Would you do this for your kids?

[Ayah5768]

For the sake of this thread, imagine that there is an eternal paradise (Heaven) and an eternal torment (Hell) waiting for us at the other end of this life. Heaven is an actual place where your every desire will happen and you will be unquestionably happy forever. Hell is an actual place where people burn alive forever with no escape, even for a single second.

If the above descriptions are not in line with your views, it has no bearing on this thread. This thread is based on the above versions of Heaven and Hell and the idea that they are real places. Please don't derail us with other possibilities of afterlife or the lack thereof.

Now, for the question...

You get to Heaven and whomever is manning the entryway tells you that your son or daughter will be going to Hell upon their death unless you trade places with them. You can only respond to this with one word--either "yes" or "no".

Will you trade eternal paradise for eternal torment and save your child?

After you've voted, please post and tell us if you said yes or no and why you chose that answer.

[OnceConvinced]

You guys aren't understanding what I'm saying: the scenario is an impossibility according to Christian theology. In other words, if someone asks you if you would damn yourself to save your child's soul, the Christian would reply, "I can't. My damnation cannot save my child."

It's moot.

We understand. The point is it doesn't matter whether it's a possibility or not. That's the thing about hypothetical questions. That's often why they are considered hypothetical questions.

The great thing about them is that you can see what people are really like by the answers they give. Those who voted "Yes" show they are more loving, selfless people than those who vote "no".

I don't want to be offensive but if you think Christianity espouses selfishness, you don't know anything about Christ.

I never claimed that Christianity teaches selfishness. I simply said it CAN be very selfish. And you'll also see that I suggested if someone is Christlike, then they would be willing to give up their lives for a loved one. THAT is a selfless act and according to Jesus, the greatest act of love that a man can have for another.

Why do people become Christians? Fear of Hell? Thoughts of rewards in Heaven? Those are selfish reasons, but I don't think there would be too many people who became Christians simply because they wanted to worship God. What made you want to become a Christian?

Even if a self-proclaimed Christian is, in their sin, selfish, that isn't Christian.

So have you ever met a Christian who is totally selfless? Does being selfish make you a false Christian? If so than by that reasoning any sin will make you a false Christian. In fact there would be no such thing as a true Christian because all Christians sin.

Not wanting to be offensive either, but I find it interesting that you would say that you yourself would not give up Heaven and go to Hell for your own child if given the opportunity. That seems to show to me a certain amount of selfishness. Does that mean you are not a true Christian?

[RyanP]

We understand. The point is it doesn't matter whether it's a possibility or not. That's the thing about hypothetical questions.

Yes, it does. If you answer the question, you are outside Christian theology; therefore, the question no longer applies to Christianity.

[RyanP]

What made you want to become a Christian?

Because I sought knowledge and wisdom and was tired of walking in the dark learning from my own missteps.

[RyanP]

Does being selfish make you a false Christian?

That's a loaded question. If you are selfish are you saved? Can you be selfish and have the Holy Spirit inside of you, even if it's just a weak Spirit that hasn't been nurtured and matured? I don't know but it isn't "Christian" in the sense that it is sin and not Christlike.

[RyanP]

Not wanting to be offensive either, but I find it interesting that you would say that you yourself would not give up Heaven and go to Hell for your own child if given the opportunity. That seems to show to me a certain amount of selfishness. Does that mean you are not a true Christian?

lol I don't know but I'll pray about it tonight. First of all, I retract my original response because the true response is there is none.

Look, a typical hypothetical is "If both your kids were drowning, and you could save only one, who would you save?" This is a highly, highly, highly improbable situation but it is possible. That's what a hypothetical question is. Not an impossibility.

But, just for the sake of argument, could you be a true Christian and so easily forsake God, Heaven, and spending eternity with God? Would God accept your child's salvation? Are you trading the Holy Spirit inside of you and giving it to your child? Does that make you God? Are you now the Judge when you decide who has the Holy Spirit? Is your child truly converted in this fashion?

Here's the killer: would your child want to spend eternity with God when he wanted nothing to do with Him for 20-80 years? Eternity is longer than 20-80 years. Like I said, it's a dumbass question.

[OnceConvinced]

We understand. The point is it doesn't matter whether it's a possibility or not. That's the thing about hypothetical questions.

Yes, it does. If you answer the question, you are outside Christian theology; therefore, the question no longer applies to Christianity.

It doesn't matter about theology or any thing like that. It's a "what if" scenario. Much like the very popular hypothetical question of what super power would you have if you could choose one.

Because I sought knowledge and wisdom and was tired of walking in the dark learning from my own missteps.

So why Christianity? Why not some other religion?

Does being selfish make you a false Christian?

That's a loaded question. If you are selfish are you saved? Can you be selfish and have the Holy Spirit inside of you, even if it's just a weak Spirit that hasn't been nurtured and matured? I don't know but it isn't "Christian" in the sense that it is sin and not Christlike.

Why would it be a loaded question? Perhaps I should reword it slightly. If you claim to be a Christian and you are selfish does that mean you are not a true Christian? You seem to be suggesting if someone is selfish then they cannot possibly be a true Christian.

If you are simply suggesting that being selfish is just not Christlike, then that's fine, but then neither is any other form of sin Christlike. But all Christians sin.

Look, a typical hypothetical is "If both your kids were drowning, and you could save only one, who would you save?" This is a highly, highly, highly improbable situation but it is possible. That's what a hypothetical question is. Not an impossibility.

It can also cover an imaginery situation. This definition which I have found on a couple of sites does not restrict it:

"A question, based on assumptions rather than facts, directed to an expert witness intended to elicit an opinion."

Anyway the idea of a question like this is to philosophise a little. Think outside the box.

But, just for the sake of argument, could you be a true Christian and so easily forsake God, Heaven, and spending eternity with God?

To save my child from an eternity of torture? Of course. Even as a Christian that one would be a no-brainer for me. I would be shocked if any parent voted no to that question... unless of course that kid was just so nasty and hateful and that parent had grown to hate their child.

Would God accept your child's salvation? Are you trading the Holy Spirit inside of you and giving it to your child? Does that make you God? Are you now the Judge when you decide who has the Holy Spirit? Is your child truly converted in this fashion?

Well this hypothetical question is assuming that God will allow it. God can do anything he likes, he is all powerful and can change the rules as he has on several ocassions.

Here's the killer: would your child want to spend eternity with God when he wanted nothing to do with Him for 20-80 years? Eternity is longer than 20-80 years. Like I said, it's a dumbass question.

You are assuming that the child did believe in God and that he willfully chose to rebel against God, wanting nothing to do with him. The more likely scenario is that he could see no evidence of God so was unable to believe. However faced with proof and also being faced with a sadistic and very real threat of eternal suffering in Hell, it would make a huge difference. Your questions assume too much about people and their reasons for not worshiping God.

Even my own situation is not a wilful rejection of Christ and not wanting anything to do with him. It was a very painful thing, a terrible realisation that I was living in a delusion. That the God of the bible is not what the bible and other believers claim it to be. It was inescapable conclusion. If God revealed himself to be now, I'd welcome him back with open arms.

[Evales]

"unquestionably happy forever"

No I would not, the guilt I would feel could only be eradicated in one of two ways as far as I see it. God would allow my child entrance to Heaven despite my response. Or my child would no longer exist in my mind.

Bare in mind I don't not have any children and I have a feeling I may change my answer if I ever did. Perhaps...

[JoeyKnothead]

You get to Heaven and whomever is manning the entryway tells you that your son or daughter will be going to Hell upon their death unless you trade places with them. You can only respond to this with one word--either "yes" or "no".

Will you trade eternal paradise for eternal torment and save your child?

Even if I were to make it to Heaven, I would still have to choose me going to Hell. As to my loved one's being in Heaven and knowing I was in Hell, then all there wishes will have come true. I kid, I would rather they had potential torment in Heaven, than certain suffering in Hell.

[RyanP]

Would God accept your child's salvation? Are you trading the Holy Spirit inside of you and giving it to your child? Does that make you God? Are you now the Judge when you decide who has the Holy Spirit? Is your child truly converted in this fashion?

Well this hypothetical question is assuming that God will allow it. God can do anything he likes, he is all powerful and can change the rules as he has on several ocassions.

That's my point! If this hypothetical assumes something God doesn't do, then you are no longer talking about the Christian God so you're no longer even talking about Christianity. The question defeats itself. Sure, He's omnipotent but He's also just so He can't just change the rules. If He did, He would be a liar and not holy and everything falls apart. God is immutable.

[RyanP]

Even my own situation is not a wilful rejection of Christ and not wanting anything to do with him. It was a very painful thing, a terrible realisation that I was living in a delusion. That the God of the bible is not what the bible and other believers claim it to be. It was inescapable conclusion. If God revealed himself to be now, I'd welcome him back with open arms.

"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." (2 Corinthians 4:4)