Jesus Camp Documentary

[Lionspoint]

People argue both ways for this movie. The religious right can see it as a positive tool to bring moderates to becoming "real" Christians. Atheists such as myself can find it somewhere between humorous and tragic. I can't help but laugh at certain points but I feel so bad for those kids throughout most of the movie.

So the questions to everyone out there are:

Does Jesus Camp show evangelical and charismatic Christianity in a positive light?

Does this documentary show phsychological abuse against children?

[hado]

People argue both ways for this movie. The religious right can see it as a positive tool to bring moderates to becoming "real" Christians. Atheists such as myself can find it somewhere between humorous and tragic. I can't help but laugh at certain points but I feel so bad for those kids throughout most of the movie.

So the questions to everyone out there are:

Does Jesus Camp show evangelical and charismatic Christianity in a positive light?

Does this documentary show phsychological abuse against children?

yes this documentary expose the truth about how evangelicals treat their children
for me as believe I believe I will send my Children to A people other than send them to Churchs like them..
I don`t think also it`s freedom of anyone to abuse children like that
talking to none adult children that they may go to hell only if they use dirty word in school and make them cry until they loose control ("holy ghost start to speak with them !") is the most reduicals issue in the world...

[Eph]

As a Christian, I had a negative view of the methods being used by the leaders in this movie also.

Many accuse my LDS faith of brainwashing people, but what we do is really nothing compared to the loud, in-your-face, emotional appeal that these evangelicals are using- and on little children no less. I thought the methods used were shameful and looked a lot like a Barack O'Bama political rally, only the participants weren't adults, they were kids!!!

I am one who thinks it is okay to influence and indoctrinate youth, but with an emphasis on love, respect, free agency and tolerance - something I did not see at that kids camp. They looked like little Nazi's.

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

I am one who thinks it is okay to influence and indoctrinate youth, but with an emphasis on love, respect, free agency and tolerance - something I did not see at that kids camp. They looked like little Nazi's.

The principal is the same though. Whether you are teaching them to love or to kill, you are still denying them the right to choose. In both cases, you are still exploiting the ignorance and helplessness of a child to get him under your thumb and believing what you believe. What we are taught as a child stays with us throughout our entire lives. It is almost impossible to get rid of any significant portion of it. In essence, you are choosing what your child will believe for him. This seems to be a violation of any free will we might have, whether what you are teaching the child is considered to be "good" or "bad".

[Cathar1950]

I am one who thinks it is okay to influence and indoctrinate youth, but with an emphasis on love, respect, free agency and tolerance - something I did not see at that kids camp. They looked like little Nazi's.

The principal is the same though. Whether you are teaching them to love or to kill, you are still denying them the right to choose. In both cases, you are still exploiting the ignorance and helplessness of a child to get him under your thumb and believing what you believe. What we are taught as a child stays with us throughout our entire lives. It is almost impossible to get rid of any significant portion of it. In essence, you are choosing what your child will believe for him. This seems to be a violation of any free will we might have, whether what you are teaching the child is considered to be "good" or "bad".

That is why I sometimes call myself a recovering Christian rather then a former Christian as It never goes away and you just outgrow it if you are lucky.
The Amish let their kids go see if they want to choose their life. For the Mennonites salvation is through discipleship.
I object to teaching kids they are sinful, fallen or depraved.
The are following the Bible program of indoctrination through mind games.

[Eph]

I am one who thinks it is okay to influence and indoctrinate youth, but with an emphasis on love, respect, free agency and tolerance - something I did not see at that kids camp. They looked like little Nazi's.

The principal is the same though. Whether you are teaching them to love or to kill, you are still denying them the right to choose. In both cases, you are still exploiting the ignorance and helplessness of a child to get him under your thumb and believing what you believe.

I guess you missed the free agency part which should be an integral part of any teaching on religion (and utterly lacking in those of the Jesus Camp faction). While teaching doctrine, LDS people explain that one will have to eventually discover for themselves privately, between themselves and their God, whether or not to believe what they have learned is true.

What we are taught as a child stays with us throughout our entire lives. It is almost impossible to get rid of any significant portion of it. In essence, you are choosing what your child will believe for him. This seems to be a violation of any free will we might have, whether what you are teaching the child is considered to be "good" or "bad".

(See comment above) If you have had teenagers, then you might know they generally don't let anybody tell them what to believe.

What is important though, especially to small children, is not necessarily the doctrine they learn, but a set of common values they can learn like honesty, morality, virtue and kindness - principals they might not learn by others in this world. I posted this before, but do you want to know what children are really learning by secular society and in what dose?

http://www.nielsenmedia.com/nc/portal/s ... 0a260aRCRD

If you want to see the depravity of what is being pushed onto kids these days, check out VH1 or MTV and see what type of programming they have these days.

I object to teaching kids they are sinful, fallen or depraved.

I agree. Our church believes in the complete innocence of children, not that they are fallen or depraved in any way. After all, Jesus Christ did teach that one must become as a little children to inheret the kingdom of heaven - this appears contrary to what those kids were learning in Jesus Camp.

[Nilloc James]

I am against the indoctrination of children end of story.

[Homicidal_Cherry53]

I guess you missed the free agency part which should be an integral part of any teaching on religion (and utterly lacking in those of the Jesus Camp faction). While teaching doctrine, LDS people explain that one will have to eventually discover for themselves privately, between themselves and their God, whether or not to believe what they have learned is true.

I didn't miss that part, as they can't decide because you, in essence, decide for them by teaching them those things when they are little. Little kids think their parents are God. They are never wrong so if you tell them that Joseph Smith found a lost book of the Old Testament (not trying to pick on you or LDS specifically, but you just mentioned LDS so it was the first thing that came to mind) they will believe you unquestioningly. It will take them YEARS to question the beliefs you gave to them, and by the time they actually do, church and Sunday school will have changed their perspective so much that they will invariably hold on to said beliefs.

Especially during childhood, our environment profoundly affects us so growing up around nothing but Mormonism or Christianity or Islam or Atheism (and this is what happens, as parents frequently shield their children from contact with any other religion) for that matter and constantly hearing that that religion is right makes you very likely to be (or remain) a part of that religion.

While the person has the choice, in the end, only a select few actually reject the religion they grew up with. Many never even learn about or consider other religions because they have been told that they already have the right answer for so many years.

If you have had teenagers, then you might know they generally don't let anybody tell them what to believe.

I am one, and I would agree with that, but indoctrination doesn't start at 13. What about a three year-old who takes every word out of their parents' mouths as absolute truth?

If you want to see the depravity of what is being pushed onto kids these days, check out VH1 or MTV and see what type of programming they have these days.

Ugh, don't get me started on either of those. I have never seen a channel with so many awful "reality" shows that still dares to say it is about music.

[Eph]

Homocidal_Cherry53 wrote:

I didn't miss that part, as they can't decide because you, in essence, decide for them by teaching them those things when they are little. Little kids think their parents are God. They are never wrong so if you tell them that Joseph Smith found a lost book of the Old Testament (not trying to pick on you or LDS specifically, but you just mentioned LDS so it was the first thing that came to mind) they will believe you unquestioningly. It will take them YEARS to question the beliefs you gave to them, and by the time they actually do, church and Sunday school will have changed their perspective so much that they will invariably hold on to said beliefs.

Especially during childhood, our environment profoundly affects us so growing up around nothing but Mormonism or Christianity or Islam or Atheism (and this is what happens, as parents frequently shield their children from contact with any other religion) for that matter and constantly hearing that that religion is right makes you very likely to be (or remain) a part of that religion.

While the person has the choice, in the end, only a select few actually reject the religion they grew up with. Many never even learn about or consider other religions because they have been told that they already have the right answer for so many years.

I agree with much of what you said and in no way take offense at it. However, people who indoctrinate with an emphasis on the most important virtues such as love, friendship and community are actually benefitting society, not detracting from it, even though some of it may not be factually true or beyond the scope of science. I have friends from most major religions and have found that despite doctrinal differences, there is a sense of family and belonging that can come from shared values within a religious context.
LDS people don’t always get it right when it comes to teaching young people, but we do try to teach based on principals of free agency. In fact, we believe free agency is the plan God has in mind for everyone – so, we should be sensitive to how we share our doctrine. I agree with your assertion that those who grow up in a religion will more than likely stay in that religion. However, LDS teachings differ, somewhat from other religions, in the belief in what we call a “testimony� – and this cannot be learned from a person, rather can only be obtained from God. You mentioned Joseph Smith, he taught regarding spiritual matters, “The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask it from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching.� Such is the emphasis to children and adults alike, one may approach God and have spiritual truth revealed to him.

I am one, and I would agree with that, but indoctrination doesn't start at 13. What about a three year-old who takes every word out of their parents' mouths as absolute truth?

Kids are told a lot of things at age 3 – the reality of Santa, Easter Bunny, Barney (oh, gosh) and fairies, etc. They may also be told of religious things, the difference here is that they should at some point be able to discern for themselves what to believe – once again, free agency again comes to mind and should be taught. Honesty also comes to mind, which is why I like you Homocidal_Cherry53. For a teenager, I’m glad you question things, it will make you a thoughtful adult.

[Nilloc James]

Kids are told a lot of things at age 3 – the reality of Santa, Easter Bunny, Barney (oh, gosh) and fairies, etc. They may also be told of religious things, the difference here is that they should at some point be able to discern for themselves what to believe – once again, free agency again comes to mind and should be taught. Honesty also comes to mind, which is why I like you Homocidal_Cherry53. For a teenager, I’m glad you question things, it will make you a thoughtful adult.

The difference is later soceity says or you discover on your own santa and the easter are not real. However soceity does not tell us that god is not real.

[Eph]

Kids are told a lot of things at age 3 – the reality of Santa, Easter Bunny, Barney (oh, gosh) and fairies, etc. They may also be told of religious things, the difference here is that they should at some point be able to discern for themselves what to believe – once again, free agency again comes to mind and should be taught. Honesty also comes to mind, which is why I like you Homocidal_Cherry53. For a teenager, I’m glad you question things, it will make you a thoughtful adult.

The difference is later soceity says or you discover on your own santa and the easter are not real. However soceity does not tell us that god is not real.

I disagree, the media is eager to let people know God is not real. Much of the time, religious people are typecast in movies or television as lunatics (some are, by the way).