, authenticated historical figures. Suffered at the hands of some of them, both Jews and Romans; and was seen to resurrect from the dead into some transformed, hyperdimensional, eternal mode of existence. So profound was the impact of these things, that His followers established a faith that is with us to this day -- they even have message boards devoted to attacking and defending it!

So -- if you can name another "one of (the) many diverse spiritual and mystical religious paradigms" that comes anywhere close to that --

that would certainly strengthen your point.

Name one that compares with those stated claims. Not a generalized "ALL religions..." blah blah blah

Why?

What would be the point to it?

I've already acknowledged that ALL RELIGIONS are unique. How does that make Christianity special? It doesn't.

So I don't see your point.

Name another religion that proclaims that the Moon Goddess created the world. If you can't then I guess that makes Wicca TRUE!

Do you see how ridiculous your logic is?

No, I don't. Any more than you can see how you're missing the point, apparently.

In fact, can you name another religion that has an illiterate prophet who rewrote "God's Word" via divine revelation and then flew off to heaven on a winged horse?

If not, then I guess that makes Islam SPECIAL and therefore TRUE.

You have absolutely nothing to offer but extremely flawed reasoning.

You sound a little upset. I'm sorry for that.

Your answer clearly indicates that "no, there is no other religion or faith system in which the Creator -- moon goddess or god, or giant turtle on which the earth is perched, or whatever -- enters His creation. At an established time, and specific place. Mentioned with historical figures, whose existence is undisputed:

'Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene, 2 while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.' (John 3:1,2)"

I have catalogued several other ways in which the claims of Christianity are categorically different than the claims of any other religion. Saying "they're all different" is a dodge, whether deliberate or not. All I ask you to do is show me ONE that has anything like the qualities I've identified in Christianity. Just one where the Creator enters His creation, and is counted in a census. Or just ONE where the deity does not require actions and works and deeds in order for its follower to be approved by it. Just ONE where the deity itself dies, in order that the follower may receive the free gift of life.

In your post #193, your point was that all religions were the same. When I countered with the distinctiveness, in every way, of Christianity, you responded that ALL religions are distinctive, different.

I know this is just a discussion, not debate, but would it be too much to ask for you to not "switch feet" in the middle of it?

[Divine Insight]

In your post #193, your point was that all religions were the same. When I countered with the distinctiveness, in every way, of Christianity, you responded that ALL religions are distinctive, different.

I know this is just a discussion, not debate, but would it be too much to ask for you to not "switch feet" in the middle of it?

What are you talking about "switch feet"?

And what are you talking about when you say distinctiveness in every way?

You aren't making any sense.

Christianity is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

So what?

Replace "Christianity" with any other religion and the same thing holds true:

Islam is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

Buddhism is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

Hinduism is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

Wicca is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

Greek Mythology is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

The religion of the ancient Incas is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

The religion of the ancient Mayans is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

So what's your point?

Christian is NO DIFFERENT from any other religion in that regard. Every religion is distinctive from all other religions in every way that it is distinctive from them.

Not only that, but there actually do exist ancient religions prior to Christianity of demigods who were born of mortal women and who were sent by their respective "Father Gods" for the purpose of saving mankind.

Christian theists don't even debate this point. Instead they claim that Satan knew that Christ was coming and therefore created these other earlier myths to distract from the "real one".

Some names offered for similar myths are:
Horus
Buddha
Krishna
Mithra
Osiris
And many others.

I would include Apollo, with the exception that Apollo was a full-fledged God, not a demigod like Jesus. In other words, Apollo was born of a Goddess who had been impregnated by a God, not by a mortal woman who had been impregnated by a God.

So Apollo would be an actual God, where Jesus was only a demigod.

Of course you can argue whether any of these are "identical" to the story of Jesus, but I think those are futile arguments. In fact, by making such arguments all you are attempting to do is single out Jesus as being somehow "Special". But the problem is that you can make the same argument for every single one of these other characters. Each one of them would then be "Special" in their own way.

This last point seems to be what you are missing.

What is the value in proclaiming that the story of Jesus is "perfectly unique" in every detail? Isn't that true of ALL RELIGIOUS MYTHS? Everyone of them has their own special quirks that makes them unique.

You seem to be avoiding that like the plague.

In what way do you think your argument supports Christianity as being "Special" over and above all other religions?

Every religion can make precisely that very same claim.

What you are doing is called "SPECIAL PLEADING". <--- Read up on it.

I just pointed this out a moment ago: Where are you going to find another religion like Islam?

Can you point to another religion where God guides the hand of an illiterate prophet to re-write the story of HIS WORD removing all previously introduced flaws and lies in the story thus rending it PERFECT, and having that prophet fly off to heaven on a winged horse?

If you can't then clearly Islam would be eligible for YOUR AWARD of being extremely SPECIAL and UNIQUE in every way from all other religions.

Thus by your argument of "Special Pleading" we should all become devout Muslims.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Let’s review, shall we? I detect a lack of focus here. That is a common occurrence in these discussions — a product, I think, of a desperate attempt to avoid conceding the truth of Christianity. If you generate enough rhetorical flak, it’s possible to spread the subject thin enough to satisfy that desire. That’s called “avoidance�.

I made a post which addressed the often stated complaint that the Biblical God (YHWH/Jesus/Holy Spirit) is both immoral, and incompetent. I pointed out that if He doesn’t exist, that does not change the fact that our existence — whatever its cause, and whatever sustains it (TotN proposes mindless, random, eternal “energy�) is inherently immoral and incompetent, on the same grounds. The only difference is: Christianity provides a reason why that is so; and the hope for rescue from the condition of living in an indifferent, pitiless universe full of black holes, birth defects, disease, war, exploitation, Donald Trump ( ) and death. Usually, really really painful death. Often at the hands of other men. And, not uncommonly, for their pleasure.

A pitiless, indifferent material universe offers no such reason, and no hope. And if it could talk, it might say — “that’s tough. That’s just the way it is (or, “that just the way the energy flows�)�.

Your response was that:

Christianity is merely one of many diverse spiritual and mystical religious paradigms.

In other words, “Christianity is no different than any other religion.�

Ahhh, said I, but look at how distinctive it is from all the others! And proceeded to list several of those distinctives — and could go on for pages; and, depending on your response here, WILL ( ), and invited you to provide just ONE other religion that is even close.

Not being able to do that, and perhaps sensing the utter defeat of your argument, you shifted to a generic “so what? ALL religions are distinct from each other.�

Which is only partially true. And represents an intransigent determination to miss the point, which is self-evident. That determination is either purposeful and deliberate, or it is an intuitive defect, like being unable to “see� that 2 + 2 = 4.

It’s like trying to explain the distinctiveness of Earth, relative to the other planets in the Solar System. And being told, “they’re ALL distinctive, each in their own way. Does Earth have a giant red spot, like Jupiter? Or rings, like Saturn?�

And then when you point out “yes… that’s true… but Earth has oceans of liquid water! And intelligent life! What other planet has those?�

The response is “to what point (do you ask)? I’ve already acknowledged all planets are different. What other planet has an axis nearly parallel to the ecliptic, like Uranus? Your reasoning is flawed.�

But the point is that Earth is categorically, radically different from any other religion. This is so obvious, that when the distinctive factors are not immediately grasped, it is difficult to explain them further. How do you explain that “2 + 2 = 4�, to someone who refuses to “see� it?

Such is the Christian’s cross to bear. Still, we shoulder on…

Some names offered for similar myths are:
Horus
Buddha
Krishna
Mithra
Osiris
And many others.

I would include Apollo, with the exception that Apollo was a full-fledged God, not a demigod like Jesus. In other words, Apollo was born of a Goddess who had been impregnated by a God, not by a mortal woman who had been impregnated by a God.

Kindly tell me in which of those myths, the deity entered the creation in the person of a human being. And please tell me in which one we know in which town that human being was born. And (at least) the approximate year. And the names of the deity’s human pals, and under which Empire and governor it was subject. Which one of them died at the hands of authentic historical figures, and was testified to as being seen alive again, in a supernatural state? And please point to the prophecies, in those other myths, that these events fulfilled — prophesies recorded in manuscripts written over a 1,700 year period, and entrusted to the custody of a people group still in existence to this day, and re-instituted as a nation, that is currently at the center of world events that involve its superpowers? And while you’re at it, please tell me which of the myths cited is still believed to this day: not by impoverished, superstitious people, who ignorantly cling to (e.g.) thousands, if not millions, of polytheistic “household gods� —

but by PhD scientists and professors (list happily provided, upon request); brilliant writers (Chesterton, Lewis, Percy, O’Connor, Zacharias, et. al); and the giants at the foundation of modern science (Newton, Kepler, Pascal, Bacon — the list is extensive).

And if you’re unable to do that, and unable to acknowledge the categorical, radical differences between Christianity and every other “diverse spiritual and mystical religious paradigm"; and still wish to maintain that Christianity is essentially ‘just another one’:

then I’m afraid have no choice other than to leave you in your error.

[Neatras]

It seems to me that DI is attempting to approach this from an A, therefore B argument.

"All [made-up] religions make up their own story, and one in particular talking about a Creator god sending making a demihuman savior isn't evidence that it actually happened, only that the story claims it did."

On the other hand, from how Volbrigade has argued it, the logic flows in the opposite direction. It's almost as if he's presupposing that a Creator has made a demihuman savior, and is just trying to argue that Christianity is the only religion that accurately describes the event.

What he hasn't done is verify that the tale of a Creator god sending down a demihuman savior is anything more than fanciful imagination.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to Divine Insight]

Let’s review, shall we? I detect a lack of focus here. That is a common occurrence in these discussions — a product, I think, of a desperate attempt to avoid conceding the truth of Christianity. If you generate enough rhetorical flak, it’s possible to spread the subject thin enough to satisfy that desire. That’s called “avoidance�.

I haven't avoided this at all. To the contrary I have already pointed out several times why your claim for why this supposedly makes Christianity true is clearly false.

I made a post which addressed the often stated complaint that the Biblical God (YHWH/Jesus/Holy Spirit) is both immoral, and incompetent. I pointed out that if He doesn’t exist, that does not change the fact that our existence — whatever its cause, and whatever sustains it (TotN proposes mindless, random, eternal “energy�) is inherently immoral and incompetent, on the same grounds. The only difference is: Christianity provides a reason why that is so; and the hope for rescue from the condition of living in an indifferent, pitiless universe full of black holes, birth defects, disease, war, exploitation, Donald Trump ( ) and death. Usually, really really painful death. Often at the hands of other men. And, not uncommonly, for their pleasure.

This is dead wrong. Christianity is in no way unique in providing reasons for why immorality and incompetence exists. Nor is it unique in offering hope for rescue from this condition. That's where you are wrong.

At the very least you need to acknowledge that Islam certainly makes precisely the same types of claim. So Christianity most certainly doesn't have a leg-up on Islam.

In fact, all religions address these very same issues. Buddhism offers reasons why immorality and incompetence exists too. It also offers hope of a way out (i.e. Enlightenment).

Wicca offers the same thing. You are given free will, and told "Do as you will but harm none." There's your hope for a way out, just don't harm anyone.

In theology this is call "The Problem of Evil". <--- See link

From Wiki:

The problem of evil refers to the question of how to reconcile the existence of evil with an omnibenevolent, omniscient and omnipotent God (see theism)

Every religious theology that claims to have an omnibenevolent God deals with this problem Volbrigrade. This is in no way unique to Christianity.

There are religions that are exempt from this problem however. For example, Greek mythology did not need to deal with this problem because no one ever claimed that Zeus was omnibenevolent.

But yes, every religion that claim their God is omnibenevolent deals with this problem. So Christianity is in no way unique in this. You are wrong to think that it is. If someone taught you that, then they were wrong.

A pitiless, indifferent material universe offers no such reason, and no hope. And if it could talk, it might say — “that’s tough. That’s just the way it is (or, “that just the way the energy flows�)�.

You are only partially correct here. To begin with "The Problem of Evil" doesn't need to be explained here because there is no claim that any omnibenevolent God exists. So a random material universe is indeed saying, "tough luck". However, just because you don't like it doesn't mean that can't be reality.

Also, you are dead wrong to claim that the material universe doesn't offer hope for a way out. Actually it does!

The material universe has already shown us that it can evolve to higher and higher levels of intelligence. After all it created us and we are concerned with moral values, right? And there is absolutely no reason to think that we are the end product of evolution. Therefore this material universe does indeed give us "hope" that things can improve via the simple fact that our intelligence will continue to evolve and improve.

So as strange as it may seem, even a totally indifferent universe has given us hope to evolve for the better via the mere fact that we evolved to this point of being concerned about moral values already.

So you are wrong to claim that a material universe offers no hope for improvement.

So a purely material universe does precisely what you claim Christianity does. It explains why things aren't perfect and offers a way out to boot.

Moreover, why should any worldview offer a way out? Clearly this is something a lot of people would like to have, but that's no reason to make it mandatory from reality. We're lucky to be living in a world where we have already turned out as good as we are with obvious room to improve.

So there's plenty of room for hope in a purely secular materialistic world.

And if you’re unable to do that, and unable to acknowledge the categorical, radical differences between Christianity and every other “diverse spiritual and mystical religious paradigm"; and still wish to maintain that Christianity is essentially ‘just another one’:

then I’m afraid have no choice other than to leave you in your error.

But you are totally wrong in your accusation here. I have provided reasons why Christianity is no different from any other religion in this regard. They all have an explanation for The Problem of Evil. Christianity it NOT unique in this. Your claim that it is unique in this regard is what is false.

You are the one who is in error by claiming that Christianity is unique in this respect.

Every religion that claims to have an omnibenevolent God has their own explanation for The Problem of Evil.

If you think that Christianity is the only religion that deals with this theological problem then you are the one who is in gross error.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 202 by Divine Insight]

I'll try one more -- probably last -- time.

Volbrigade wrote:

I made a post which addressed the often stated complaint that the Biblical God (YHWH/Jesus/Holy Spirit) is both immoral, and incompetent. I pointed out that if He doesn’t exist, that does not change the fact that our existence — whatever its cause, and whatever sustains it (TotN proposes mindless, random, eternal “energy�) is inherently immoral and incompetent, on the same grounds. The only difference is: Christianity provides a reason why that is so; and the hope for rescue from the condition of living in an indifferent, pitiless universe full of black holes, birth defects, disease, war, exploitation, Donald Trump ( Cool ) and death. Usually, really really painful death. Often at the hands of other men. And, not uncommonly, for their pleasure.

A pitiless, indifferent material universe offers no such reason, and no hope. And if it could talk, it might say — “that’s tough. That’s just the way it is (or, “that just the way the energy flows�)�.

I'm not comparing Christianity with "other religions". I'm comparing Christianity with secular atheistic materialism.

You then made the claim that Christianity is not unique among religions. I responded by citing how it IS unique. Categorically, radically unique. For all the reasons I stated, more than once; and which have (not surprisingly) been totally ignored:

Quote:
Some names offered for similar myths are:
Horus
Buddha
Krishna
Mithra
Osiris
And many others.

I would include Apollo, with the exception that Apollo was a full-fledged God, not a demigod like Jesus. In other words, Apollo was born of a Goddess who had been impregnated by a God, not by a mortal woman who had been impregnated by a God.

Kindly tell me in which of those myths, the deity entered the creation in the person of a human being. And please tell me in which one we know in which town that human being was born. And (at least) the approximate year. And the names of the deity’s human pals, and under which Empire and governor it was subject. Which one of them died at the hands of authentic historical figures, and was testified to as being seen alive again, in a supernatural state? And please point to the prophecies, in those other myths, that these events fulfilled — prophesies recorded in manuscripts written over a 1,700 year period, and entrusted to the custody of a people group still in existence to this day, and re-instituted as a nation, that is currently at the center of world events that involve its superpowers? And while you’re at it, please tell me which of the myths cited is still believed to this day: not by impoverished, superstitious people, who ignorantly cling to (e.g.) thousands, if not millions, of polytheistic “household gods� —

but by PhD scientists and professors (list happily provided, upon request); brilliant writers (Chesterton, Lewis, Percy, O’Connor, Zacharias, et. al); and the giants at the foundation of modern science (Newton, Kepler, Pascal, Bacon — the list is extensive).

And if you’re unable to do that, and unable to acknowledge the categorical, radical differences between Christianity and every other “diverse spiritual and mystical religious paradigm"; and still wish to maintain that Christianity is essentially ‘just another one’:

then I’m afraid have no choice other than to leave you in your error.

and for many, many more. Which I think will be the subject of my next post. Leaving you to your error.

[Divine Insight]

I'm not comparing Christianity with "other religions". I'm comparing Christianity with secular atheistic materialism.

I've already addressed that. Are you not paying attention?

You then made the claim that Christianity is not unique among religions. I responded by citing how it IS unique. Categorically, radically unique. For all the reasons I stated, more than once; and which have (not surprisingly) been totally ignored:

I've already address that as well. Greek mythology is associated with hundreds of years of fables too. As are Buddhism and Hinduism. In fact, Wicca lays claim to countless Pagan tales.

So your claim that Christianity is unique is groundless.

Plus you keep ignoring the fact that it most certainly can't be said to be radically unique from Islam. It's no more radically unique from Islam than Islam is radically unique from it. In other words, neither of those two factions of Judaism can lay claim to any special status.

Your claim that Christianity holds some special place above all other religions is simply false. This is nothing more than your opinion and the opinion of other Christian apologists who try to make similar arguments.

You may have fallen for that apology, but I'm not falling for it. You haven't provided any reason for me to view Christianity as having any more validity than say Buddhism.

Plus you seem to be totally ignoring the fact that the Hebrew Biblical Canon contains countless self-contradictions that basically refute its very own stories. You have been ignoring that all along.

You can hardly point to fables that span over 1,700 years as being impressive when those very fables are riddled with self-contradictory claims and stories. The 1,700 years doesn't mean a thing if the fables can't stand true without self-contradictions.

1,700 years worth of self-contradictory fables is just 1,700 years of self-contradictory fables. That's hardly impressive.

[OnceConvinced]

I experienced another troubling event as an adult, involving a tarot card reading.

Both events involved physical phenomenon -- flickering lights, knocks on walls, and so forth.

I once dated a former white witch. She used to do the tarot card con and explained to me how they managed to hoodwink their clients. I've also seen documentaries on how they "weave their magic".

Never underestimate the desire for people to try to fool you into believing in the supernatural, especially when there is money to be made (eg mediums, tarot card readers, faith healers) Also never underestimate the desire for humans to play practical jokes and/or scare their friends/family.

And I think that possibility is on the following grounds:

I think it may be that the "God" you believed in, and prayed to, WAS a "figment of your imagination".

What makes you so sure your god isn't a figment of YOUR imagination?

I came to Jesus as a child (7 years old) with complete faith in him and I prayed to God and gave my life to Jesus. Now if all I got was an imaginary god... something in my mind that wasn't real, then that doesn't say much for the one true God. That he would ignore the genuine prayers of a child and allow him to be so deluded. That he would make absolutely no effort to put that child straight.

The bible says that if we seek him, we should find him. So there I was as a child, genuinely and eagerly seeking him. If I didn't find him and found only an imaginary god, then what does that say about your god? Not much at all. In fact it would show a god that could not possibly be relied upon, no matter how genuine you may be in wanting to serve and worship him. It would show a god who just didn't care enough for the child who was praying so whole-heartedly to him.

If this God was real, I can't believe that he would allow an innocent and faithful child to go for over 30 years believing he was worshipping God when he wasn't.

Do you think God would allow such a thing?

I believed I was praying to the real god. Why would this real God not make some effort to put me straight?

I think it MAY be that you were not focused on the Creator of time and space, who entered into His creation, manifested in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Why would God let me go for so long focussing on the wrong god without putting me straight?

My focus was on the Jesus of the bible. God's son who was sent by God to save us from our sins. That was the creator that I focussed my attention on.

I say "MAY". I obviously don't know enough about your situation to say with anything within lightyears of certainty.

Surely you would know your god though, right? You would know that he expected us to come as children and put our faith in him as children. I did that as a 7 year old and I continued to do that throughout my Christian life. If somehow that didn't work, then that shows a system that just doesn't work. It means that even you Vol can never be assured that you're worshipping a real god. You could be as deluded as you think I may have been.

Another possibility, which is related to the first: like those in the Apostolic Church ("Ephesus" in Revelation 2), you may have become "so busy doing the work of the King, that you forgot about the King"

Nope. Jesus was always my focus. He was the one I prayed every day to. The one I wanted to be like.

-- specifically, your love for Him. So busy going to Church events and revivals and picnics and evangelizing outreach and whatnot, and so tied up in the personalities and concerns and politics of your congregation, that your actual devotion to the "life" and "mind" of Christ may have been pushed aside.

Nope. I prayed every day to Jesus. In fact I was so used to praying I used to do it throughout the day, even as I thought about things, I would pray to Jesus about it.

I was never too busy to focus my attention on Jesus.

It could be that you were saved, and ARE saved, and are being permitted a period of testing.

Well then the ball is in God's court now then.

At any rate -- former Christian or not, your insistence that matter is all that exists merely places you in the camp of all other atheo-materialists, and the same arguments apply. Either what cause our space-time environment has a Mind, Will, and Purpose; or it is mindless and random.

Bear in mind that I completely believed in the supernatural before I lost my faith. It's just that too much of what I saw as supernatural was soon revealed to me as non-supernatural.

[Volbrigade]

[Replying to post 205 by OnceConvinced]

Volbrigade wrote:
I experienced another troubling event as an adult, involving a tarot card reading.

Both events involved physical phenomenon -- flickering lights, knocks on walls, and so forth.

I once dated a former white witch. She used to do the tarot card con and explained to me how they managed to hoodwink their clients. I've also seen documentaries on how they "weave their magic".

Never underestimate the desire for people to try to fool you into believing in the supernatural, especially when there is money to be made (eg mediums, tarot card readers, faith healers) Also never underestimate the desire for humans to play practical jokes and/or scare their friends/family.

Trust me -- I never underestimate that last factor.

None of the ones you cite apply to my experiences, however. The tarot card reading was conducted by an old friend of mine, who dabbled in the occult. One evening he dropped by my house, and during his visit he produced a deck of tarot cards. "What are those?" I asked (my wife knew). "Would you like me to show you?". Of course I did. Why not?

I was neither credulous nor skeptical. Just curious.

The reading was interesting. My friend demonstrated an impressive knowledge of what the symbols meant, and wove quote a narrative with them. It was during the reading that strange phenomenon occurred -- lights coming on and going off by themselves, in two rooms (the one we were in, and the next one over). It was, as you might construe, one of those "you had to be there" type things. The atmosphere in the house was... permeated, if you will. There was a sense of... "otherness". There was just the three of us, sitting at my dining room table. We just looked at each other for a moment; sort of a "really? Is this really happening?" I remember getting up to investigate the light in the other room, when it blinked on and off; and that's when the light in the dining room did the same thing.

Faulty wiring? Perhaps. But it had never happened before. Nor did it happen afterwards. And the timing sure was interesting...

I was delighted by the whole thing, to tell the truth.

Note, I am not presenting either of the two incidents mentioned as "this is proof of the supernatural". I'm just mentioning them anecdotally, circumstantially, and suggesting that these sorts of phenomenon occur all the time. And while some have natural explanations -- some don't.

Volbrigade wrote:

It could be that you were saved, and ARE saved, and are being permitted a period of testing.

Well then the ball is in God's court now then.

The "ball" is always in God's court.

Volbrigade wrote:
At any rate -- former Christian or not, your insistence that matter is all that exists merely places you in the camp of all other atheo-materialists, and the same arguments apply. Either what cause our space-time environment has a Mind, Will, and Purpose; or it is mindless and random.

Bear in mind that I completely believed in the supernatural before I lost my faith. It's just that too much of what I saw as supernatural was soon revealed to me as non-supernatural.

As mentioned, my journey went in the other direction.

I completely accepted the materialist/microbes-to-men evolutionist paradigm, before I lost my faith in it. It's just that our realty is too densely mysterious, too pregnant, too lyrical, for such a superficial, prosaic, academic, and somewhat dull explanation for it.

We exist in a finite dimensional reality that is a subset of an infinite, eternal one. And that "super" reality presses upon ours at every point. Occasionally, it breaks through, in overt and explicit ways. My own view is that it does so by invitation: prayer is one form of invitation. So is the occult. Since the Bible informs us that we are in a "spiritual war", it is prudent to be aware of what kind of invitation we are extending. And to who it is extended.

[Zzyzx]

.

It was during the reading that strange phenomenon occurred -- lights coming on and going off by themselves, in two rooms (the one we were in, and the next one over).

WOW -- how compelling -- lights on and off -- without obvious explanation.

Most of us have probably observed lights going on and off without obvious explanation. The last time that happened at my place someone had hit a utility pole beside the highway causing a brief power interruption. A few seconds later, voila, the lights came back on as though by magic (or supernaturalism).

Another time a power glitch happened just as I was about to make a post challenging Theist claims (before I installed an uninterruptible power supply) and it was gone. . . Was the timing a coincidence or did invisible 'spirits' or 'gods' interfere with my posting? If the latter, they were rather short-sighted because I always compose in a word processor document and copy to Forum text box -- so it was only a momentary inconvenience.

Note, I am not presenting either of the two incidents mentioned as "this is proof of the supernatural". I'm just mentioning them anecdotally, circumstantially, and suggesting that these sorts of phenomenon occur all the time. And while some have natural explanations -- some don't.

'Some don't' . . . Is that to say that if you or someone does not have a 'natural explanation' the event is supernatural?

If I had not later seen evidence of the power pole incident, that power glitch would have been 'unexplained' (at least to me -- and perhaps others in the area). Right? Should I (or we) conclude it was supernaturally caused since we did not have an 'explanation'?

Most (all?) supernatural tales / claims / testimonials seem to rely on stories about events that supposedly have no 'natural explanation'. That lack of 'explanation' could well be due to the ignorance of observers / reporters.

Until fairly recently earthquakes were mysterious, without 'natural explanation' (and often attributed to gods). However, as human knowledge increased, the causes of earthquakes became known -- and no longer required 'Goddidit explanations'. Thus, the 'God of the Gaps' is shrinking as knowledge increases -- though many prefer to cling to ancient superstitions and 'explanations'.