Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's

[Zzyzx]

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Would you buy a car, a house, a yacht on just the seller's word (assuming you had access to necessary funds)?

Wouldn't you carefully check (or have checked) those items before paying substantial amounts of money? Of course you would, you're no fool – not gullible – not a rube who just fell off the pumpkin truck. Right?

Checking for truth and accuracy is wise before committing to a course of action or making significant decisions. Right?

If someone tells you he can walk on water you're not likely to believe that unless you can see it done without tricks. If someone tells you that he saw a person walking on water you are even less likely to believe (if you have a lick of sense). If an anonymous person claims that another anonymous person saw the trick "long ago and far away" it would seem as though that would be STRONGLY doubted – unless it was told in religion promotional literature and/or by prophets and priests.

Why set aside judgment and rational fact-checking in order to accept what is said by religion promoters or religious literature?

[Zzyzx]

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The promise in an afterlife holds no weight with me as it has not been demonstrated to me. Sounds like a snake oil sales pitch to me.

Snake oil sells well to some audiences.

However, my more astute Christian friends here in the Bible Belt would not even consider buying a car, house or boat without checking to be sure of what they are getting for their money.

It amazes me, therefore, that those same people buy into religious deals (including a promised "afterlife") with not the least concern about checking to see if they are being told the truth -- and build their whole life around what preachers say or what they come to believe the bible says -- with so little evidence that it would not be enough to convince them to buy a $1000 car.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

It's the scams you fall for when you don't believe in Jesus that cost you the most in this material life.

How many people chase the latest products or buy new cars and have loans thy can't afford trying to follow the gods of this age?

As far as scams go Christianity seems very cheap.

Seeing as Christians are ALSO chasing the latest products and buying new cars and have loans they can't afford, it means the expense is way way higher for them.

For me personally, the Christian scam was very expensive. I spent over 30 years of my life living a lie, spending hours and hours reading my bible, praying and involving myself in church activities and ministries. I spent much hard earned money on it. I put hopes and dreams in it. I spent years in a marriage I should have got out of after a year, thanks to my Christian beliefs. So much time was wasted on religious fantasy. I could have done so much more with my life before I deconverted. I could have put my energies into other things, living my life to fullest, but was being told this life was only a test and that our true lives didn't start until we got to Heaven. So much time wasted. So much energies spent. It's painful to think about it. And then on top of that there was several years of painful rehabilitation - getting over the psychological trauma of discovering that my fiercely held beliefs were based on a lie. Having to break the stubborn mindsets, having to get over the grief of my loss. Having to deal with no longer being immortal and no longer having the comfort that God was looking after me.

A cheap scam? Oh no. Far from cheap.

Back in the early 90s I got stung when my wife and I were ripped off by a housing company who overvalued their properties. We ended up being forced to sell our house and were never able to get any financial compensation. We ended up having to go into bankruptcy. The affect that scam had on me was nothing compared to the affect the Christianity scam had on me.

In fact the Christianity scam still has affects on me. I have to keep my deconversion under my hat for fear of friends and family shunning me. I have to struggle with the fact that I am in my late 40s, my prime is gone and that probably within another 40-50 years I'll be dead and there will be no afterlife like I had believed. The belief of Heaven and God having the whole world in his hand was a wonderful comfortable feelings. I don't have that any more. It's a terrible terrible scam.

[Zzyzx]

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For instance Jesus asks us to build up our treasures in heaven and not look to earthly rewards - which are vain.

It appears as though many who claim to be Jesus-Followers (including many preachers and prophets) pursue "vain" earthly rewards. Is that because they are "not REAL Christians?"

Since the promise of "heaven" for "souls" in an "afterlife" cannot be shown to be anything more than imagination or wishful thinking, is it wise to attempt to "build treasures there" rather than in the real world we inhabit and that we KNOW exists?

This allows the faithful to have the courage to not fall for the many materialist traps that will leave you in a cycle of poverty.

Exactly WHAT "materialist traps that leave (me) in a cycle of poverty" am I (a Non-Theist / Non-Jesus-Believer) likely to fall for that you (a Jesus-Believer / follower) will NOT fall for?

I would venture a guess that I am far less likely to fall for "materialist traps" or scams than you (generic term) religious people who demonstrate willingness to believe (fall for) ancient belief systems based upon testimonials about invisible, undetectable, supernatural entities and "miracles" and "divinity" and "resurrection" (that can only be "found" emotionally and cannot be distinguished from imagination or delusion).

So one scam that sees me tithe each week beats another scam that sees me max my credit card and try to pay down the interest.

Are Jesus-Followers immune from maxing out credit cards and paying interest?

Tell that again to this Non-Theist who uses NO credit cards, owes NO money, pays NO interest. How, exactly, are my theistic friends superior in this regard (when almost all of them use credit cards, borrow money, pay interest -- and worry about bills)?

The only difference between the two scams is the friendships, the love, the sound teaching I hear and the joy and hope I have. Heck I don't even have to give at all.

Are you somehow not aware that Non-Christians also experience friendships, love, sound teaching, joy and hope? Christianity has no monopoly on such things (though many Christians seem to think they do have a monopoly -- and are ignorant of attractive alternatives).

If you really truly appreciated irony you would also appreciate the irony that is available to those on my side of the fence.

Kindly detail that "irony" on your side of the fence.

[1213]

In what way do you claim to know Jesus?

I know how he thinks. Not necessary all, but the principle, or logic and the state of mind.

[Clownboat]

In what way do you claim to know Jesus?

I know how he thinks. Not necessary all, but the principle, or logic and the state of mind.

Can you demonstrate this please?
Take the people that are born with a vagina, but have hidden testicles and their chromosomes show that they are really a man. The specific example I am referring to is one where the women married her high school sweet heart. They could not get pregnant, and only then was this discovered.

Would Jesus think this person should divorce his husband or stay in the gay marriage?

Why does Jesus think that his father created people in such a way?
Thanks.

[bluethread]

I'm confused. What is it you think I am buying here? I "buy" many things rhetorically without much verification. I'm supposed to believe that the stars in the sky are really there, even though I can not verify the existence of even the closest non-solar one empirically for over a year. However, "buying" this doesn't cost me much and there isn't much that would change in my life if that is wrong. So, specifically, what is it that I as theist am buying and what do you think that is costing me?

[Elijah John]

In what way do you claim to know Jesus?

I know how he thinks. Not necessary all, but the principle, or logic and the state of mind.

Moderator Comment

I think I know what you mean, when you say you know Jesus, but please try to be a little more careful with your wording so is does not sound like an unsubstantiated, Damascus-like claim. I understand that you are not claiming to speak FOR Jesus, but take care just the same.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[1213]

Take the people that are born with a vagina, but have hidden testicles and their chromosomes show that they are really a man. The specific example I am referring to is one where the women married her high school sweet heart. They could not get pregnant, and only then was this discovered.

Would Jesus think this person should divorce his husband or stay in the gay marriage?

Why does Jesus think that his father created people in such a way?
Thanks.

Ok, now I want first to say, this is how I understand Jesus would think, not necessary what he would actually think or say.

If they would not have known it, when they got married, then it would not be wrong. When they got the knowledge about the matter, they would have right to divorce, because situation is not what they thought it was. But should they divorce, even if they don’t want?

I would say that they are allowed to continue, even though it would not necessary be reasonable. After all, “she� is at least partially also woman, if she really has vagina. Bible says “'You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman. That is detestible� (Leviticus 18:22, I think that refers to anal sex.). If they don’t do that, I think there is no problem.

God created Adam and Eve. Other people are their offspring and not directly created, if we believe what the Bible tells. (I think Jesus agrees with the Bible). The reason why people are not “good� as in the beginning is that God was rejected and people have done many evil things that cause for example malformations like environmental toxins may cause. (For example people use many things in plastics that act like estrogen and may cause malformations. And one example is also birth control pills, which causes malformations and sex problems at least to water creatures, when the drug remains are flushed with urine to sewer).

[OnceConvinced]

If they would not have known it, when they got married, then it would not be wrong.

Are you indicating here that if you are ignorant of a sin, then it's not a sin?

[Clownboat]

If they would not have known it, when they got married, then it would not be wrong.

Are you indicating here that if you are ignorant of a sin, then it's not a sin?

Not only that, but it seems that if you are a man and have a sex change so that you are partially female (his words), then gay marriage is OK.

I speculate that Jesus would not have agreed.