Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, not sacrifice.

[tam]

May you all have peace!


Christ is written to have said the words in the title of this thread, quoting from Hosea 6:6 on what His Father desires of us, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice." (NIV)

In Matthew, He also said, "IF you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice', you would not have condemned the innocent."

His words are in response to pharisees who are sitting in judgment of the sinners, and of the disciples who were doing what was unlawful.


In light of the above (and more below) and in light of all the judgment and condemnation surrounding the issue of homosexuality, I have to ask - have we YET learned what this means: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" ?


How many Christians out there point the finger at gay people, and claim that they are unacceptable? Or that one can be gay, or one can be Christian (as if it is their call to make), but not both?


What... who... give us the right to say something like that? To override Christ Himself who said there is only one unforgivable sin, and homosexuality is not that sin. Christ, who never said a word about homosexuality, but who spoke out against divorce, adultery, hypocrisy, and had quite a lot to say about judging others.


I think it is a red herring (for someone who claims to be a christian) to focus upon whether or not homosexuality is a choice. What does it matter? Truly? Even IF homosexuality is a sin (and I am not saying it is, and I am certainly not saying that it is a choice - unless I am willing to call someone who has said they have no choice a liar - leaving myself open to being guilty not only of judging but also of bearing false witness), that does not mean that a gay person is unacceptable to Christ. That does not mean that a gay person cannot seek Christ, love Christ... be loved AND chosen in return BY Christ. That does not mean that a gay person cannot know Christ. Or follow Christ, or keep His commands.

And what is the promise that Christ made?

"If ANYONE loves me, they will keep my word. My father will love them, and we will come and make our home with them."


Even IF homosexuality is a sin - love covers a multitude of transgressions. A gay person can (and does) love, give to the poor, feed the hungry, forgive (and they probably have more opportunities than most TO forgive, considering how they have been persecuted, beaten - verbal or physical - killed, mocked, bullied, threatened with hell, shunned by loved ones, etc, etc.).


I know that not everyone thinks or claims that a gay person cannot be a Christian, anointed by holy spirit, part of the Body of Christ, His Bride. But some/many do think that.

Who among us has the right to call unclean what Christ has made clean? Do we think His blood so weak... His sacrifice so meaningless... that He cannot cover over any sin (save the ONE unforgivable sin)?



Mercy and love are the most important matters of the law. Love is the law that Christ left us with - love one another as He loved us.

Where is the love in telling someone else that they are unacceptable?

Where is the love in telling someone else that they are lying (or deluded) when they say that they cannot change their sexual orientation, even though they have tried?

Where is the love in preventing the 'little children' from coming to Christ? Which is exactly what we do if/when we tell others that they are too 'bad' a sinner to belong to Christ.

Where is the love in beating someone down - even to the point where they commit or attempt suicide - just because of your understanding of a law, which may or may not be correct - as the pharisees were not correct? When in doing so you have to ignore the more important matters of the law: mercy and love?


The woman caught in adultery - the law said she should be stoned. Christ forgave her. Mercy over sacrifice. And that was a sin that He spoke about.

The pharisees and teachers of the law who used the law to condemn others - they were the ones who Christ told to go and learn what it means that God desires mercy, not sacrifice. That if they knew what that meant, they would not have condemned the innocent.


Which brings me to another point: Do you know, for sure, that a gay person has a choice in his sexual orientation? Do you know, for sure, that it is something that can be changed?

Because if it is not a choice, if it is inherent, if it cannot be changed... then are you not condemning the innocent?


Are we stuck on the letter of the law and what we think that means... using the law to judge and condemn others (all the while avoiding the mirror)? Or have we learned what it means, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice," so that we do not condemn the innocent?


**

Some additional questions:

Considering that Christ said not one word about it, does anyone truly think that the sexual orientation of another person is worthy of so much condemnation, so much focus, so much judging?

Do you hold yourself to the same standard when it comes to any other sin? If not, and if you judge people for being homosexual (and acting upon it), isn't that hypocrisy?

Maybe it is time to stop judging people for what we think is unlawful - and move past the letter of the law - to the spirit of the law: love, mercy, compassion.


***

I am not stating that homosexuality is a sin. The spirit that is given to me from Christ protests at even the thought of asking Him that question - because it is not my business. Not only that but:

Being homosexual does not prevent a person from showing mercy… and so being shown mercy. Being homosexual does not prevent a person from forgiving and so being forgiven. Being homosexual does not prevent a person from ‘not judging’ and so not BEING judged. And being homosexual does not prevent a person from being perfect as their Father in heaven is perfect: By loving their friends AND their enemies. (those who set themselves up to be their enemies)

These things I have learned from my Lord.


So what concern is someone else's sexual orientation of mine?



I am not going to sit here and pretend that I have never thought the things that I have written against above. I once did think them. But I did not learn them from Christ. I learned those things from my personal interpretation of the bible (from what little I knew of what is written) from the media on christian opinion, and from what little I knew from religion. And I was wrong.

And while I never take part in debates or even discussions on homosexuality, there are so many threads on that issue... and in one of them, I read someone's post who is gay, and there was so much honesty and also pain - well, I was compelled to write this.



May you all have peace,
your servant, and a slave of Christ,
tammy (who was not sure where to put this thread, so this might not be the right place. Please don't move this thread to the holy huddle room if possible. I would like anyone to be able to comment who wants to comment. If it must be moved, then perhaps that rant sub-section?)

[OpenYourEyes]

Found another relevant passage15[/b]..What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

Whether we are under grace, mercy, whatever you want to call it we are still not to sin unrepentantly.

Personally, ive never aporoached a gay person or anyone for that matter to call them a sinner. I would only do that if i was asked about my beliefs like on this forum, for instance. What if a gay person asked me if theyre lifestyle is a sin? Should i just dodge the question and say God loves you?

To accept Christ does not take knowing all of the moral laws or beating down people with it, but by accepting Christ the Law will become part of your nature, written on your heart, through the Holy Spirit. The expression of that will be you not sinning and new Christians grow into that as they mature, spiritually.

The love thst you bring up leaves out what effects we should expect to find when someone claims to love God.

Here's a good passage that factors in the OLD law and New Law:
1 John 3:4-6
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

And Jesus did not only forgive the adulterous woman. He also told her go and sin no more!

[tam]

I almost did it. I almost got sucked into debating homosexuality being a sin or not. But there are many other threads where the focus is upon gay people and their sexuality. This thread is about those who are judging them, or shunning them, or telling them that they cannot be gay and Christian, that Christ does not accept them, that they are going to 'roast in hell'.

This thread is not about THEM. This thread is about those judging them. This thread is about looking in the mirror. Something that the law was always meant to BE: a mirror; not a pointing finger.



Some questions from the OP:

How many Christians out there point the finger at gay people, and claim that they are unacceptable? Or that one can be gay, or one can be Christian (as if it is their call to make), but not both?

What... who... give us the right to say something like that? To override Christ Himself who said there is only one unforgivable sin, and homosexuality is not that sin. Christ, who never said a word about homosexuality, but who spoke out against divorce, adultery, hypocrisy, and had quite a lot to say about judging others.

Where is the love in telling someone else that they are lying (or deluded) when they say that they cannot change their sexual orientation, even though they have tried?

Where is the love in preventing the 'little children' from coming to Christ? Which is exactly what we do if/when we tell others that they are too 'bad' a sinner to belong to Christ.

Which brings me to another point: Do you know, for sure, that a gay person has a choice in his sexual orientation? Do you know, for sure, that it is something that can be changed?

Because if it is not a choice, if it is inherent, if it cannot be changed... then are you not condemning the innocent?

Considering that Christ said not one word about it, does anyone truly think that the sexual orientation of another person is worthy of so much condemnation, so much focus, so much judging?

Do you hold yourself to the same standard when it comes to any other sin? If not, and if you judge people for being homosexual (and acting upon it), isn't that hypocrisy?

***

OpenYourEyes wrote:

Yes gays are often mistreated but that doesnt mean we give them or anyone else only the feel-good passages and selectively ignore the rest.

Isn't 'mistreated' a bit of an understatement? Gays have been (and are) murdered, mocked, bullied, beaten, executed, threatened with hell, told that God hates them, shunned, stoned, called abomination; hated by their own blood; thrown out of 'synagogues', told they are unacceptable to Christ due to something that they had no choice in; they have turned to drugs and alcohol due to the utter shame and self-contempt and fear instilled in them; lived a lie and committed suicide. Not just adults but also children... as young as elementary school children for that matter.


And there is this that my Lord reminds me of:


"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?

Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter-- when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Then your light will break forth like the dawn, and your healing will quickly appear; then your righteousness will go before you, and the glory of the LORD will be your rear guard.

Then you will call, and the LORD will answer; you will cry for help, and he will say: Here am I. "If you do away with the yoke of oppression, with the pointing finger and malicious talk,

and if you spend yourselves in behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness, and your night will become like the noonday.



May you have peace, and ears to hear if you wish them, so that you too may hear the truth from Christ Himself- whatever that truth may be - on this or any other matter,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OpenYourEyes]

I almost did it. I almost got sucked into debating homosexuality being a sin or not. But there are many other threads where the focus is upon gay people and their sexuality. This thread is about those who are judging them, or shunning them, or telling them that they cannot be gay and Christian, that Christ does not accept them, that they are going to 'roast in hell'.

This thread is not about THEM. This thread is about those judging them. This thread is about looking in the mirror. Something that the law was always meant to BE: a mirror; not a pointing finger.

So we can not judge if i understand your reasoning, right? Are you aware that this is impractical if you applied that to everything in life? You can't call adultery wrong then, right?

Lets put aside homosexuality, and use adultery. If a man continually cheats on his wife, doesnt care about it, says its not a sin, tells you not to judge, and then tries to preach to you and influence others Christians that its okay, would that be all good for you? No? So why the double standard?

And here is why i dont consider unrepentant homosexuals as being Christisn:

1 Corinthians 5:12-1312
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

There ya go, Tams. : )

[tam]

I almost did it. I almost got sucked into debating homosexuality being a sin or not. But there are many other threads where the focus is upon gay people and their sexuality. This thread is about those who are judging them, or shunning them, or telling them that they cannot be gay and Christian, that Christ does not accept them, that they are going to 'roast in hell'.

This thread is not about THEM. This thread is about those judging them. This thread is about looking in the mirror. Something that the law was always meant to BE: a mirror; not a pointing finger.

So we can not judge if i understand your reasoning, right? Are you aware that this is impractical if you applied that to everything in life? You can't call adultery wrong then, right?

Lets put aside homosexuality, and use adultery. If a man continually cheats on his wife, doesnt care about it, says its not a sin, tells you not to judge, and then tries to preach to you and influence others Christians that its okay, would that be all good for you? No? So why the double standard?

And here is why i dont consider unrepentant homosexuals as being Christisn:

1 Corinthians 5:12-1312
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

There ya go, Tams. : )

First... calling a thief a thief is not judging. It is a statement of truth (as long as that one IS a thief, mind you; otherwise it is bearing false witness). Telling a thief that they deserve to go to hell, or that they will go to hell, or that God hates them, or telling them that they cannot be Christian, etc, etc - is judging, as well as a lie, as well as bearing false witness against God (even if in ignorance... because God roasts no one in hell; though Christendom does like to espouse that doctrine).


Second,

1 Corinthians 5:12-1312
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

Please note that Paul had to recant his command here in his third letter to the Corinthians (which we record as his second letter, but it is really his third. 1 Corinthians is actually his second letter; he states that himself in the letter when he says 'this is the second time I am writing to you').

Paul had to recant because Paul was wrong. What Paul wrote and commanded the others to do in that congregation was not in keeping with what Christ taught, and Paul caused a lot of confusion with what he told them to do.

(Paul did not just receive all truth through some sort of osmosis when Christ appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Paul had to LEARN. Just as the apostles also had to learn, and that did not happen all at once. Remember Paul was a former Pharisee, very zealous for the law, and the 'wicked person' being spoken of here had broken one of the levitical laws about who you could have sex with.)

***

Christ said DO NOT judge. Paul said DO judge - even though he learned as attested by his words elsewhere not to judge. So who should you believe? Who should you obey?

Well, who do you love more? Paul? Or Christ? Because we obey the ones we love MOST. Hence the reason that those who are in Christ, who are to be His Bride, and rule in HIS Kingdom must love Him most.


If the words aren't enough, ask yourself (or better yet ask Christ):

Who did Christ shun? Who did He expel? Those who belonged to Him WERE expelled - they did not do the expelling - He even warned that the time was coming they would be thrown out of synagogues, and that whoever did that 'expelling' would think that they were offering a sacred service to God.


Because it doesn't matter what I say, or what Paul says, or what the Pope says, or what reverends and priests and books and scholars and theologians say. For a Christian, the only teachings and commands that should matter are those that Christ taught - by what He spoke, and by what He did. Word and deed.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 24 by tam]

First... calling a thief a thief is not judging. It is a statement of truth (as long as that one IS a thief, mind you; otherwise it is bearing false witness). Telling a thief that they deserve to go to hell, or that they will go to hell, or that God hates them, or telling them that they cannot be Christian, etc, etc - is judging, as well as a lie, as well as bearing false witness against God (even if in ignorance... because God roasts no one in hell; though Christendom does like to espouse that doctrine).

What I hear you saying, Tam, is that noting a person is homosexual is not a judgment in itself -- that is perfectly clear. It's no more a judgment than saying a person has red hair or is a Christian.

What you are teasing apart in people's minds is the distinction between naming/recognizing, and opinionating about what is named/recognized.

I think that is a subtle but powerful distinction that is easily overlooked due to the emotional power that is evoked in judging. In judging, a person assigns a value to the other person, by virtue of recognition. It's a natural process, but it isn't the SAME process. For instance, I note the transgender nephew of mine, and thus follows all I've ever known about him, and then naturally associate outward in increasing 'circles' of knowledge, opinion, meaning, cultural indoctrination (which helplessly happens to all without exception). I do not go from 'transgender' to 'sin' in my mind.

The human brain has uncountable automatic processes that have been selected for over the course of our development as a species. One rather implacable one is the 'short cuts' we take in discernment of right and wrong, good or bad. We don't realize we've taken short cuts when homosexuality is Gorilla-glued to notions of sinfulness and disgust. The truth is, there is a gap between the naming and the opining, and Jesus notably said to recognize that gap and stop before the opining part.

I see that your posts have been received with disagreement on behalf of some Christian forum members.

As an outsider looking in, unfettered by devotion to this belief system, the admonition to not judge is not well understood, not well 'unpacked' into a personal understanding for many Christians by evidence of their behavior toward the LGBTQI groups and individuals.

In my fifty years of life, I'd go so far as to say this admonition of Jesus is not well understood at all.

What surprises me, and concerns me a great deal, is that you so plainly illustrate the mechanism of judgment, using scripture, and still meet with open disagreement. It has me wondering what is the 'secondary gain', as it were, for stubbornly maintaining an unscriptural judgmentalism.

Primary and secondary gain are the psychological motivators for a person's behavior. The 'secondary gain' component is usually unknown to the person attempting to reap secondary gain benefits. If secondary gain motivations are pointed out, it's likely the person will deny them outright, and struggle to maintain them regardless of facts to the contrary.

What would be 'lost', to the individual believer, if they admit they have been blatantly ignoring one of the FEW admonitions given by their Lord and Savior? A sense of moral superiority, perhaps? A simple admission that they get a kick out of putting other people down? What drives Christians to ignore this teaching and then defend their ignorance to such extremes, when the scripture is so clear?

[bluethread]

Yes, there was. The woman accused of adultery is about due process. Yeshua could not accuse her, he was not a witness.

Here is the context of the passage Yeshua was referring to.

Hos. 6:4-6 "What can I do with you, Ephraim? What can I do with you, Judah? Your love is like the morning mist, like the early dew that disappears. Therefore I cut you in pieces with my prophets, I killed you with the words of my mouth; my judgments flashed like lightning upon you. For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of Adonai rather than burnt offerings."

This passage is clearly about keeping HaTorah. Making sacrifices, or the detailed rabbinic fences Yeshua was referring to, does not make up for not keeping what actually is in HaTorah. Rabbinic practices like hand washing ceremonies and not eating produce while standing in a field on Shabbat are not excuses for letting people go hungry.

I must disagree that this had anything to do with due process.



Jaheshua knew about the Samaritan woman and her many husbands, without having been witness to her marrying of many husbands. Jaheshua forgave various people their sins... without having been witness to what sin was committed.

Oh, you are talking about the woman at the well. That is a different situation. I do not see where Yeshua mentioned forgiveness in that passage. That passage is about how to treat the (gar)sojourner or those who live in different communities. When she says she has no husband, he does point out that she has had several husbands and was living with someone. However, no one was making any accusations. This appeared to be a community secret, since the community was amazed that He knew the story. However, he no doubt encouraged them to live a Torah submissive life style, since He says, (Jn. 4:22) "You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews." That was in direct response to a question about halacha, ie where one should sacrifice.

How does a person forgive OR condemn (or refuse to condemn) without acknowledging that a sin has been committed in the first place?

There is no direct statement regarding forgiveness in that passage. Also, in the other passage of the woman accused of adultery, He does not say she is forgiven, He says that He does not condemn her.

But He continues to show mercy in what He does- in obedience to God - rather than condemning. His obedience is to the mercy that God desires. The perfect example of that is his execution, persecution, beatings. He is witness to those crimes. He is the recipient of those crimes. Yet - even being the one without sin - He does not call down curses upon them. He does not ask that they be killed. He asks His Father to forgive them.

That is not an example of mercy and not sacrifice. That is an example of mercy and sacrifice. That is the kind of sacrifice Adonai desires.

The understanding that I shared as I have learned from Christ about the woman caught in the act of adultery is in keeping with the example He gave us on the cross as well as the other examples HE gave us when he forgave people their sins, including His teachings that He did not come to condemn, but to save; and His words, "Judge not, lest ye BE judged."

You have got to keep your passages straight. Now we are back to the woman accused of adultery, which is about due process. He did not say her sins were forgiven, He says He does not condemn her. That is because, one must be a witness to condemn someone in a public trial, which is what the crowd was calling for. Also, the statement, "Judge not, lest ye BE judged." is from other passages. Those passages speak to personal judgment, not a criminal proceeding. In that vein, in another place (Mt. 5:25), He also speaks of not getting involved in civil suits, but settling out of court. So, one needs to keep the various passages straight and also needs to be careful about what is being discussed, rather than just applying a preferred principle to various passages out of context.

That said, this is general chat and not bible study, TD&D or C&A, so I guess you are free to do as you please in this forum.

[OpenYourEyes]

]
So we can not judge if i understand your reasoning, right? Are you aware that this is impractical if you applied that to everything in life? You can't call adultery wrong then, right?

Lets put aside homosexuality, and use adultery. If a man continually cheats on his wife, doesnt care about it, says its not a sin, tells you not to judge, and then tries to preach to you and influence others Christians that its okay, would that be all good for you? No? So why the double standard?

And here is why i dont consider unrepentant homosexuals as being Christisn:

1 Corinthians 5:12-1312
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

There ya go, Tams. : )

First... calling a thief a thief is not judging. It is a statement of truth (as long as that one IS a thief, mind you; otherwise it is bearing false witness). Telling a thief that they deserve to go to hell, or that they will go to hell, or that God hates them, or telling them that they cannot be Christian, etc, etc - is judging, as well as a lie, as well as bearing false witness against God (even if in ignorance... because God roasts no one in hell; though Christendom does like to espouse that doctrine).

1 Corinthians 5:12-1312
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.

Please note that Paul had to recant his command here in his third letter to the Corinthians (which we record as his second letter, but it is really his third. 1 Corinthians is actually his second letter; he states that himself in the letter when he says 'this is the second time I am writing to you').

Paul had to recant because Paul was wrong. What Paul wrote and commanded the others to do in that congregation was not in keeping with what Christ taught, and Paul caused a lot of confusion with what he told them to do.

(Paul did not just receive all truth through some sort of osmosis when Christ appeared to him on the road to Damascus. Paul had to LEARN. Just as the apostles also had to learn, and that did not happen all at once. Remember Paul was a former Pharisee, very zealous for the law, and the 'wicked person' being spoken of here had broken one of the levitical laws about who you could have sex with.)

***

Christ said DO NOT judge. Paul said DO judge - even though he learned as attested by his words elsewhere not to judge. So who should you believe? Who should you obey?

Well, who do you love more? Paul? Or Christ? Because we obey the ones we love MOST. Hence the reason that those who are in Christ, who are to be His Bride, and rule in HIS Kingdom must love Him most.


If the words aren't enough, ask yourself (or better yet ask Christ):

Who did Christ shun? Who did He expel? Those who belonged to Him WERE expelled - they did not do the expelling - He even warned that the time was coming they would be thrown out of synagogues, and that whoever did that 'expelling' would think that they were offering a sacred service to God.


Because it doesn't matter what I say, or what Paul says, or what the Pope says, or what reverends and priests and books and scholars and theologians say. For a Christian, the only teachings and commands that should matter are those that Christ taught - by what He spoke, and by what He did. Word and deed.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a fellow slave of Christ,
tammy

Wow tam. The apostle Paul recants? Jesus accepts ALL who "claim" to be his, including those who he will say "i never knew you" (Matthew 7:22-23)? Again, just wow.

[OpenYourEyes]

[Youtube][/youtube]

Tam.. Meet Joe Dallas who lived a homosexual lifestyle but now is a Christian apologist. He addresses some of the questions in your post #1.

Between the 0:00 to 9:40 minute marks -
Joe talks about his personal history in the gay community and gay lifestyle.

Between 9:40 to the end -
Joe explains what is 'gay Christian theology' is and he then explains how to respond to some of the major Gay theology arguments.

[tam]

Wow tam. The apostle Paul recants? Jesus accepts ALL who "claim" to be his, including those who he will say "i never knew you" (Matthew 7:22-23)? Again, just wow.

Yes, the apostle Paul recants.



But where did I say that Christ accepts all who "claim" to be His (but prove that they are not by their actions and their words)?


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

I am off for the night, but Hamsaka that was an excellent post, and Blue thread I am not overlooking you... so I will chat with you both later!


Peace again,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy