Marriage at very young age

[mms20102]

Marriage at the age of 10 11 and 12 was the habit of the 11th up to 17th century what do you think about it

[mms20102]

now I want some one to define adultery to me maybe I don't seem to get it right

[KenRU]

now I want some one to define adultery to me maybe I don't seem to get it right

Adultery: 1. voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and someone other than his or her lawful spouse.

Arguing children marrying can be a good thing is to completely ignore the following:

1) the emotional and biological development of children (by DEFINITION) is below that of an adult.
2) Education and experience of children is BY LACK OF EXPERIENCE below that of an adult.
3) Financial Security (in most cases) will be OBVIOULSY below that of an adult.

How can any of this be a good foundation for any ADULT STYLE relationship.



Oh, and for the record, children a long time ago were absolutely NOT more mature then today. The exact OPPOSITE is true.

all the best,

[Neatras]

Oh, and for the record, children a long time ago were absolutely NOT more mature then today. The exact OPPOSITE is true.

Okay, I'm getting the feeling that no matter how much we spell this out, and how effectively we make our case, this is going to be the jumping point for him to assert all kinds of asinine things. We need to do better to point out that just because greater educational opportunities exist, doesn't mean we should support children working in the military or forming romantic marriage unions even if they are objectively more educated and more mature than children in the past.

[KenRU]

Oh, and for the record, children a long time ago were absolutely NOT more mature then today. The exact OPPOSITE is true.

Okay, I'm getting the feeling that no matter how much we spell this out, and how effectively we make our case, this is going to be the jumping point for him to assert all kinds of asinine things. We need to do better to point out that just because greater educational opportunities exist, doesn't mean we should support children working in the military or forming romantic marriage unions even if they are objectively more educated and more mature than children in the past.

Agreed, but to be clear, when I say "mature" in my above quote, I mean biologically and emotionally. Children today hit puberty at an earlier age then 50 or 100 years ago. By no means should anyone take this to mean that I support that cruel notion that children should be married at age 5 or having sex at age 9 today.

Hopefully, that is clear.

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 22 by KenRU]

As I have seen you seem to get adultery concept the wrong way ..
Adultery is any sexual relationship between any unmarried two partners ...

That means any boyfriend and girlfriend are actually committing adultery

So no marriage necessary for adultery to exist

Now my grandmother got married at the age 13 and my grand father married her at the age of 16 they had 6 children and they are all married now they didn't fail for once to know how raise a child and my grandfather has never enslaved my grand mother . In many places in the rural area in Egypt people still get married at a young age and they don't necessarily need new home they actually live at the home of the parents until the man can provide a new one

now while searching over the internet you find more surprising things but here
http://www.bioreference.net/encyclopedi ... ear.html#8 years old
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 311AASZqc1
2 or more confirmed they had sexual intercourse at the age of 13 and I'm sure you know a lot of stories like but the question is why we leave them do it without our knowledge and wait until some thing wrong happens and maybe at some times they turn to be unchaste

Sexual intercourse at young age will forever exist if the "mode"(statistical term) for the age to have sex is almost 17 then half of the nation had sex before the age of 17
now can you control it and stop it ? with all the laws passed still they do it at the age of 13 because they are physically mature and once they are physically mature they get " desire " don't tell me that the list above failed to raise a generation they could do it with no hard time

If you are saying they have to wait to be 16 to become more responsible well the age for a man to be fully mature is 40 ! then let's keep them for the age of 40

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 22 by KenRU]

As I have seen you seem to get adultery concept the wrong way ..
Adultery is any sexual relationship between any unmarried two partners ...

That means any boyfriend and girlfriend are actually committing adultery

So no marriage necessary for adultery to exist

You are flatly, unquestionably and inarguably wrong. The definition I provided is from Dictionary.com.

From Merriam Webster: "sex between a married person and someone who is not that person's wife or husband".

From The Free Dictionary: "Consensual sexual intercourse between a married person and a person other than the spouse."

Would you like more sources that show how patently incorrect you are?

Now my grandmother got married at the age 13 and my grand father married her at the age of 16 they had 6 children and they are all married now they didn't fail for once to know how raise a child and my grandfather has never enslaved my grand mother . In many places in the rural area in Egypt people still get married at a young age and they don't necessarily need new home they actually live at the home of the parents until the man can provide a new one

I will assume that this was a happy environment and also assume that the environment provided by your grandparents was a healthy one, and I am happy for you.

But the argument that something exists therefore it is good, is a poor one. Slavery exists. Is it good? That you (may) have found an exception to the data provided does not mean that it is a good idea for children to engage in sex and get married..

now while searching over the internet you find more surprising things but here
http://www.bioreference.net/encyclopedi ... ear.html#8 years old
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 311AASZqc1
2 or more confirmed they had sexual intercourse at the age of 13 and I'm sure you know a lot of stories like but the question is why we leave them do it without our knowledge and wait until some thing wrong happens and maybe at some times they turn to be unchaste

Sexual intercourse at young age will forever exist if the "mode"(statistical term) for the age to have sex is almost 17 then half of the nation had sex before the age of 17
now can you control it and stop it ? with all the laws passed still they do it at the age of 13 because they are physically mature and once they are physically mature they get " desire " don't tell me that the list above failed to raise a generation they could do it with no hard time

If you are saying they have to wait to be 16 to become more responsible well the age for a man to be fully mature is 40 ! then let's keep them for the age of 40

The solution to a problem of ignorance is not to just accept it. It is education. The more education and information one has the more tools they have to make an informed and healthy decision. Just look at Abstinence Only Programs. They fail miserably time and again. Why?

Because the youth of today (in those programs) do not have the tools necessary to make educated and informed decisions.

-all the best

[marco]

[Replying to post 9 by Neatras]

so you accept adultery and refuse marriage ?!

You have your ideas confused. First, marriage between children was a political convenience, as between Mary Queen of Scots and Francis of France. The partners did not choose and consummated the marriage later.

In the case off Muhammad he was in his forties when he wanted a six year old girl as a "wife", the daughter of his friend. Civilised people, then and before, would regard this as wrong. He apparently asked Allah when it would be right to have sex with the child and was told to wait a few weeks after she first had a period and so he had sex with the little girl at nine. Do not attempt to say this was good practice in those days. For a man who is regarded as a role model, it is repulsive.

If the way to prevent adultery is to marry a child, then there is something wrong with the religious issues here. The Bible may be obsessed with sex but sex occupies a ridiculous place in Islam, where on green beige couches virgins wait for MALES. The entire emphasis is on MALE sexuality.

[mms20102]

[Replying to post 26 by KenRU]

[Replying to post 27 by marco]

In Islam and in particular in Arabic adultery = ( Premarital sex + Extramarital sex )

Being adultery moral or immoral some thing was based on religion on first place , a simple example is if your girlfriend cheats on you would you call he adulterous ?
According to your definition she is ok to do so and she is not adulterous according to my definition you 3 are adulterous

The miss-conception of adultery can lead to allowing sex between brothers and sisters now marco since you believe in nothing tell me how moral is that ?

According to my religion once a child physically mature he/she is a responsible person and can be judged for what he is doing being mature early or late differ from person to another we don't have that massive amount of girls that become mature at the age of 9 they are very few yet you argue for morality of man to marry a "teen "

I don't know why you change definitions to prove your point a child is not at all cases same as teen if you mix both then you are making a double standard

In seventh-century Arabia, adulthood was defined as the onset of puberty. (This much is true, and was also the case in Europe: five centuries after Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, 44-year-old King John of England married 12-year-old Isabella of Angoulême.) Interestingly, of the many criticisms of Muhammad made at the time by his opponents, none focused on Aisha's age at marriage can you tell me why ?

According to this perspective, Aisha may have been young, but she was not younger than was the norm at the time.

In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19 it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was non had record of births all were estimates at that time

Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not.

To paint Aisha as a victim is completely at odds with her persona. She was certainly no wallflower. She emerged riding a camel to lead the troops. She was known for her assertive temperament and mischievous sense of humor – with Muhammad sometimes bearing the brunt of the jokes. During his lifetime, he established her authority by telling Muslims to consult her in his absence; after his death, she went to be become one of the most prolific and distinguished scholars of her time you demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.

[KenRU]

Just to be clear, I am responding on my own behalf, and not Marco's. He is more than capable for speaking (eloquently I might add) on his own.

[Replying to post 26 by KenRU]

[Replying to post 27 by marco]

In Islam and in particular in Arabic adultery = ( Premarital sex + Extramarital sex )

Ok, fair point, but considering we are conversing in English, the definitions you provide are wrong. Perhaps you should use "Premarital Sex" if it more accurately reflects your position?

Being adultery moral or immoral some thing was based on religion on first place , a simple example is if your girlfriend cheats on you would you call he adulterous ?

First, definitions have no bearing on right or wrong. Adultery being defined as a married person having sex with someone other than their spouse in no way condones cheating on your girlfriend.

Second, if my girlfriend cheated on me, I would NOT call her adulterous (as it would be inaccurate). What I would call her is history.

According to your definition she is ok to do so and she is not adulterous according to my definition you 3 are adulterous

Where do you think the word "adultery" says anything about what is ok and not ok? You're making things up now.

The miss-conception of adultery can lead to allowing sex between brothers and sisters now marco since you believe in nothing tell me how moral is that ?

What misconception? You are making no sense. Sex between biological family members is called incest and that is not part of this conversation. This is about marriage and sex with children.

I would hate to think you derive all of your morals based upon the definition of one word.

According to my religion once a child physically mature he/she is a responsible person and can be judged for what he is doing being mature early or late differ from person to another we don't have that massive amount of girls that become mature at the age of 9 they are very few yet you argue for morality of man to marry a "teen "

Stop saying teen as if a 13 year old is the same as a 19 year old. You do understand that there is a difference (massive in most cases) between them right?

I've been coaching youth sports now since my son was 5 (he is now 13). None, I repeat, NONE of the kids I have ever coached had the maturity to marry let alone have sex. And this falls right in line with what biology and psychology tells us about children and their development - that it is still progressing and still immature.

Check out this article on "Decision-making is Still a Work in Progress for Teenagers": http://brainconnection.brainhq.com/2013 ... teenagers/

Key passages:

The researchers found that when processing emotions, adults have greater activity in their frontal lobes than do teenagers. Adults also have lower activity in their amygdala than teenagers. In fact, as teenagers age into adulthood, the overall focus of brain activity seems to shift from the amygdala to the frontal lobes.

The frontal lobes of the brain have been implicated in behavioral inhibition, the ability to control emotions and impulses. The frontal lobes are also thought to be the place where decisions about right and wrong, as well as cause-effect relationships are processed. In contrast, the amygdala is part of the limbic system of the brain and is involved in instinctive “gut� reactions, including “fight or flight� responses. Lower activity in the frontal lobe could lead to poor control over behavior and emotions, while an overactive amygdala may be associated with high levels of emotional arousal and reactionary decision-making.

I don't know why you change definitions to prove your point a child is not at all cases same as teen if you mix both then you are making a double standard

I made no double standard, nor did I see Marco make one. But you are certainly making a mistake to think that a 19 year old is the same biologically and emotionally as a 13 year old. And that is a tragically poor mistake to make.

In seventh-century Arabia, adulthood was defined as the onset of puberty. (This much is true, and was also the case in Europe: five centuries after Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, 44-year-old King John of England married 12-year-old Isabella of Angoulême.) Interestingly, of the many criticisms of Muhammad made at the time by his opponents, none focused on Aisha's age at marriage can you tell me why ?

First off, puberty in no way signifies (accurately) when adulthood begins. Hopefully, you can agree with that? And this furthers the point that 7th Century Arabia was woefully ignorant on when maturity begins for a human being.

To answer your question: Because males at that time period were barbaric, ignorant, etc? You really want to get your moral basis from 7th century Arabia??????

According to this perspective, Aisha may have been young, but she was not younger than was the norm at the time.

This does not make it right. It does not make it un-cruel. It does not (in any way shape or form) mean we should do it now. And it does not alter the fact that science says that a child that age is ill-prepared BIOLOGICALLY to make good decisions.

In Islam, the hadith literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19 it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was non had record of births all were estimates at that time

Well now you're backpedalling. You've just been spending many posts defending the earliest of ages. And now, you claim it may have been wrong. Either way, 9 is still way too young. Period.

Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults, and that a woman has the right to choose her own spouse. As the living embodiment of Islam, Muhammad's actions reflect the Qur'an's teachings on marriage, even if the actions of some Muslim regimes and individuals do not.

Awesome. 9 year olds should not be considered consenting adults.

To paint Aisha as a victim is completely at odds with her persona.

Irrelevant. She is 9. Biologically, her brain is not fully developed.


-all the best

[marco]

In Islam, the haditsuppose Aisha was 19.h literature (sayings of the prophet) is considered secondary to the Qur'an. While the Qur'an is considered to be the verbatim word of God, the hadiths were transmitted over time through a rigorous but not infallible methodology. Taking all known accounts and records of Aisha's age at marriage, estimates of her age range from nine to 19 it is impossible to know with any certainty how old Aisha was non had record of births all were estimates at that time

This is amusing. You spend time explaining why child marriage is fine; you explain that puberty makes a child a teenager; now you think we should suppose Aisha was 19! Make up your mind?

The grown up MAN Muhammad saw a SIX YEAR OLD baby and wanted to marry her. He asked ALLAH when he could have sex with the child and he did so when she was NINE. A BAD EXAMPLE - for if some devout person did today what Muhamad did, then they would go to prison. A PROPHET' should be above the low morality of his time.


YOU SAY:

"Qur'an says about marriage: that it is valid only between consenting adults"

Then a six-year-old could not consent. You are trying to defend the indefensible.

Incidentally you go on about adultery - it is just misbehaviour. Does it merit death, do you think?