loving your enemy

[truelight Mike]

Is there any higher teaching than the teaching of Jesus to love one's enemy?

[truelight Mike]

[Replying to post 19 by ttruscott]

I think I agree with your God's holiness , our free will statement.

I think the command to love is a command for action
Not just a feeling

That is the way of God ...to love our neighbor
That is everyone's call and responsibility
Including mine

[Divine Insight]

Noted, however, personal or not, it would be nice if you could refrain from straw man arguments.

I made absolutely no straw man arguments at all. To the contrary, your total refusal to address the points I made, and your complete avoidance of them was totally straw man.

[Divine Insight]

Ok I think Jesus did fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Its done. He did come to change things. He actually raised the standard.

If he raised the standards that constitutes a change.

Also, Jesus could not have "fulfilled" the laws of the Prophets. Did Jesus go around stoning all the sinners to death? If not, then he most certainly did not fulfill the laws of the prophets.

He would have also had to have stoned to death everyone who was preaching of any God's other than Yahweh. So unless Jesus was running around stoning the pagans to death he could hardly have been said to have fulfilled the laws of the prophets.

Besides it really make no sense to speak of someone fulfilling a law. All Jesus could possibly have done was fulfill prophesy, but he clearly failed to do that entirely.

Just a few verses past yours in Matt 5 He starts to say "you have heard... but I tell you..."
When they asked Him about divorcing a wife He said, " it was because of the hardness of your hearts that Moses wrote you this precept but in the beginning it was not so therefore what God has joined together let no man separate."

That's totally irrelevant to the points I had previously made.

He did come to call us to righteousness and then gave us a living example!

Where is this living example? Surely not Jesus himself. Jesus never did much of anything. He never married, never had children, and all he did was sit around slandering the Chief Priest of God's Temple. That's hardly an example of righteous behavior.

Asking questions is one thing but I'm afraid we can be so doubtful and suspicious that the Truth could walk right passed us and we might not even be able to see it. Myself included

What truth are you talking about?

If treating people with respect and dignity is the truth we are supposed to learn, then I learned that truth very early in life. In fact, I'm not even sure if I learned it, or it was just a natural part of my nature.

The problem with all this hype about religion, and Christianity, is that it seems to assume that every human is greedy, self-centered, and doesn't care about anyone else.

That's a huge problem. Is this what Christians are like?

It seems to me that they must be like this if they think that everyone is selfish, greedy and needs to learn a lesson.

From my perspective that's clearly not who I am, not was it ever who I was. And I know a lot of other people who exhibit similar natural characteristics.

This would make Jesus' message to humanity kind of silly.

Moreover, it seems to me that anyone who actually needs to be told to behave nicely toward other people already has serious issues.

Do you really need Jesus to tell you to care about other people?

[bluethread]

Noted, however, personal or not, it would be nice if you could refrain from straw man arguments.

I made absolutely no straw man arguments at all. To the contrary, your total refusal to address the points I made, and your complete avoidance of them was totally straw man.

I did address them, every one. The fact that I did not accept the tortured wording of your questions does not mean they were not answered.

Let's try again more directly.

bluethread wrote:

1. Judge your neighbor fairly.

Do you consider your neighbor's to be your "enemies"?

No and the principle still applies, even if I did.

bluethread wrote:

2. Do not go about spreading slander.

Most likely you will have made yourself into the enemy of someone else if you have done that. So this advice sounds more alone the lines of suggesting to not become the enemy of someone else rather than loving your enemies.

Slander can make someone an enemy. However, that is not suggesting that one not become an enemy. One could become an enemy for doing good.

3. Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart.

What about people who aren't a fellow Israelite? Are Israelis allowed to hate non-Israelis?

The term is neighbor, so as with 1. the principle still applies

bluethread wrote:

4. Rebuke your neighbor frankly.

Is this opposed to secretly making them an enemy in your mind without even telling them. So in other words, if you tell them right out that you don't like what they do, then that doesn't count as making them your enemy?

And once again, do you think of your neighbors as your enemies?

No, as opposed to him presuming that you approve of his behavior. No, that counts as warning them of danger. Once again, I do not think my neighbors are my enemies.

bluethread wrote:

5. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge.

In other words, don't make enemies. As I said in post #2. And if you don't make enemies then you won't need to worry about having to love them.

No, it is possible seek revenge or bear grudge against anybody. As with post #2, one can become your enemy, Because you did the right thing. One need not worry about loving anybody.

bluethread wrote:

In short, provide due process and don't let anyone live in your head rent free.

So providing "due process" amounts to loving your enemies? As long as we report them to the proper authorities and are open about personally rebuking them, we are loving our enemies?

No, it is part of loving one's enemies. Also, don't bear a grudge or hatred in one's heart.

Apparently this is how Christians and claim to love gays. They simply make it illegal to be gay, openly rebuke the gays, then use laws to discriminate against gays in the workplace and marketplace, and then fight for anti-gay laws to further justify rebuking them even more harshly.

Yep, that sounds real "Christian" alright.

I do not know how it can be illegal to "be gay". If one believes that homosexual behavior is harmful, then that would make sense. That is how non-Christians also deal with things that they think are harmful. However, the purpose isn't to justify harsher rebukes.

Love your enemy by getting the law on your side so you can openly rebuke and hate them legally.

No, that is not correct. Are those answers straight forward enough?

[Divine Insight]

Let's try again more directly.

bluethread wrote:

1. Judge your neighbor fairly.

Do you consider your neighbor's to be your "enemies"?

No and the principle still applies, even if I did.

So did you then bring up the concept of judging your neighbor fairly in a thread that is about "loving your enemy"?

How could the principle still apply if you don't even consider your neighbor to be your enemy?

You are the one who is creating straw men.

bluethread wrote:

2. Do not go about spreading slander.

Most likely you will have made yourself into the enemy of someone else if you have done that. So this advice sounds more alone the lines of suggesting to not become the enemy of someone else rather than loving your enemies.

Slander can make someone an enemy. However, that is not suggesting that one not become an enemy. One could become an enemy for doing good.

Again what doe this have to do with "loving your enemy"?

First off, slander is defined as making false statements about someone's character in an effort to damage their reputation. Therefore if you are spreading slander you are actually bearing false witness against other people.

You might be seen as "The enemy" in the eyes of those you are slandering if you were to do that.

So I still don't see what this has to do with loving your enemy. Your enemy would be the one who is bearing false witness against you.

3. Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart.

What about people who aren't a fellow Israelite? Are Israelis allowed to hate non-Israelis?

The term is neighbor, so as with 1. the principle still applies

And once again, are you considering your neighbors to be your enemy?

And if not, then what the heck are you even talking about?

This thread is about loving your enemies, not about considering your neighbors to be your enemies.

bluethread wrote:

4. Rebuke your neighbor frankly.

Is this opposed to secretly making them an enemy in your mind without even telling them. So in other words, if you tell them right out that you don't like what they do, then that doesn't count as making them your enemy?

And once again, do you think of your neighbors as your enemies?

No, as opposed to him presuming that you approve of his behavior. No, that counts as warning them of danger. Once again, I do not think my neighbors are my enemies.

If you don't think your neighbors are your enemies then why do you keep bringing up how you might treat your neighbors in a thread on "Loving Your Enemy".

If you warn your neighbor of danger does this make your neighbor your enemy?

If so, how so?

bluethread wrote:

5. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge.

In other words, don't make enemies. As I said in post #2. And if you don't make enemies then you won't need to worry about having to love them.

No, it is possible seek revenge or bear grudge against anybody. As with post #2, one can become your enemy, Because you did the right thing. One need not worry about loving anybody.

You seem to be continually evading the actual topic of the thread which is "Loving Your Enemy".

If you aren't talking about loving your enemies then you are the one who is tossing out a bunch of straw men.

bluethread wrote:

In short, provide due process and don't let anyone live in your head rent free.

So providing "due process" amounts to loving your enemies? As long as we report them to the proper authorities and are open about personally rebuking them, we are loving our enemies?

No, it is part of loving one's enemies. Also, don't bear a grudge or hatred in one's heart.[/quote]

So then you're saying that turning people into the authorities when they break the laws is to love them.

In that case then Judas must have loved Jesus quite a bit.

Apparently this is how Christians and claim to love gays. They simply make it illegal to be gay, openly rebuke the gays, then use laws to discriminate against gays in the workplace and marketplace, and then fight for anti-gay laws to further justify rebuking them even more harshly.

Yep, that sounds real "Christian" alright.

I do not know how it can be illegal to "be gay". If one believes that homosexual behavior is harmful, then that would make sense. That is how non-Christians also deal with things that they think are harmful. However, the purpose isn't to justify harsher rebukes.

It should be easy for a Christian to see how being gay can easily be made "illegal". In fact, according to them this is precisely what their God has commanded. Are you aware that there are verses in the Bible where God commands that people who have committed homosexual activity are to be stoned to death?

I would say that's definitely a way to make "being gay" illegal. Some Christian fundamentalists have actually suggested that gays should executed precisely because the God of the Bible has commanded this to be done.

ISIS is currently throwing gay people off the roofs of high-rise building to kill them in the name of this God.

So apparently as far as ISIS is concerned, 'being gay" is illegal if they have any say in the matter.

Love your enemy by getting the law on your side so you can openly rebuke and hate them legally.

No, that is not correct. Are those answers straight forward enough?

Well that sure looks like what you have already supported. Proclaiming that "being gay" is harmful and therefore should be dealt with as a danger to society is one way to "hate on gays" by simply claiming that the law is on your side. Even if it's only the law of an ancient God myth.

Clearly the secular laws are trying hard to get Christians to stop hating on gays.

So no, I don't see where you have justified your straw men.

Also, are gays your "enemy"?

Again this thread is about "loving your enemy".

So if you're going to bring up your neighbors and/or rebuking gays, then it seems to me that it's only fair that we assume you view those people as your enemy.

Otherwise why bring them up in this thread that's about loving your enemies

[truelight Mike]

[Replying to post 23 by Divine Insight]

Well I think I'll stop arguing with you. I hope you

[bluethread]

Let's try again more directly.

bluethread wrote:

1. Judge your neighbor fairly.

Do you consider your neighbor's to be your "enemies"?

No and the principle still applies, even if I did.

So did you then bring up the concept of judging your neighbor fairly in a thread that is about "loving your enemy"?

How could the principle still apply if you don't even consider your neighbor to be your enemy?

You are the one who is creating straw men.

What part of "even if I did" do you not understand?

bluethread wrote:

2. Do not go about spreading slander.

Most likely you will have made yourself into the enemy of someone else if you have done that. So this advice sounds more alone the lines of suggesting to not become the enemy of someone else rather than loving your enemies.

Slander can make someone an enemy. However, that is not suggesting that one not become an enemy. One could become an enemy for doing good.

Again what doe this have to do with "loving your enemy"?

First off, slander is defined as making false statements about someone's character in an effort to damage their reputation. Therefore if you are spreading slander you are actually bearing false witness against other people.

You might be seen as "The enemy" in the eyes of those you are slandering if you were to do that.

So I still don't see what this has to do with loving your enemy. Your enemy would be the one who is bearing false witness against you.

Yes, but you might be seen as an enemy for some other reason. You're the one that suggested that the commandment means one should not have enemies. There is nothing wrong with having enemies. It just does not excuse slander. That is the point.

3. Do not hate a fellow Israelite in your heart.

What about people who aren't a fellow Israelite? Are Israelis allowed to hate non-Israelis?

The term is neighbor, so as with 1. the principle still applies

And once again, are you considering your neighbors to be your enemy?

And if not, then what the heck are you even talking about?

This thread is about loving your enemies, not about considering your neighbors to be your enemies.

Again, what part of the principle still applies don't you understand. Are you wanting to hate your enemies? Go head, it's your life to ruin.

bluethread wrote:

4. Rebuke your neighbor frankly.

Is this opposed to secretly making them an enemy in your mind without even telling them. So in other words, if you tell them right out that you don't like what they do, then that doesn't count as making them your enemy?

And once again, do you think of your neighbors as your enemies?

No, as opposed to him presuming that you approve of his behavior. No, that counts as warning them of danger. Once again, I do not think my neighbors are my enemies.

If you don't think your neighbors are your enemies then why do you keep bringing up how you might treat your neighbors in a thread on "Loving Your Enemy".

If you warn your neighbor of danger does this make your neighbor your enemy?

If so, how so?

No, but if he were my enemy, it might make him my friend, should he take my advise.

bluethread wrote:

5. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge.

In other words, don't make enemies. As I said in post #2. And if you don't make enemies then you won't need to worry about having to love them.

No, it is possible seek revenge or bear grudge against anybody. As with post #2, one can become your enemy, Because you did the right thing. One need not worry about loving anybody.

You seem to be continually evading the actual topic of the thread which is "Loving Your Enemy".

If you aren't talking about loving your enemies then you are the one who is tossing out a bunch of straw men.

Ok, I have an enemy and when he is willing to listen to me, I do these things. So, what is your point.

bluethread wrote:

In short, provide due process and don't let anyone live in your head rent free.

So providing "due process" amounts to loving your enemies? As long as we report them to the proper authorities and are open about personally rebuking them, we are loving our enemies?

No, it is part of loving one's enemies. Also, don't bear a grudge or hatred in one's heart.

So then you're saying that turning people into the authorities when they break the laws is to love them.

In that case then Judas must have loved Jesus quite a bit.

He may have thought so. In fact, the writers of JC Superstar seemed to have that view.

Apparently this is how Christians and claim to love gays. They simply make it illegal to be gay, openly rebuke the gays, then use laws to discriminate against gays in the workplace and marketplace, and then fight for anti-gay laws to further justify rebuking them even more harshly.

Yep, that sounds real "Christian" alright.

I do not know how it can be illegal to "be gay". If one believes that homosexual behavior is harmful, then that would make sense. That is how non-Christians also deal with things that they think are harmful. However, the purpose isn't to justify harsher rebukes.

It should be easy for a Christian to see how being gay can easily be made "illegal". In fact, according to them this is precisely what their God has commanded. Are you aware that there are verses in the Bible where God commands that people who have committed homosexual activity are to be stoned to death?

Ah, so gay is an activity and not a gender identity? That is not what the LGBTQWXYZ crowd claims.

I would say that's definitely a way to make "being gay" illegal. Some Christian fundamentalists have actually suggested that gays should executed precisely because the God of the Bible has commanded this to be done.

Could it be that they believe that activity is harmful?

ISIS is currently throwing gay people off the roofs of high-rise building to kill them in the name of this God.

So apparently as far as ISIS is concerned, 'being gay" is illegal if they have any say in the matter.

If gay is a gender identity and not an activity, how do they know?

Love your enemy by getting the law on your side so you can openly rebuke and hate them legally.

No, that is not correct. Are those answers straight forward enough?

Well that sure looks like what you have already supported. Proclaiming that "being gay" is harmful and therefore should be dealt with as a danger to society is one way to "hate on gays" by simply claiming that the law is on your side. Even if it's only the law of an ancient God myth.

Where did I say the things you quote? When did I ever use the phrase "hate on gays"?

Clearly the secular laws are trying hard to get Christians to stop hating on gays.

So no, I don't see where you have justified your straw men.

Also, are gays your "enemy"?

Again this thread is about "loving your enemy".

So if you're going to bring up your neighbors and/or rebuking gays, then it seems to me that it's only fair that we assume you view those people as your enemy.

Otherwise why bring them up in this thread that's about loving your enemies

I didn't bring up gays you did.

[Divine Insight]

Could it be that they believe that activity is harmful?

Is that how you define your enemies?

Anyone who does any activity that you deem to be harmful is automatically your enemy?

I think I already covered this in post #2. Instead of defining people as your enemy and then trying to justify loving them by opposing them, it might be wise to just not brand them as your enemy in the first place.

This keeps coming back to the topic of the thread. It's pointless to even talk about "loving your enemies" until you can define precisely who your enemies are.

Only then can you move forward to addressing what you might do to "love them".

In fact, this is precisely why I have a huge problem with Jesus teaching that we should love our enemies. The very first thought that comes into my mind is, "Does Jesus expect us to have enemies? And if so, shouldn't he have elaborated on that concept a bit more?"

[bluethread]

Could it be that they believe that activity is harmful?

Is that how you define your enemies?

Anyone who does any activity that you deem to be harmful is automatically your enemy?

No, those who oppose me are my enemies. Some times my friends are my enemies, but I do not hate them for it.

I think I already covered this in post #2. Instead of defining people as your enemy and then trying to justify loving them by opposing them, it might be wise to just not brand them as your enemy in the first place.

This keeps coming back to the topic of the thread. It's pointless to even talk about "loving your enemies" until you can define precisely who your enemies are.

Only then can you move forward to addressing what you might do to "love them".

In fact, this is precisely why I have a huge problem with Jesus teaching that we should love our enemies. The very first thought that comes into my mind is, "Does Jesus expect us to have enemies? And if so, shouldn't he have elaborated on that concept a bit more?"

He did. I don't know why I didn't think of this before, that is exactly what He was addressing in the passage in question. (Mt.5:43) "Ye have heard that it hath been said , Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy." That is your question, is it not? Well Yeshua says, (Mt. 5:44) "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" It doesn't matter who one's enemies are, the way to love them is to judge them fairly, do not slander or hate them, but rebuke them frankly, and then do not seek revenge or bear a grudge. Show them how to receive Adonai's blessings and pray for them. Now the specifics of the rebuke, instruction and prayer will change depending on the nature of the difference,but the method is the same.

[Divine Insight]

He did. I don't know why I didn't think of this before, that is exactly what He was addressing in the passage in question. (Mt.5:43) "Ye have heard that it hath been said , Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy." That is your question, is it not? Well Yeshua says, (Mt. 5:44) "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" It doesn't matter who one's enemies are, the way to love them is to judge them fairly, do not slander or hate them, but rebuke them frankly, and then do not seek revenge or bear a grudge. Show them how to receive Adonai's blessings and pray for them. Now the specifics of the rebuke, instruction and prayer will change depending on the nature of the difference,but the method is the same.

In that case, then it should be extremely easy to "love your enemies" if that is all this means.

In fact, this brings into question the very question that was asked in the OP:

Is there any higher teaching than the teaching of Jesus to love one's enemy?

I don't see where it would be a very high teaching at all if all it means is to rebuke them frankly instead of getting all nasty about reacting to them in stupid ways.

If that's what it means to "love your enemy" then I would suggest that this is nothing more than common sense that any mature intelligent person should have.

Who was Jesus teaching? A bunch of morons?

He must have been if he had to teach them such obvious common sense wisdom as this.

And why even refer to this as "loving your enemy", that seems to be very poor wording to teach this type of common sense approach to dealing with problems.

To do anything short of what you had suggested would only result in making the problem worse. Surely no sane intelligent person would even want to do that.

Why should any reasonable person think this is such a great teaching by Jesus?

Again, I ask, who was Jesus teaching? A bunch of morons?