2024:Accept Genesis as allegorical! Why not?

[Masterblaster]

Hello
This is the footstool of the Bible.
"God made man in his own image and likeness."
What does that even mean?
Let's get all this behind us going forward.
Opinions welcome.

"Allegorical means containing a moral or hidden meaning. Allegorical stories and plays use concrete ideas as symbols for deeper or layered meanings. Folk tales and fables are often allegorical."

[TRANSPONDER]

Jesus the 1st Century teacher and his message stayed within the reality that was Judaism. In my opinion.

Correct, but more precisely Judaism formed upon the abandonment of those teachings for political reasons as did Christianity itself later.

I don't see that at all. Sure, Judaism evolved. The Maccabean was and Daniel was (I propose) the start of the whole Pharisee movement and the idea of resurrection to eternal life (on earth) which I gather wasn't originally Jewish thought. I have never seen any indication that Judaism abandoned any of its' teachings. Though as I said above, I gather that Jewish authorities regard Genesis as allegorical. And are smart enough to realise that Exodus is likely to be at best fudged history

[Replying to Masterblaster in post #6]

So Jesus wasn‘t talking about a real man named Adam? Is that your position? Where did sin come from if there was no Adam and no rebellion? If there was no Adam and Eve God created establishing God‘s plan for marriage, I guess there is no real plan in your position, right? A lot of (eventually all) of the teachings of the Bible fall apart if Genesis is not discussing real people making real choices with real consequences it seems.

Exactly. Evolutionary biology apparently explains that Sin is just our nature - traits for survival of our species as a group or individuals. Empathy, pack placement, group rivalry for resources, individual gains. All natural and needing no God, Eden or Jesus to save us from it.

Yes, Genesis falls apart as Fact, doctrine and as guide for present living.

Marriage was about ownership. Even though smart women could dominate. But always and ever marriages could be dissolved. No matter what the Bible or Church had to say about it. That and the problems it may cause are a result of our nature, not of disobeying a command of a god.

[Masterblaster]

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "I was first going to say you were wrong, but I think you are likely right"

Did you mean "I was first going to say you were wrong, but I think you are likely right"

Or was it more a case of

"I was first going to say you were wrong, but I think you are likely right"

Anyway, thanks!

[Mae von H]

So Jesus wasn‘t talking about a real man named Adam? Is that your position? Where did sin come from if there was no Adam and no rebellion? If there was no Adam and Eve God created establishing God‘s plan for marriage, I guess there is no real plan in your position, right? A lot of (eventually all) of the teachings of the Bible fall apart if Genesis is not discussing real people making real choices with real consequences it seems.

Exactly. Evolutionary biology apparently explains that Sin is just our nature - traits for survival of our species as a group or individuals.

That makes no sense at all as sin is 100% against survival of the species. Murder, a sin, reduces survival. Hatred, a sin, reduces survival, Stealing, a sin, reduces survival of the victims. The list goes on and on. Moral virtue (righteousness), not sin enhances survival.

Empathy, pack placement, group rivalry for resources, individual gains. All natural and needing no God, Eden or Jesus to save us from it.

Then why don’t all people everywhere and in every decision naturally do this?

Yes, Genesis falls apart as Fact, doctrine and as guide for present living.

No, the opposite. Sin is detrimental to survival. Righteousness supports survival….but righteousness of a community is nevertheless not achievable outside of God’s help.

Marriage was about ownership.

No, there always were men who loved not owned their wives.

Even though smart women could dominate. But always and ever marriages could be dissolved. No matter what the Bible or Church had to say about it. That and the problems it may cause are a result of our nature, not of disobeying a command of a god.

That again makes no sense at all. It is a known and undeniable fact that children thrive best in a loving man and woman married family. It is undeniable that divorce is detrimental to offspring, the foundation of the survival of the species.

[1213]

If Genesis gets seen as allegorical, then how does the Blood magic of Jesus fit in that was performed to absolve mankind of the original sin commited by Adam and Eve

What blood magic are you talking about? Bible is not speaking of any blood magic.

[Mae von H]

Hello the Nice Centurion

Everyone has an opinion.This is mine.
Only christianity ran with the original Sin of Adam allegory. Judaism didn't.
That makes the Saviour of our sins, Christ to be also allegorically contrived.
Jesus the 1st Century teacher and his message stayed within the reality that was Judaism. In my opinion.
What do you think?

I know you weren’t addressing me, but my understanding is Augustine invented the “original sin” theology. It wasn’t known to Christianity before him.

It became popular for the same reason he invented it. Gives those who embrace an excuse for their own sin outside of their own wrong desires. Still appeals to people for the same reason. Their sin isn’t (really) their fault.

[TRANSPONDER]

If Genesis gets seen as allegorical, then how does the Blood magic of Jesus fit in that was performed to absolve mankind of the original sin commited by Adam and Eve

What blood magic are you talking about? Bible is not speaking of any blood magic.

It is even without using those words. Look, we know that God's miracles are what we could call'magic' because they do not occur in nature.If they did, they wouldn't be miracles, right?

So Jesus shedding blood on the cross (as Paul put it) is something like prayer or Faith or sacrifice that enables God to do a miracle - in that case making a loophole in Sin-death for the faithful.

Hello TRANSPONDER

You say - "I was first going to say you were wrong, but I think you are likely right"

Did you mean "I was first going to say you were wrong, but I think you are likely right"

Or was it more a case of

"I was first going to say you were wrong, but I think you are likely right"

Anyway, thanks!

None of the the above, I was saying that I at first was going to say you were wrong, but I then thought you were likely right.

[TRANSPONDER]

So Jesus wasn‘t talking about a real man named Adam? Is that your position? Where did sin come from if there was no Adam and no rebellion? If there was no Adam and Eve God created establishing God‘s plan for marriage, I guess there is no real plan in your position, right? A lot of (eventually all) of the teachings of the Bible fall apart if Genesis is not discussing real people making real choices with real consequences it seems.

Exactly. Evolutionary biology apparently explains that Sin is just our nature - traits for survival of our species as a group or individuals.

That makes no sense at all as sin is 100% against survival of the species. Murder, a sin, reduces survival. Hatred, a sin, reduces survival, Stealing, a sin, reduces survival of the victims. The list goes on and on. Moral virtue (righteousness), not sin enhances survival.

Empathy, pack placement, group rivalry for resources, individual gains. All natural and needing no God, Eden or Jesus to save us from it.

Then why don’t all people everywhere and in every decision naturally do this?

Yes, Genesis falls apart as Fact, doctrine and as guide for present living.

No, the opposite. Sin is detrimental to survival. Righteousness supports survival….but righteousness of a community is nevertheless not achievable outside of God’s help.

Marriage was about ownership.

No, there always were men who loved not owned their wives.

Even though smart women could dominate. But always and ever marriages could be dissolved. No matter what the Bible or Church had to say about it. That and the problems it may cause are a result of our nature, not of disobeying a command of a god.

That again makes no sense at all. It is a known and undeniable fact that children thrive best in a loving man and woman married family. It is undeniable that divorce is detrimental to offspring, the foundation of the survival of the species.

Isn't that the point I was making? The stuff we call 'sin' and think it is wrong because God said so is wrong in human evolutionary terms because it is not conducive to survival and well -being of the individual, group, tribe and species. In fact the fantasy of a 'Righteous community' has never been achieved within Christianity or without it. Either God doesn'thelp us to acieve this righteousness or doesn't exist at all.

I anticipate 'Because we don't follow God's Laws'. But this is the argument of any social system 'If everyone followed the rules, it would be perfect'. But people don't because we are mischievous and selfish monkeys and we ignore what society has designated fair play in favour of personal benefit. True religion can inspire us to be the best we can be which is why religion is also a survival instinct, but it can also serve the basest instincts, of sectarianism, holy wars and lying to and scamming the believers.

I agree that children survive best in a loving family. which is why we have moved beyond the old concepts of how much in shekels a woman is worth. The Bible is no longer a guide to good living and following those laws are less conducive to a fair society than humanist morals.

[1213]

It is even without using those words. Look, we know that God's miracles are what we could call'magic' because they do not occur in nature.If they did, they wouldn't be miracles, right?

Do I understand you correctly, you think miracle is the same as magic? Or do you have some other definition for the word magic?

I think magic means: The art or practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. By that definition God don't use magic.

[Mae von H]

So Jesus wasn‘t talking about a real man named Adam? Is that your position? Where did sin come from if there was no Adam and no rebellion? If there was no Adam and Eve God created establishing God‘s plan for marriage, I guess there is no real plan in your position, right? A lot of (eventually all) of the teachings of the Bible fall apart if Genesis is not discussing real people making real choices with real consequences it seems.

Exactly. Evolutionary biology apparently explains that Sin is just our nature - traits for survival of our species as a group or individuals.

That makes no sense at all as sin is 100% against survival of the species. Murder, a sin, reduces survival. Hatred, a sin, reduces survival, Stealing, a sin, reduces survival of the victims. The list goes on and on. Moral virtue (righteousness), not sin enhances survival.

Empathy, pack placement, group rivalry for resources, individual gains. All natural and needing no God, Eden or Jesus to save us from it.

Then why don’t all people everywhere and in every decision naturally do this?

Yes, Genesis falls apart as Fact, doctrine and as guide for present living.

No, the opposite. Sin is detrimental to survival. Righteousness supports survival….but righteousness of a community is nevertheless not achievable outside of God’s help.

Marriage was about ownership.

No, there always were men who loved not owned their wives.

Even though smart women could dominate. But always and ever marriages could be dissolved. No matter what the Bible or Church had to say about it. That and the problems it may cause are a result of our nature, not of disobeying a command of a god.

That again makes no sense at all. It is a known and undeniable fact that children thrive best in a loving man and woman married family. It is undeniable that divorce is detrimental to offspring, the foundation of the survival of the species.

Isn't that the point I was making? The stuff we call 'sin' and think it is wrong because God said so is wrong in human evolutionary terms because it is not conducive to survival and well -being of the individual, group, tribe and species.

But sin is a choice and evolutionary theory is supposedly a biological process where no choice whatsoever is possible. People didn’t choose to have two eyes. Evolution cannot explain why people do (frequently) that which works against the survival of the species.

In fact the fantasy of a 'Righteous community' has never been achieved within Christianity or without it.

Yea it has but only in Christianity.

Either God doesn'thelp us to acieve this righteousness or doesn't exist at all.

You are unaware of successes.

I anticipate 'Because we don't follow God's Laws'. But this is the argument of any social system 'If everyone followed the rules, it would be perfect'.

Untrue. Depends upon the rules.

But people don't because we are mischievous and selfish monkeys and we ignore what society has designated fair play in favour of personal benefit.

If we evolved how is this possible?

True religion can inspire us to be the best we can be which is why religion is also a survival instinct, but it can also serve the basest instincts, of sectarianism, holy wars and lying to and scamming the believers.

. That doesn’t fit christianity.

I agree that children survive best in a loving family. which is why we have moved beyond the old concepts of how much in shekels a woman is worth.

Where does this quote come from?

The Bible is no longer a guide to good living and following those laws are less conducive to a fair society than humanist morals.

Ah, contrar Pierre!! The Bible or teachings of Jesus in particular are thee best guide to a fair and good society. Even atheists have admitted this.

[TRANSPONDER]

So Jesus wasn‘t talking about a real man named Adam? Is that your position? Where did sin come from if there was no Adam and no rebellion? If there was no Adam and Eve God created establishing God‘s plan for marriage, I guess there is no real plan in your position, right? A lot of (eventually all) of the teachings of the Bible fall apart if Genesis is not discussing real people making real choices with real consequences it seems.

Exactly. Evolutionary biology apparently explains that Sin is just our nature - traits for survival of our species as a group or individuals.

That makes no sense at all as sin is 100% against survival of the species. Murder, a sin, reduces survival. Hatred, a sin, reduces survival, Stealing, a sin, reduces survival of the victims. The list goes on and on. Moral virtue (righteousness), not sin enhances survival.

Empathy, pack placement, group rivalry for resources, individual gains. All natural and needing no God, Eden or Jesus to save us from it.

Then why don’t all people everywhere and in every decision naturally do this?

Yes, Genesis falls apart as Fact, doctrine and as guide for present living.

No, the opposite. Sin is detrimental to survival. Righteousness supports survival….but righteousness of a community is nevertheless not achievable outside of God’s help.

Marriage was about ownership.

No, there always were men who loved not owned their wives.

Even though smart women could dominate. But always and ever marriages could be dissolved. No matter what the Bible or Church had to say about it. That and the problems it may cause are a result of our nature, not of disobeying a command of a god.

That again makes no sense at all. It is a known and undeniable fact that children thrive best in a loving man and woman married family. It is undeniable that divorce is detrimental to offspring, the foundation of the survival of the species.

Isn't that the point I was making? The stuff we call 'sin' and think it is wrong because God said so is wrong in human evolutionary terms because it is not conducive to survival and well -being of the individual, group, tribe and species.

But sin is a choice and evolutionary theory is supposedly a biological process where no choice whatsoever is possible. People didn’t choose to have two eyes. Evolution cannot explain why people do (frequently) that which works against the survival of the species.

In fact the fantasy of a 'Righteous community' has never been achieved within Christianity or without it.

Yea it has but only in Christianity.

Either God doesn'thelp us to acieve this righteousness or doesn't exist at all.

You are unaware of successes.

I anticipate 'Because we don't follow God's Laws'. But this is the argument of any social system 'If everyone followed the rules, it would be perfect'.

Untrue. Depends upon the rules.

But people don't because we are mischievous and selfish monkeys and we ignore what society has designated fair play in favour of personal benefit.

If we evolved how is this possible?

True religion can inspire us to be the best we can be which is why religion is also a survival instinct, but it can also serve the basest instincts, of sectarianism, holy wars and lying to and scamming the believers.

. That doesn’t fit christianity.

I agree that children survive best in a loving family. which is why we have moved beyond the old concepts of how much in shekels a woman is worth.

Where does this quote come from?

The Bible is no longer a guide to good living and following those laws are less conducive to a fair society than humanist morals.

Ah, contrar Pierre!! The Bible or teachings of Jesus in particular are thee best guide to a fair and good society. Even atheists have admitted this.

Exodus 22:16-17 “If a man seduces a virgin who is not betrothed and lies with her, he shall give the bride-price for her and make her his wife. If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the bride-price for virgins.

Despite a lot of Biblical apologetic denial,. that looks like a bride-price to me. ""I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." 1 Tim. 2:11-14

It doesn't matter if some men have loved their wives - that has nothing to do with Biblical ownership of women as the mans' property.

Christian apologists bleat about equality but only when women are used as catspaws and enablers for the religion - which is male -dominated and was until quiet recently and (like slavery and other rights) collapsed under human social pressure.

Your point about Murder fails - you don't see the point. If such acts are against survival then instincts to decry and outlaw them (unless in war) - you know this is so - and in the Bible ) would have evolved - No code from a god is needed. Moral virtue and sin is not the point - doing right or wrong in the point and human moral codes are as good or better than Biblical. And whatever you may have heard this or that atheist say (quote one) atheism argues that we can do better. Slavery for instance in the classic secular improvement over the Bible.

You miss the point on 'depends on the rules - or maybe not. Any system can claim to be perfect if the rules are followed. Rightly or wrongly. Depends on the rules. That is why if Christianity claims to be perfect if the rules are followed, it has never happened and never would. Christianity fails.

Please show me a Righteous Christian community. You are being denialist about the holy wars, crusades, sectarian strife and denominational infighting, never mind the endless scandals in religion. That may not be what Christianity is supposed to be, but that is why it fails.