The US Constitution and the Bible

[McCulloch]

It has been asserted here and elsewhere that the Bible was a source for many of the principles and ideas enshrined in the US Constitution. I have read both and frankly I don't see the connection.

Question for debate: Was the Bible a source of inspiration, ideas or principles that guided the writers of the US Constitution? Please be as specific as possible.

For your reference online copies of both documents are available:

• The Bible
• The Constitution of the United States
  The Bill of Right
  The Constitution: Amendments 11-27

[OpenedUp]

I'm not sure if you realize that over half of what you said you had already posted earlier int his topic, but you did.

Also, I have already pointed out that those quotations of Jefferson are taken completely out of context.




Point of the matter is, civil law is not connected to biblical truths. Civil law is not based off of Biblical teachings. It existed before the establishment of Christianity or Judaism. It's based off reason and societal laws. It is much more likely that Biblical teachings took their ideals from the ideals of common law than the other way around.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
^That's what I'm sticking to

[Easyrider]

Also, I have already pointed out that those quotations of Jefferson are taken completely out of context.

Not so. As I pointed out in my previous post, Jefferson was not a strict deist, and he believed in a supernatural God who did and could involve himself in the affairs of men and nations. His own quotations attest to that.

Point of the matter is, civil law is not connected to biblical truths.

James Wilson, one of the original Supreme Court justices, says otherwise.

Civil law is not based off of Biblical teachings. It existed before the establishment of Christianity or Judaism. It's based off reason and societal laws. It is much more likely that Biblical teachings took their ideals from the ideals of common law than the other way around.

Who came first in the Bible, God and his economy of justice, or "other nations"? It's just as probable they obtained many of their principles of justice from the earliest descendants of Adam, Noah, etc.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

Two problems there. First, you left out the other part: "Nor deny the free exercise thereof. " Second, your quote is concerning CONGRESS. And so far they've allowed church services in government buildings, established paid chaplains, opened sessions with prayers to God, and done a hundred other similar things.

[r~]

opus49, OpenedUp, Easyrider, Chancellor:

I will agree that the U.S. Constitution is not based on Old Covenant Biblical Law.

However, I would respectfully ask you to please review Post 9.

Please reveal your arguments why:

All are created equal.
All are endowed with the inalienable right of liberty.
Governments are instituted to secure the right of liberty.
Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

Do not reflect the (Biblical) new covenant spirit of:

Love your neighbor as yourself.
Render to government that which is governments; to God that which is God.


To the 'Christians' that say that the Constitution is based on the Bible. I say: Yes, but not in the way you think.

ItS
Liberty and Justice for Allah
r~

[Beto]

opus49, OpenedUp, Easyrider, Chancellor:

I will agree that the U.S. Constitution is not based on Old Covenant Biblical Law.

However, I would respectfully ask you to please review Post 9.

Please reveal your arguments why:

All are created equal.
All are endowed with the inalienable right of liberty.
Governments are instituted to secure the right of liberty.
Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

Do not reflect the (Biblical) new covenant spirit of:

Love your neighbor as yourself.
Render to government that which is governments; to God that which is God.


To the 'Christians' that say that the Constitution is based on the Bible. I say: Yes, but not in the way you think.

ItS
Liberty and Justice for Allah
r~

I realize I'm not on that list, but I figured you wouldn't mind.

Are you sure it's not the Bible that reflects platonic values, common to many scriptures, like the Vedas?

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" just means that one's religion or lack thereof is fundamentally irrelevant to the state (when it doesn't conflict with other inalienable rights, I guess).

[Chancellor]

opus49, OpenedUp, Easyrider, Chancellor:

I will agree that the U.S. Constitution is not based on Old Covenant Biblical Law.

However, I would respectfully ask you to please review Post 9.

Please reveal your arguments why:

All are created equal.
All are endowed with the inalienable right of liberty.
Governments are instituted to secure the right of liberty.
Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion.

Do not reflect the (Biblical) new covenant spirit of:

Love your neighbor as yourself.
Render to government that which is governments; to God that which is God.

There's more to the Bible than just those two passages. There is nothing in the Bible that says governments are instituted to secure the right of liberty. In fact, here's why God instituted governments:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed." - Romans 13:1-7 (ESV) -

As for the equality thing, you do realize that God chose Israel to be His own special nation and, thus, He does not treat Israel like the other nations? Do you realize that the Church is likewise set apart as God's special possession? "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9 ESV).

Also, the Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:19, "I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."

You may think that bits and pieces of the Constitution (including its 27 amendments) might seem to have a basis in the Christian scriptures but you really must look at the document as a whole and at the form of government established by it.

[r~]

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" just means that one's religion or lack thereof is fundamentally irrelevant to the state (when it doesn't conflict with other inalienable rights, I guess).

All have the inalienable and retained right of peaceful and well-regulated of right of pursuit of happiness; no matter that the religious zealots say otherwise.

I am
ItS
r~

[r~]

In fact, here's why God instituted governments:
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities... Romans 13:1-7 (ESV)

I will admit that Old Covenant Laws are found in the New Testament. But that does not make them new covenant. The truth is that Christianity was usurped by 'Pharisees' to give authority to their civil government. Although he was confronted by the Spirit, Paul was never able to completely abandoned his Pharisee roots. Civil authorities recast 'Christianity' in their 'Pharisee' Laws of government.

Jesus himself said to "render to Caesar (government) that which is government's". No Old Covenant writings or interpretations (even by the New Testament writers) can justly deny the spirit of the new covenant In the Spirit of Christ that only God has authority to persecute sins and sinners.

As for the equality thing, you do realize that God chose Israel to be His own special nation and, thus, He does not treat Israel like the other nations? Do you realize that the Church is likewise set apart as God's special possession? "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9 ESV). Also, the Apostle Paul said in Romans 6:19, "I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."

No matter how many Old Covenant Passages you quote, they are still Old Covenant passages and you are still a teacher of the law.

You may think that bits and pieces of the Constitution (including its 27 amendments) might seem to have a basis in the Christian scriptures but you really must look at the document as a whole and at the form of government established by it.

???

The constitution was instituted to secure the new covenant inalienable and retained right of peace and well-regulated pursuit of happiness (liberty); no matter your Belief.

I am
ItS
r~

[JoeyKnothead]

It is fair enough to say that the bible influenced the writers of the Constitution, sure. Let me just combine that influence, and call it the golden rule. The golden rule is a great way to live, and govern, but this idea is a universal idea, regardless of who happened to pen it first.

What happens in this debate is xians will say that it would not have been there without the bible, but i disagree. It is fundamental to a free society, which is what the Founders where seeking, to place some sort of golden rule into place, regardless of its source.

Xians tend to forget some of the oppressions that were in place before this country was founded, like getting put in the stockade for working on Sunday, or for not going to church.

[r~]

What happens in this debate is xians will say...

Those you call xians are Christian in Name Only. In truth, they stand anti-Christian in the spirit of the true covenant the golden rule. Yet even still, their mark is easily revealed.

Jesus stood against punishment of sin as crime. Jesus stood for separation of church and state. We the People stand in that same spirit.

ItS
Peace
r~