Homosexual Pastors

[ByFaithAlone]

My church is deciding on staying with the PCUSA or breaking off as a result of the decision made by our presbytery to allow homosexual pastors to be ordained. We will be having a church informational meeting on Thursday night and tensions will get pretty high.

Regardless of where you stand please pray for my church.

In addition, I would like to pose the question, where do you stand and of course why?

As I know this is a very hot topic, I would request that we remain as civil as possible.

[Braveheart]

Slopeshoulder and Braveheart, if I might interject, the opening post explicitly stated “I would request that we remain as civil as possible.�

If the person you are debating is your brother, why would you speak to him so harshly? If he is your enemy then you are under direct orders from your Lord to show him love and kindness. In a forum with the word “holy� in the title, such harshness is out of place.

Forgive me if I am out of place for saying so.

Gosh, I guess you're right Bjs, Slopeshoulder my brother, will you ever forgive me?

[Adstar]

Slopeshoulder and Braveheart, if I might interject, the opening post explicitly stated “I would request that we remain as civil as possible.�

If the person you are debating is your brother, why would you speak to him so harshly?

1. It does not matter if the other is a brother in faith or not. We are supposed to talk in the way Jesus wants us to.

2. I do not consider most of the people tagged as Christians in this forum to be my Bothers in Jesus. Now that is not a harsh statement. That’s just a statement. People tend to get upset because they don't like people saying that to them. But you should not judge someone’s reaction as a true indicator to the harshness of the statement they are reacting to. that’s what most of the mods in forums do.

"Oh that statement got a negative reaction it must be harsh lets slap a warning on that dude"

If he is your enemy then you are under direct orders from your Lord to show him love and kindness. In a forum with the word “holy� in the title, such harshness is out of place.

True.

Forgive me if I am out of place for saying so.

Don't ask for forgiveness if your doing what your conscience is moving you to do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[otseng]

To them and to me, you're just an obnoxious little fundy gay hater and we/they don't take you seriously either.

I think this is indicative of the problem when dealing with the issue of homosexuality, it seems like ultimately it all devolves into name calling and a dismissal to listen to all perspectives.

I think we need to accept that there will be differences in positions on this. And though we think our own position is right, we also need to accept that we are fallible and that it could be wrong. We can try to convince someone else of our position, but it will take a respectful dialogue. And this will take time and patience and civility.

[Adstar]

To them and to me, you're just an obnoxious little fundy gay hater and we/they don't take you seriously either.

I think this is indicative of the problem when dealing with the issue of homosexuality, it seems like ultimately it all devolves into name calling and a dismissal to listen to all perspectives.

I think we need to accept that there will be differences in positions on this. And though we think our own position is right, we also need to accept that we are fallible and that it could be wrong. We can try to convince someone else of our position, but it will take a respectful dialogue. And this will take time and patience and civility.

Some may be moved to change their position. But from my personal experience very few do change position. There seems to be something foundational in this issue to peoples core faith.

And yes it does end up in mud throwing as you quoted but the Word of God causes offence and it only seems to provoke two reactions. Meek submission or defiant rejection.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[otseng]

Some may be moved to change their position. But from my personal experience very few do change position. There seems to be something foundational in this issue to peoples core faith.

I've changed my position over time. So, from my personal experience, it can change. And homosexuality being something foundational to one's core faith would seem rather strange to me. Why should it affect one's core faith?

it only seems to provoke two reactions. Meek submission or defiant rejection.

This would be a false dichotomy. Implicit in this is that the person presenting the scriptural passages has the correct interpretation.

[Braveheart]

So...did they pass a verdict on whether or not you get the Gays in your church?

[Adstar]

Some may be moved to change their position. But from my personal experience very few do change position. There seems to be something foundational in this issue to peoples core faith.

I've changed my position over time. So, from my personal experience, it can change. And homosexuality being something foundational to one's core faith would seem rather strange to me. Why should it affect one's core faith?

No i did not mean Homosexuality itself, i was talking about peoples Positions on the issue of homosexuality.

it only seems to provoke two reactions. Meek submission or defiant rejection.

This would be a false dichotomy. Implicit in this is that the person presenting the scriptural passages has the correct interpretation.

I don't agree.

There is a correct position. Do you agree? We are all believers and therefore must believe that God has a will in regard to the matter of Homosexuality.

So in this regard my statement is correct. People either react to that position with meek acceptance or defiant rebellion.

We are indeed debating what that actual position is. But the statement was coming from the belief that the position exists. Not necessarily what that position is.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

[otseng]

Some may be moved to change their position. But from my personal experience very few do change position. There seems to be something foundational in this issue to peoples core faith.

I've changed my position over time. So, from my personal experience, it can change. And homosexuality being something foundational to one's core faith would seem rather strange to me. Why should it affect one's core faith?

No i did not mean Homosexuality itself, i was talking about peoples Positions on the issue of homosexuality.

Right, that's how I understood you. How is the position on homosexuality foundational to faith?

it only seems to provoke two reactions. Meek submission or defiant rejection.

This would be a false dichotomy. Implicit in this is that the person presenting the scriptural passages has the correct interpretation.

I don't agree.

There is a correct position. Do you agree? We are all believers and therefore must believe that God has a will in regard to the matter of Homosexuality.

Yes, God does have the "correct" position. But, how can we say for sure that we know what that correct position is?

We are indeed debating what that actual position is. But the statement was coming from the belief that the position exists. Not necessarily what that position is.

Well, I don't want to get too involved in debating that here since this is a discussion subforum.

[Slopeshoulder]

Slopeshoulder and Braveheart, if I might interject, the opening post explicitly stated “I would request that we remain as civil as possible.�

If the person you are debating is your brother, why would you speak to him so harshly?

1. It does not matter if the other is a brother in faith or not. We are supposed to talk in the way Jesus wants us to.

Jesus stands in the prophetic tradition. He spoke truth to power, sometimes bluntly. He called out people who called themselves religious but were clueless hypocrites with black hearts. So I speak like Jesus wants us to.

2. I do not consider most of the people tagged as Christians in this forum to be my Bothers in Jesus.

Who gives a crap? Why is this relevant?

Now that is not a harsh statement. That’s just a statement. People tend to get upset because they don't like people saying that to them.

I actually find it funny, evidence of extremism and arrogance, and against the rules.

But you should not judge someone’s reaction as a true indicator to the harshness of the statement they are reacting to. that’s what most of the mods in forums do.

what?

"Oh that statement got a negative reaction it must be harsh lets slap a warning on that dude"

Speak for yourself. I knew I was going to get slapped and accept it. Because some ideas and people make me sick. Like Jesus would have.

If he is your enemy then you are under direct orders from your Lord to show him love and kindness. In a forum with the word “holy� in the title, such harshness is out of place.

Nope, see above. And BTW calling fellow christians non-christian and therefore probably demonic and damnable is hardly holy. Get real. I smell arrogance, extremism ands hypocracy, and it smells rancid.

True. /quote]
False

Forgive me if I am out of place for saying so.

Don't ask for forgiveness if your doing what your conscience is moving you to do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I agree!!
Which is why I don't ask forgiveness.

[Adstar]

Slopeshoulder and Braveheart, if I might interject, the opening post explicitly stated “I would request that we remain as civil as possible.�

If the person you are debating is your brother, why would you speak to him so harshly?

1. It does not matter if the other is a brother in faith or not. We are supposed to talk in the way Jesus wants us to.

Jesus stands in the prophetic tradition. He spoke truth to power, sometimes bluntly. He called out people who called themselves religious but were clueless hypocrites with black hearts. So I speak like Jesus wants us to.

2. I do not consider most of the people tagged as Christians in this forum to be my Bothers in Jesus.

Who gives a crap? Why is this relevant?

Now that is not a harsh statement. That’s just a statement. People tend to get upset because they don't like people saying that to them.

I actually find it funny, evidence of extremism and arrogance, and against the rules.

But you should not judge someone’s reaction as a true indicator to the harshness of the statement they are reacting to. that’s what most of the mods in forums do.

what?

"Oh that statement got a negative reaction it must be harsh lets slap a warning on that dude"

Speak for yourself. I knew I was going to get slapped and accept it. Because some ideas and people make me sick. Like Jesus would have.

If he is your enemy then you are under direct orders from your Lord to show him love and kindness. In a forum with the word “holy� in the title, such harshness is out of place.

Nope, see above. And BTW calling fellow christians non-christian and therefore probably demonic and damnable is hardly holy. Get real. I smell arrogance, extremism ands hypocracy, and it smells rancid.

True. /quote]
False

Forgive me if I am out of place for saying so.

Don't ask for forgiveness if your doing what your conscience is moving you to do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I agree!!
Which is why I don't ask forgiveness.

And I believe you will not be forgiven if you go to your grave with that attitude about your stance on homosexuality.

You see me as false and are sickened by my stance. I see your position as evil and sickening. Saying that the sin of homosexuality is not sin to me is an abomination. Worse then the actual sin itself.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days