Question for Catholics

[The Persnickety Platypus]

What is the purpose of a pope?



I have some opinions on the issue and would like to put them up for debate, but to be fair, would first like to hear your reasoning firsthand.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

What I am saying is that the evidence seems to indicate that it hasn't happened.

But I'm not so sure about that either. Remember when people in virtually every culture were outlawed from speaking their mind? Remember when people of certain races were universally accepted as being inferior? Remember when we were all neanderthals running around bashing each others skulls in with mammoth tusks? (Okay, maybe that one is a bit of a stretch )


Or maybe in my boundless optimism I have merely overlooked the moral regressions that accompanied the last couple centries.

[Dilettante]

But I'm not so sure about that either. Remember when people in virtually every culture were outlawed from speaking their mind? Remember when people of certain races were universally accepted as being inferior?

That is true. But it is also true that the 20th century (with thee Holocaust, the Gulag, Cambodia's Killing Fields, etc) put a damper on our many people's best hopes of straightening the "crooked timber of humanity".

In any case, this is a fascinating discussion in its own right, and certainly deserves its own thread, perhaps in the philosophy subforum.

[The Persnickety Platypus]

That is true. But it is also true that the 20th century (with thee Holocaust, the Gulag, Cambodia's Killing Fields, etc) put a damper on our many people's best hopes of straightening the "crooked timber of humanity".

But all the same, you have to look at the big picture. A handful of events brought about by a handful of people does not accuratly depict the kind of moral progress made by all of humanity. Atrocities on the caliber of the ones you mentioned have taken place in every century nevertheless.

In any case, this is a fascinating discussion in its own right, and certainly deserves its own thread, perhaps in the philosophy subforum.

I think I will do that.

[unprofitable servant]

[Dilettante wrote]Can we objectively determine when the Holy Spirit has been at work? I don't think so[/quote]

But you can.
Jesus states: 'But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, he shall teach you all things and bring to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you." john14:26

Bringing into "remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you" its work shows us that Catholicism is a 'false prophet'. How?

Jesus said,"Call no man your father upon the earth, for one is your Father, which is in heaven"Mt23:9

This is not an iterpretation given by men. Yet is it not prevalent throughout the RCC?
Not only do they call men father, but go even further to call one holy father. Is this right?

Doesn't the Spirit bring to our 'remembrance' that Jesus said "Many will come in my name saying I am Christ(anointed) and shall mislead many" mat24, mk13, lk21

But the Spirit shows us other things, "Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will taked vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man" Is47:3
This is prophesied against the "virgin daughter of Babylon" by the LORD GOD Himself. And

Because of the multitude of the whoredoms of the wellfavoured harlot, the mistress of witchcrafts, that selleth nations through her whoredoms, and families through her witchcrafts, Behold, I am against thee, saith the LORD of Hosts, and I will discover thy skirts upon thy face and I will shew the nations thy nakedness and the kingdoms thy shame." Na 3:4,5

Hasn't the Spirit shown this very thing with the sexual and physical abuse that is being brought to everyones attention in these days. Jesus said; "Fear them not therefore for there is nothing covered that shall not be revealed and hid that shall not be known" mat10:26

Aren't these the ones that an apostle said in Spirit 'Forbiding to marry"

[Dilettante]

unprofitable servant,
when I said "objectively" I meant "in a way which is based on verifiable facts, as opposed to subjective emotions or personal interpretations". What you're offering me is your personal interpretation of scripture. That's a far cry from objectivity. In fact it's highly subjective. Unless you can come up with something objective, I don't think you can say you have made your point. And if you're suggesting that sexual abuse is widespread in the Roman Catholic Church or connatural to it, you will need to provide some pretty good evidence to back up such sweepeing generalizations, or I will consider them flamebait.

[Nirvana-Eld]

Hey first off as you can see I am EXTREMELY new. I'm glad to have found a site like this to explore these topics.

Just a reminder to everyone to take into consideration. The reason there is sexual abuse among priests and a not so pretty Church history (specifically the Dark Ages) is because the Church is a human organization. Humans are inherently imperfect so when we look at times like the Dark Ages which is not Humanity's proudest point in history its logical to see such corrupt men grasping for that kind of power. And today the priests in question are obviously far from perfect. But who on earth is perfect? The church is inspired by God but run by people.

And again glad to join you all.

[bernee51]

Hey first off as you can see I am EXTREMELY new. I'm glad to have found a site like this to explore these topics.

Welcome.

Just a reminder to everyone to take into consideration. The reason there is sexual abuse among priests and a not so pretty Church history (specifically the Dark Ages) is because the Church is a human organization.

Sexual abuse happens because we are human. O.K.

“The Dark Ages”... wasn't that when when all people believed in God and the church ruled.

Humans are inherently imperfect...

Humans are inherently human. Perfect or imperfect are value judgements.

The church is inspired by God but run by people.

God is not very good at people management in his organisation, is he?

[unprofitable servant]

[Dilettante 8-09]Quote:
Why can\'t we interpret it? Why can\'t we examine for ourselves what is unbiblical? As I see it, I can do that just as well as any pope. His
Bible says the same things mine does.

I forgot to say that the obvious difficulty with this approach is that we will inevitably read our own ideas into the Bible. [/quote]

Yet the same people whom you said:
[7-30]
Needless to say different readers are bound to arrive at different interpretations. The only way to maintain a certain uniformity was to have a standard interpretation of Christian doctrine. This means having a leader, or a group of leaders among whose one will have the final say. So the need for a pope arises from the variety of possible interpretations of Christainity.[/quote]

have done exactly the same thing.. read their "own ideas into the bible."

[8-7]Also remember that the RCC is not necessarily based on the bible as a whole(that's your standard) but on the New Testament and the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas. And to a Catholic, what the magesterium says is just as important. Catholics do not believe in "Sola Scriptura" so it' not fair to jusge them by such a standard.[/quote]

Maybe if they were "based on the bible as a whole" they would be able to see the doctrines that are true and the doctrines that are false(according to your comment on 7-30).

For instance: Surfing the radio waves I came across a Catholic Q&A segment. The speaker had been asked the question "why do Catholics pray to statutes. Isn't this idol worship?" His comment (parphrased) was that 'the individual was praying for the image to intercede on their behalf to God.'
But since

Catholics do not believe in "Sola Scriptura" so it' not fair to jusge them by such a standard.

they are oblivious to the fact that scripture says 1Tim2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

This makes them in direct contradiction of the Word of God.

Also remember that the RCC is not necessarily based on the bible as a whole(that's your standard)

Then is this word lost to them
Is 42:8 I am the LORD(Jehovah,YHWH,YHVH); that is my name:and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

and this

Ex20:4,5 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is heaven above, or that is int the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them: nor serve them, for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the third and fourth generations of them that hate me.

The Almighty God says "The prophet that hath a dream let him tell a dream and he that hath my word let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD" jer23:28

And the Lord Jesus said "He that heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them"

How are they doing what Jesus says if

And to a Catholic, what the magesterium says is just as important. Catholics do not believe in "Sola Scriptura" so it' not fair to jusge them by such a standard.

Following the scripture is one of the ways to obey the testimony of Christ when He wwarns "Beware of false prophets which come to you in sheep clothing but inwardly are ravening wolves ye shall know them by their fruits."
and what "doctrines are true and false"

[Dilettante]

unprofitable servant, keep in mind that you write from a perspective which arose precisely in opposition to Catholicism and are judging Catholics from that perspective. No wonder you find them wanting. Of course everybody reads their own ideas into the Bible, Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox. But Catholics have no good reason to be Bible literalists, because Catholic theology, once it becomes magisterium, is another source of authority. To a lesser or greater extent, all Christian churches have their interpretation of what it means to follow the scriptures. Some do not allow images, others are opposed to music. But I don't know any which abstains from eating lobster or wearing clothes with a mix of cotton and sythetic fibers, even though the Bible prohibits those things also (in Leviticus, I think).

[unprofitable servant]

unprofitable servant, keep in mind that you write from a perspective which arose precisely in opposition to Catholicism and are judging Catholics from that perspective. No wonder you find them wanting.

I am not judging catholics based on the opinions of others, but according to scripture.

They make the claim, as do others, that they are the true church and do the will of God.
They based their doctrine on the testimony of Jesus but do the very opposite of what Jesus spoke.

You say I am judging them but if their doctrine is based on Christ and the apostles and they built their religion on convincing people of these same things using scriptures as their evidence shouldn't we use the same evidence to determine truthfulness or falseness?

Of course everybody reads their own ideas into the Bible, Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox. But Catholics have no good reason to be Bible literalists, because Catholic theology, once it becomes magisterium, is another source of authority. To a lesser or greater extent, all Christian churches have their interpretation of what it means to follow the scriptures.

And this is exactly why Jesus says "follow me" and to those whom you mention above and all others who say they believe, he says "Everyone that says to me Lord,Lord shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that does the will on my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day Lord,lord have we not prophesied in your name and in your name cast out devils and in your name did many wonderful works and even then will I profess to them I never knew you depart from me you workers of iniquity'
If they are not doing 'the will of my Father", which is "This is My beloved Son hear ye him" then they are false.

It's written in another place 2jn 9 Whosoever transgresses and abides not in the doctrine of Christ has not God. He that abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If any come to you with any other doctrine invite him not int your house nor bid him godspeed'

Another apostle said 'If any come to you with any other gospel.....let him be accursed' isn't the teachings of the RCC another gospel?

And concerning the other denominations that you mentioned haven't they all come from one place? the rcc