Can science not tell us what happens after we die?

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OccamsRazor
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Can science not tell us what happens after we die?

Post #1

Post by OccamsRazor »

In another thread Joe Blackbird made the following statement:
Joe Blackbird wrote:No one knows what caused life or what happens after we die, not science, not religion
Is this correct? I feel that science can tell us quite accurately what happens to our body after we die. Am I correct or am I unfairly dismissing the notion of a 'soul'?

Ultimately, it seems that both science and religion (specifically formal religion) each describe in very detailed terms what happens when you die. Does this make the statement invalid or do I misunderstand the nature of Joe's assertion?

The question is: Can science not tell us what happens after we die?

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Post #21

Post by OccamsRazor »

harvey1 wrote:O.Razor, please read again what I wrote. I am not saying that quantum tunneling abides by a classical description.
No, my apologies, you are correct, I did misread what you said.
harvey1 wrote:I don't think that I am making bold assumptions. I'm dealing with an answer as a variable X which we do not yet know (or possibly cannot know). If X is necessary, then there is a metaphysical law that makes X obtain. If X is contingent, then by definition there are at least two options that could become X, which makes the fact that those values obtained in our behalf as lucky. There's no bold assumptions in this.
My point here is that you use a contingent universe to logically mitigate atheism, which I feel requires too great a step and then you are using this to refer to QEDs statement as being tu quoque. I feel that this is an unfair assessment.
harvey1 wrote:Well, can you tell me how identity of a particle travelling through a barrier can maintain its identity?
When the particle has tunnelled its colour, topness, spin, charm and strangeness are all maintained. Surely this means it has maintained its identity, it is the same particle.

Furthermore, I agree with QED. Quantum tunnelling and entanglement seem spurious in this case. I cannot see (maybe this is my own failing) how we can relate these phenomena to the continuing existence of human consciousness after corporeal death.

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Post #22

Post by harvey1 »

QED wrote:When I talked about continuity it was in relation to personality. I wanted to convey how the personality of an individual can be destroyed in a material accident. Loss of continuity here is due to a barrier presented by brain damage and a new personality emerges. Obviously no form of tunneling is taking place otherwise we would expect no change in personality. The prior personality is, as far as I can see, lost and is usurped by a new personality. What is the suggestion then? Is it that personality A tunnels out of the mind when it is usurped by personality B? That sounds like the "soul" of A goes off to heaven leaving the "soul" of B to go to hell. This would mean that "You" could go off to heaven or hell while your body is still walking around!
No, because the soul never took possession of the body to begin with. All that the "soul" means is that a metaphysical structure exemplified itself into the physical world by means of a physical process. For example, if a sunflower plant dies and rots, we don't say that the fibonacci sequence structure left the plant and went back to Platonia. The fibonacci sequence structure was never "in" the sunflower plant to begin with. Rather, the fibonacci sequence structure was exemplified by the plant, and when the plant died the instantiation process ceased as well. Similarly, when someone dies, their soul doesn't technically leave them as if it was inside the person as a kind of back-up metaphysical tape recorder. What "leaves" them is the identity that the body has with the soul.

In the case of brain damage, the person can no longer instantiate the soul of their former self, at least in full. The same situation could occur if we took a sunflower and damaged the plant's ability to produce the fibonacci sequence. Perhaps another sequence emerges as a result of the damage, and therefore the lifetime description of that flower consists of many sub-descriptions which are summed over the history of the flower. A botanist who is recording the final lifetime description of the flower will consider the original fibonacci sequence that was present, and put that as a major reason to consider this as a genuine sunflower despite the damage (i.e., the botanist will ignore the damage as evidence that this really wasn't a sunflower). Similarly, when God sums over the paths in our life--i.e., when trying to determine exactly what soul we instantiated, God will judge which paths must be cancelled out because they do not contribute to a proper description of "us."
QED wrote:Bringing up Quantum Tunneling, although a fascinating phenomenon, seems totally spurious to this matter. I have to wonder at the legitimacy of identifying non-classical behaviour in the Quantum domain and then using it to say "there -- see; physical reality isn't how we expect it to be -- it is possible for things to get through barriers, be non-local etc." I simply can't accept that a case has been made for these microscopic effects to be held up as examples of how macroscopic systems might behave -- not at room temperatures and pressures at any rate. Isn't it the case that the science is simply being stretched too far?
I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say, QED. I'm not claiming that dying is a quantum tunneling event. What I'm claiming is that we know that the particle that undergoes quantum tunneling is the same particle that existed prior to the tunneling event, therefore the logic of the universe allows for identity to continue past a physical discontinuity. The analogy of tunneling is to show that the objection is without foundation (i.e., the objection which tries to disprove discontinuous identity as possible).

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Post #23

Post by harvey1 »

OccamsRazor wrote:My point here is that you use a contingent universe to logically mitigate atheism, which I feel requires too great a step and then you are using this to refer to QEDs statement as being tu quoque. I feel that this is an unfair assessment.
Well, it's not only that particular argument that I referenced, but a half dozen other arguments were mentioned as well.
O.Razor wrote:
harvey1 wrote:Well, can you tell me how identity of a particle travelling through a barrier can maintain its identity?
When the particle has tunnelled its colour, topness, spin, charm and strangeness are all maintained. Surely this means it has maintained its identity, it is the same particle.
This alone is not identity since we could conceivably show, at least theoretically, that a number of other particles could possess these properties at a point near to where the barrier exists. If 10 other particles existed near the barrier having those properties, would that mean that the tunneled particle became a multiple?
O.Razor wrote:Furthermore, I agree with QED. Quantum tunnelling and entanglement seem spurious in this case. I cannot see (maybe this is my own failing) how we can relate these phenomena to the continuing existence of human consciousness after corporeal death.
As I said to QED, the analogy with quantum tunneling is only to show that discontinuity does not destroy identity in at least this instance, and therefore something more must be established by you and QED to show that identity of the person is lost upon their demise.

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Post #24

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harvey1 wrote:No, because the soul never took possession of the body to begin with. All that the "soul" means is that a metaphysical structure exemplified itself into the physical world by means of a physical process. For example, if a sunflower plant dies and rots, we don't say that the fibonacci sequence structure left the plant and went back to Platonia. The fibonacci sequence structure was never "in" the sunflower plant to begin with. Rather, the fibonacci sequence structure was exemplified by the plant, and when the plant died the instantiation process ceased as well. Similarly, when someone dies, their soul doesn't technically leave them as if it was inside the person as a kind of back-up metaphysical tape recorder. What "leaves" them is the identity that the body has with the soul.
Harvey, this is all very interesting but is there any reason why this must be the case rather than, say, the fact that at death the personality simply ceases to exist? Why must some representation of personality exist eternally?

I just think that in order to give it more consideration we something that leads us towards considering it in the first place. The simplest solution is that all remnants of personality simply cease to exist and I think we need some reason beyond desire to justify the need for an explanation beyond that.
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. (Stephen Roberts)

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Post #25

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harvey1 wrote:No, because the soul never took possession of the body to begin with. All that the "soul" means is that a metaphysical structure exemplified itself into the physical world by means of a physical process. For example, if a sunflower plant dies and rots, we don't say that the fibonacci sequence structure left the plant and went back to Platonia. The fibonacci sequence structure was never "in" the sunflower plant to begin with. Rather, the fibonacci sequence structure was exemplified by the plant, and when the plant died the instantiation process ceased as well. Similarly, when someone dies, their soul doesn't technically leave them as if it was inside the person as a kind of back-up metaphysical tape recorder. What "leaves" them is the identity that the body has with the soul.
This is an interesting speculation but I doubt if this is what Christian theologians mean by soul. But maybe they're wrong.
Occam, if I may borrow your razor (I have not used mine since 1979), I think that we can dispense with this "metaphysical structure exemplified itself into the physical world by means of a physical process". It is certainly not required to understand human existence.
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Post #26

Post by QED »

HughDP wrote: I just think that in order to give it more consideration we something that leads us towards considering it in the first place. The simplest solution is that all remnants of personality simply cease to exist and I think we need some reason beyond desire to justify the need for an explanation beyond that.
Hugh, I think it's pretty clear that there's a major problem for Christianity if there is no continuity for the individual following death. Without the prospect of an afterlife in which things can be "made up" to innocents who suffered in their time on Earth, or for there to be something of us to be judged and either rewarded or punished, then some pretty big cracks would appear to open up in the self-consistent logic of the religion. That's how it looks to me anyhow, that coupled with the natural desire to see ourselves "beating the system" and continuing to enjoy the experience of existence, both form a mighty strong motive for arguing for there being an afterlife.

And what a great position to take-up given the unfalsifiability of the hypothesis and all the freaky-deaky supernatural things supposedly going on in seance rooms and haunted houses... not to mention the wonderful hallucinatory effects that Near Death Experiences create in their subjects(as if we should be the least bit surprised given what a little amount of oxygen starvation does to us when we drink too much).

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Post #27

Post by harvey1 »

HughDP wrote:...this is all very interesting but is there any reason why this must be the case rather than, say, the fact that at death the personality simply ceases to exist? Why must some representation of personality exist eternally?
If we are forced to admit that the world behaves according to the laws of dynamical systems, and mathematics is needed to describe the topology of a state space of such a system, then it seems to me that we are forced to equate an attractor basin as an explanation as to why a particular personality formed.
Hugh wrote:I just think that in order to give it more consideration we something that leads us towards considering it in the first place. The simplest solution is that all remnants of personality simply cease to exist and I think we need some reason beyond desire to justify the need for an explanation beyond that.
I think we need to consider exemplification as a cause for particular physical phenomena because we see so much of it. For example, there's many mathematical structures that exhibit themselves in the natural world, so it would seem to suggest that physical implementation of these structures holds an enormous advantage to the system that takes on those structures.

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Post #28

Post by harvey1 »

McCulloch wrote:This is an interesting speculation but I doubt if this is what Christian theologians mean by soul.
Well, you might be surprised the long history that neoplatonism has had with Christianity.
McCulloch wrote:Occam, if I may borrow your razor (I have not used mine since 1979), I think that we can dispense with this "metaphysical structure exemplified itself into the physical world by means of a physical process". It is certainly not required to understand human existence.
Yeah, but when I asked the question on contingency, your razor was conveniently lost. Btw, I always like to remind everyone, Ockham was a theist.

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Post #29

Post by McCulloch »

harvey1 wrote:If we are forced to admit that the world behaves according to the laws of dynamical systems, and mathematics is needed to describe the topology of a state space of such a system, then it seems to me that we are forced to equate an attractor basin as an explanation as to why a particular personality formed.
Even if we were, that would not equate to a person's post-death existence. Dynamical systems and attractor basins are mathematical models not souls. If our personalities were determined by such mathematical models, then free will is an illusion since these mathematical models are deterministic. Would you say that there is a different attractor basin for each soul? Or like the sunflowers and the fibonacci sequence there is really only one model which explains the pattern. If human personalities work as you seem to describe, then there really would be only one (incredibly complex) mathematical model to describe all human personalities and the personalities would be different due to different initial conditions. Determinism again.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Post #30

Post by McCulloch »

harvey1 wrote:Well, you might be surprised the long history that neoplatonism has had with Christianity.
No, not particularly. But they are not describing human souls as Platonic ideals.
You cite Francesco Cattani da Diacceto who wrote:The human soul from its intermediate position between matter and spirit can achieve happiness through the combined effort of will and intellect to possess God. The universe itself is animated. The angelic nature is completely lucid; man's soul, partly so; the body, altogether dark. Bodily beauty can be either a scala dei or the soul's ruination.
harvey1 wrote:Btw, I always like to remind everyone, Ockham was a theist.
So were many great thinkers and theorists. That does not make them wrong about other things.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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