The Christian Response to Homosexuality II: Legal Issues

[micatala]

As noted in the other thread, I am creating this parallel thread to specifically address the following questions.

In terms of political society, what sort of laws should Christians support with respect to homosexuality? If there is to be unequal treatment of homosexuals under the law, what is the Biblical basis for this?

Again, we can assume for the purposes of this thread that homosexuality is immoral according to standard Christian teaching. There is no need to cite scripture here to support this contention.

However, it definitely is appropriate to cite scripture to support political positions. If one is to take the position that homosexual acts should be prohibited by civil law (not just church law), that applies to both CHristians and non-CHristians, then it is incumbent upon the person taking this position to provide Biblical support for said position.

[melikio]

That is a fact.

Ok.

1John, I think you distort so much it is futile to try reasoning with you. Either that, or you believe that your "faith" is the same as or equal to reason itself. I can understand that, but it does remind me of why so many people realize and regard discussion which include "religion" as un-fruitful (zealously so, at that).

So, I see you have your opinons and views. I can argue and refute them repeatedly, but it doesn't change anything. Why discuss it with you (or those of like mind) at all?

You think/believe you are right, and that is a "fact" I can accept, where it concerns your opinions.

-Mel-

[1John2_26]

Quote:
That is a fact.

Ok.

1John, I think you distort so much it is futile to try reasoning with you.

Gays and Lesbians are legally trying to criminalize Christians that refuse to be controlled by gay political influence. Try distorting this:

Denver Conference
Campolo at
Greenbelt
Falwell blames gays
Response to Falwell
Courage and EA
Xnty Today article
Will gays lose jobs?
EFLGC conference
Rowan Williams
Archbishops and
Homosexuals
Christian Gays
in Germany
The Evangelicals
and the Archbishop
a personal reflection
Episcopal epistles
Canadian Blessing
Evangelical Ultimatum
Williams at Synod
Discrimination at work
Easter resources
A Church at War
Letter from an
alien visitor

Information/Publications
Information/Enquiries

http://www.royclements.co.uk/essays04.htm

Homophobia in the Church
.The Lesbian and Gay Christian Fellowship has recently published a research report entitled Christian Homophobia. It defines homophobia as an irrational hatred, disapproval, or fear of homosexuality, gay and lesbian people, and their culture and details a number of case studies which illustrate the following key findings:.

That the majority of homophobic abuse suffered by gay men and lesbians in the UK is supported by the words and actions of the Christian churches..
That such homophobia has a serious daily effect on the health and well-being of the gay and lesbian population of this country, sometimes leading to absence from work, depression, physical harm and even suicide..
That the Christian churches in the UK have had a disproportionate influence on legislation affecting gays and lesbians and have, at every turn, tried to frustrate the will of parliament, defy the international consensus on human rights, and to gain exemption for themselves from the fair and equal treatment of lesbians and gay men.
That in the methods and organisation, conservative Christian groups in this country now amount to a "Christian Right" similar to that which has been active in the US for some years.
That some bishops and other church leaders act hypocritically in regard to the lesbian and gay members and clergy of their churches, knowing that they are licensing and ordaining gay clergy whilst publicly denying this.
That such hypocrisy rewards deceit and dishonesty and is deleterious to the health and well being of those who are forced into such a lifestyle.
That a significant number of clergy have been dismissed, made homeless and forced to rely on state benefits because of their sexuality.
That lesbian and gay church members are being expelled from congregations, lesbian and gay groups have been refused the use of church premises, church run welfare and housing organisations have specifically excluded gay men and lesbians
That sermons and Christian resource material supporting gay men and lesbians have been censored or destroyed, and that young people in church youth groups and other Christian settings are being indoctrinated into homophobia.
That there are sigificant numbers of counsellors, psychologists and other health professionals whose "Christian" beliefs lead them to attempt the "changing", "curing", or "exorcising" of gay men and lesbians against all the advice of reputable professional associations.
That there are occasional instances of heroic and truly Christian people within the churches taking a stand to support the lesbian and gay community. There are many gay and lesbian Christians who are prepared to work for the redemption of the churches from the sin of homophobia, often at great personal cost.
The full report is availablefrom LGCM, Oxford House, Derbyshire St., London E2 6HG

More details are also available on their website www.lgcm.org.uk

A Christian Homphobia Hotline has also been established which invites calls in confidence from any gay man or lesbian who feels they have been discriminated against by Christians:

As you can see, gay activists are trying desperately to masquerade as Christians to force their views on the populace; which includes too many rational Christians for their comfort level. It is incredible to watch. Click on lgcm.org.uk and watch the circus of gay apologia sold as orthodoxy and theology. It is incredible the times we are living in. Now, repenting and forgiveness are hate crimes unless they are defined by homosexual social activists.

Either that, or you believe that your "faith" is the same as or equal to reason itself.

I have been more than clear that that is the case. Logic comes from Logos.

I can understand that, but it does remind me of why so many people realize and regard discussion which include "religion" as un-fruitful (zealously so, at that).

Really. How telling. "We" Christians hold that there is pure fruitfulness in Christ.

So, I see you have your opinons and views. I can argue and refute them repeatedly, but it doesn't change anything. Why discuss it with you (or those of like mind) at all?

You have yet refuted any position I hold. I do not want to "discuss" anything with you. Leave me a Private message for that. This is a debate website. Not a chat room.

You think/believe you are right, and that is a "fact" I can accept, where it concerns your opinions.

We'll see if the Democrats take power.

What would be good for the debate is for you to present some beneficial points of view for Christians to embrace and celebrate, support and promote homosexuality, backed up by Biblical textual support.

I'll bet you a dollar, I could do it (with just a bit of deception presented as civility). But my soul is not for sale. Truth is truth and I'd rather settle on the consequences for holding fast to that which is good.

This is serious business in reality. As can be seen from the movements I posted above, homosexuals are moving heaven and earth to criminalize Christians that do not submit to their agenda.

[Grumpy]

1John2_26

Let's disect this boilerplate(once again) and see how much is actually true.

That the majority of homophobic abuse suffered by gay men and lesbians in the UK is supported by the words and actions of the Christian churches..

True

That such homophobia has a serious daily effect on the health and well-being of the gay and lesbian population of this country, sometimes leading to absence from work, depression, physical harm and even suicide..

Also true

That the Christian churches in the UK have had a disproportionate influence on legislation affecting gays and lesbians and have, at every turn, tried to frustrate the will of parliament, defy the international consensus on human rights, and to gain exemption for themselves from the fair and equal treatment of lesbians and gay men.

True again

That in the methods and organisation, conservative Christian groups in this country now amount to a "Christian Right" similar to that which has been active in the US for some years.

We all know this is true.

That some bishops and other church leaders act hypocritically in regard to the lesbian and gay members and clergy of their churches, knowing that they are licensing and ordaining gay clergy whilst publicly denying this.

Can you say Catholics???

That such hypocrisy rewards deceit and dishonesty and is deleterious to the health and well being of those who are forced into such a lifestyle.

Well, DUH!!!

That a significant number of clergy have been dismissed, made homeless and forced to rely on state benefits because of their sexuality.

That's just not right!!!

That lesbian and gay church members are being expelled from congregations, lesbian and gay groups have been refused the use of church premises, church run welfare and housing organisations have specifically excluded gay men and lesbians

And they still have tax exempt status??? And government subsidies(under the Republicans) That is illegal, isn't it??? Good thing they are not doing the same thing over here, it would violate their civil rights!!!

That sermons and Christian resource material supporting gay men and lesbians have been censored or destroyed, and that young people in church youth groups and other Christian settings are being indoctrinated into homophobia.

That would be you, John.

That there are sigificant numbers of counsellors, psychologists and other health professionals whose "Christian" beliefs lead them to attempt the "changing", "curing", or "exorcising" of gay men and lesbians against all the advice of reputable professional associations.

Since when have religious nuts ever sought out professional opinions when they have all the answers in their interpretations of an old Jewish book, or other tome.

Actually, John, these people are much saner, truthful and right by the teachings of Jesus than you will ever be.

Grumpy

[micatala]

Nice Dialetrics Micatala.

Too bad they don't fully line up.

How so? What is the evidence that the observations and interpretations I offered are not valid?

The passage you offer from Jeremiah would of course be classified as prophecy, not law. Jeremiah is responding to the problem of the Israelites falling away from fulfilling their obligations under the Covenant they had with Yahweh. This Covenant applied to them, even though they did not really enter into it voluntarily (but were rather chosen).

In this passage, it is the Lord who will be making the judgments, not men. Again, there is no justification here for having men enact civil law, or making judgments on other men, especially those who are not believers.



CHristians enter into their relationship with Jesus voluntarily. Also, CHristians are not bound by OT law, as is made very clear in many places in the NT. For example:

15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

_________________

The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[d]

___________________


10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

You have commented that 'God does not change' and implied that this must mean that the OT law applies to us today the same as it did to the Israelites. I believe this arguement is in error.

I would agree that God's nature and essence do not change. Nor does his love for us. However, it is very clear from the Bible that, when acting within time, within the world, his actions do change. He treated the Israelites differently than he treats those of us who believe in Jesus, for example. In the OT he is described as being angry at some times, and merciful and kind at others. Using your logic, if he is angry once, he must be angry always and without ceasing.

[melikio]

I would agree that God's nature and essence do not change. Nor does his love for us. However, it is very clear from the Bible that, when acting within time, within the world, his actions do change.

WOW!!

Micatala, before I ever argued about religon or homosexuality, I came to the exact same conclusion; just by reading the Bible.

Not that it means anything for THIS topic, but I do find it interesting that you state that almost "exactly" as I have almost always understod it.

Additionally, I'm certain that Christians aren't required to be under the Old Testament anymore as well. Not that we would have to discard the Old Testament (and likely shouldn't), but that trying to live under it as a list of LAWS to be followed, is no longer required (as far as I know).

-Mel-

[micatala]

Additionally, I'm certain that Christians aren't required to be under the Old Testament anymore as well. Not that we would have to discard the Old Testament (and likely shouldn't), but that trying to live under it as a list of LAWS to be followed, is no longer required (as far as I know).

Yes, I believe this is the best interpretation, and one that is prevalent in a wide variety of denominations.

It is of value to follow the law, but it is not required, nor does it lead to salvation. Romans chapter 14 discusses what might be called 'debatable issues' among believers. Paul specifically mentions dietary laws and the keeping of holy days, but the application is clearly wider.

What Paul instructs is that 'each of us should be convinced in his own mind' that our belief or practice is appropriate. If we are acting out of faith, we are OK. If we are not acting out of faith, 'we are already condemned.'

It should be mentioned that we should also act for our brother's benefit. FOr example, Paul says it is fine to eat meat that would have been forbidden under Jewish law. However, we should not make a show of it, or cause our brother to fall by what we eat.

This is a tricky thing. In the present situation with regards to homosexuality, it might be that a homosexual believer is fully convinced in his own heart that he has been created the way he is, and that God accepts him as he is. It is not up to other believers to judge such a person, as he has already entrusted his judgment to God.

IMO, it is incumbent upon such a believer, however, to act responsibly towards those who might have their faith weakened as a result of his position. Notice, I do not say he should be necessarily worried about others taking offence, but only that he take care not to harm the faith of others, as much as it is in his power.

Again, this is tricky. We should not be slaves to the sensitivities of others, but we must always keep in mind that we are asked to put others welfare before our own.

Gays and Lesbians are legally trying to criminalize Christians that refuse to be controlled by gay political influence. Try distorting this:

I have to say, there is no need to distort it because it has already been distorted. Your statement is hyperbolic and not supported by the evidence. The argument you make and the evidence you cite continues to confuse opposition with criminalization.


At any rate, such assertions are not on topic.

[melikio]

We should not be slaves to the sensitivities of others, but we must always keep in mind that we are asked to put others welfare before our own.

I agree wholeheartedly. And the concept you've related above, is the kind of love described in 1Cor13 (and other biblical passages).

From God, I see unconditional love; but not so often from many who claim to be His followers. And I remember, that the Bible did say that "love" would be a type of "mark" on those who truly were His followers.

From that (love), I learned to question and challenge certain things.

I've noticed that some people use the Bible like it's "RAID". When they
encounter some pest (challenge), they "spray" AT it, rather than attempting to really understand it. They spray the problem and leave it for dead, only to find that the problem (conflict) did not die. It would be one thing if bugs/insects are treated that way, but highly unfortunate when human beings are treated the same way.

And now, since some see the Bible as perhaps not having the kind of "power" (effect) they desire, they are seeking "LAWS" to "spray" AT homosexuality.

I think that the spiritual reality is this: Christians should not be seeking to PLAY God, but to love others (primarily) as they have been instructed to do. Any campaigns to change or fix man's sinful nature, is futile; only God can change a person, and He does it from the inside.

The Christian response should be to protect the resonable rights/liberties for all; not just those who would "agree" exclusively with their views.

-Mel-

[micatala]

I've noticed that some people use the Bible like it's "RAID". When they
encounter some pest (challenge), they "spray" AT it, rather than attempting to really understand it. They spray the problem and leave it for dead, only to find that the problem (conflict) did not die. It would be one thing if bugs/insects are treated that way, but highly unfortunate when human beings are treated the same way.

An interesting metaphor!

Especially when a person quotes isolated verses and ignores others that contradict their point, I think you are describing the phenomenon well.

Most of the time when I have seen the Bible quoted to justify discriminatory laws, the larger context of the verses quoted is ignored. I think the passages I quoted in response to chachynga show one example of this.

I think that the spiritual reality is this: Christians should not be seeking to PLAY God, but to love others (primarily) as they have been instructed to do. Any campaigns to change or fix man's sinful nature, is futile; only God can change a person, and He does it from the inside.

Agreed. This is clearly the message of Romans 14 and the other passages on the theme 'judge not.' One must always consider the context, including what is being judged and who is doing the judging. Too often, people fall into the error of assuming they have are given the same power to judge as God. This is not supported Biblically.

[1John2_26]

Grumpy with a personal insult wrote:

1John2_26

Let's disect this boilerplate(once again) and see how much is actually true.

Quote:
That the majority of homophobic abuse suffered by gay men and lesbians in the UK is supported by the words and actions of the Christian churches..

True

Homophobe and homophobia are new words invented to criminalize Christians that will not submit to homosexual power being held over the Bible's clear and immutable opposition to homosexuality. The Queer Culture is thriving in England. Your "true" is wrong.

Quote:
That such homophobia has a serious daily effect on the health and well-being of the gay and lesbian population of this country, sometimes leading to absence from work, depression, physical harm and even suicide..

Also true

They call themsleves "Gay" do they not? "They" are thriving in England.

Quote:
That the Christian churches in the UK have had a disproportionate influence on legislation affecting gays and lesbians and have, at every turn, tried to frustrate the will of parliament, defy the international consensus on human rights, and to gain exemption for themselves from the fair and equal treatment of lesbians and gay men.

True again

Elton John and his man-wife or, man-husband or, whatever . . . just "tied the knot "in England." Seems another lie from the gay community was just proven as such. Sorry grumpster.

Quote:
That in the methods and organisation, conservative Christian groups in this country now amount to a "Christian Right" similar to that which has been active in the US for some years.

We all know this is true.

Preaching the Bible as it is written is only seen as wrong from atheists and interestingly gay christians too. The clubmembership of the left have interesting bedfellows. All anti-Christian. As we see, your in lock step with your perspective.

Quote:
That some bishops and other church leaders act hypocritically in regard to the lesbian and gay members and clergy of their churches, knowing that they are licensing and ordaining gay clergy whilst publicly denying this.

Can you say Catholics???

Only the ones believing in the Bible as important to Christians.

Quote:
That such hypocrisy rewards deceit and dishonesty and is deleterious to the health and well being of those who are forced into such a lifestyle.

Well, DUH!!!

Deceit and honesty to people that proclaim that anal and oral sex are natural sexual functions hardly have a logical stance on asserting what is healthy. The Queer Community is clearly demanding to force their views on Christians and of course atheists are supporting that all the way.

Quote:
That a significant number of clergy have been dismissed, made homeless and forced to rely on state benefits because of their sexuality.

That's just not right!!!

How did these deceitful and dishonest homosexuals accept their ordeinations in the first place? Now will the left demand that Imam's and Warlocks become Priestst and Pastors over Christians? It seems the die is cast in that direction and if Christians try to defend against that they will be labeled witchaphobes and Jihadistaphobes. Why would anyone "choose" to become a Christian with so much hatred from atheists, gays and others in political power ready to smash them down if they squeak a word about Christ biblically accurately?

Quote:
That lesbian and gay church members are being expelled from congregations, lesbian and gay groups have been refused the use of church premises, church run welfare and housing organisations have specifically excluded gay men and lesbians

And they still have tax exempt status???

As we see time and again the liberals on the left are trying ther dandest to take away tax exempt status in hopes to dissolve the Christian community. Yet, The Queer Community has open arms for anyone wanting to come on in. No one is stopped for choosing the Queer Community. Only Christians are demanded to shut up and disband if the do not accept being forced into the Queer and atheist/secular world. Their is no offer of dissent . . . and you rebuttals prove it. There is no shread of support for celebrating homosexuality in the Bible and the war declared on Christians proves that as well.

And government subsidies(under the Republicans) That is illegal, isn't it???

How? There is no seperation of church and state in the constitution? Establishing a religion is not the issue, giving money for good people to help needy people is the issue. The religions have already been established AND not by the government. I notice with interest the hysteria and hate from liberals and atheists over this.

Good thing they are not doing the same thing over here, it would violate their civil rights!!!

Criminalization of Christianty proven by your assertion. Thatnk you.

Quote:
That sermons and Christian resource material supporting gay men and lesbians have been censored or destroyed, and that young people in church youth groups and other Christian settings are being indoctrinated into homophobia.

That would be you, John.

Why lie? You needn't. Anyone on this website knows I post the gay hatred of Christians in all of its entirety. I never want it to be thrown away. The proof is a necessary thing to grasp to prove that Christians are the good guys and the incredible forces joined to crush Christians is as real as the ACLU, PFLAG, and NAMBLA.

Quote:
That there are sigificant numbers of counsellors, psychologists and other health professionals whose "Christian" beliefs lead them to attempt the "changing", "curing", or "exorcising" of gay men and lesbians against all the advice of reputable professional associations.

Since when have religious nuts ever sought out professional opinions when they have all the answers in their interpretations of an old Jewish book, or other tome.

Actually, John, these people are much saner, truthful and right by the teachings of Jesus than you will ever be.

I notice that this website allows you unfettered access to personal insults and have never moved to censor you. The clubmembership of the left.

I have at least given you sole credit for attempting to present Biblical texts to support the overhauling of Christianity into a new gay cruising club scene. You should at least give me credit for giving you a nod of respect even if it was only once. Satan has been given power and why should I not recognize it? I oppose it, but why should I not respect wit and cunningness?

You should stop attempting to personally insult me, it is laughable for one thing, and makes your clubmembers uneasy. You should attempt your Biblical presentation to alter Biblical truth and allow the debate to be waged as point counter-point. You do not serve your "freethinker" rank very well when you attempt petty insults. It comes off as what we both know it really is.

That you are an adversary of Christians is OK and God-willed. Take your stance with wit, assertion, sarcasm and opinion. And let the fur fly from there. Petty comments and incessant personal insult just proves I am on the right track about those hating Christians and shows you are heading in the direction I claim you are.

[Cathar1950]

Homophobe and homophobia are new words invented to criminalize Christians that will not submit to homosexual power being held over the Bible's clear and immutable opposition to homosexuality. The Queer Culture is thriving in England. Your "true" is wrong.

No they are not invented for that reason and that is nothing but a falsehood.
No one has criminalized Christians. There are laws against abuse but it is not limited to Christians nor do all Christians commit offences. I personally think bigot is a better word, but when referring to homophobia we are talking about a mental condition.
No one is asking Christians to submit to homosexuals. The bible is not that clear on the subject considering there are only a few passages that are rather vague and subject to many interpretations.

Preaching the Bible as it is written is only seen as wrong from atheists and interestingly gay christians too. The clubmembership of the left have interesting bedfellows. All anti-Christian. As we see, your in lock step with your perspective.

The club membership is your invention and is not creditable. Many find the bible questionable including Christians. How come you didn’t capitalize Christian above? Is this your form of hypocrisy? You seem to be the only one in any lock-step behavior.

Deceit and honesty to people that proclaim that anal and oral sex are natural sexual functions hardly have a logical stance on asserting what is healthy. The Queer Community is clearly demanding to force their views on Christians and of course atheists are supporting that all the way.

It is hard to argue against your nonsense. Many Christians support gays and it is not limited to atheist. Again you show a lack of reasoning. No one is forcing his or her view on any one except you. Over and over you have shown deceit and dishonesty. Anal and oral sex is not limited to homosexuals and being a homosexual does not limit the displays of affection that you seem so obsessed with in your constant limited perspective.

How did these deceitful and dishonest homosexuals accept their ordeinations in the first place? Now will the left demand that Imam's and Warlocks become Priestst and Pastors over Christians? It seems the die is cast in that direction and if Christians try to defend against that they will be labeled witchaphobes and Jihadistaphobes. Why would anyone "choose" to become a Christian with so much hatred from atheists, gays and others in political power ready to smash them down if they squeak a word about Christ biblically accurately?

I find it hard to believe you have the nerve to complain about Grumpy insulting you.
You have just called homosexuals deceitful and dishonest. The above made no sense at all.
Christians in this country do not need to defend themselves. Your hate speech shows that you have things backwards as usual. What you constantly complain about is you own attitude projected upon others.

Criminalization of Christianty proven by your assertion. Thatnk you.

Again no one has criminalized Christianity. You don’t have proof you have your lie.

I notice that this website allows you unfettered access to personal insults and have never moved to censor you. The clubmembership of the left.

You are just being silly. You have managed to insult liberals, gays and every one else yet you are still here. You should have been censored long ago.