The Value of Absolute Truth

[hamilrob]

If Absolute Truth exists independent of the diversity that leads to relativism, then of what value is it (Absolute Truth) if we can't know what it is because of that relativism?

If two people define a Truth in two divergent ways, both of which could be right, How do we determine who is correct? Even if the Bible were to be used as a standard and even if it WAS infallible, the diversity of interpretations still prevent it from determining absolutely what is right and what is wrong.

I am on the side of Relativism, BTW, but would like to hear from all angles.

[Bro Dave]

Jesus walked on water

He could have, but he didn’t. It was part of a dream which an exhausted Peter experienced while they were returning from fishing.
Actually, Jesus did all in he could not to put on flashy public magic shows. There were a few exception where he was forced to feed the 5 thousand, and where he was manipulated into turning water into wine, but these and his healing of the sick as he passed by were not meant to WOW anyone. In fact, after each healing, the person was admonished to “tell no one”.

Let's back up the truck here just for a moment.
Bro Dave, I would really like to know what version of the bible you are reading.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. The source for my quote was "celestial", not the Bible. It was from a first person observation by one of the angels present during Jesus' life.

Just where does it say Peter was dreaming that Jesus walked on water? And just when was Jesus forced or manipulated into doing anything?

This, and many other interesting revelations about what actually happened are all described in the Urantia Book, which is the 5th in the series of revelations given to us. Jesus brought the 4th revelation.

If Jesus was forced and manipulated into doing things, does that mean God can be as well?

No, but you might want to remember that Jesus was fully human, as well as fully divine. He struggled constantly to keep his divine mind from causing unwanted miracles. The manipulation of water to wine happened because his Mother had virtually promised the bridegroom that her Son would solve his problem of running out of wine... He did it for his Mom!

This takes away from His supposed authority over all things.

Not really, the human Jesus exercised no such authority, and he was careful not to allow his human desires to mix with his divine authority.

In my opinion, this is just more twisted interpretation of scripture.

Not by me! The scriptures have already been twisted by experts, and it hardly needs any further twisting by me!

What is the truth???

Sincerely asking is guaranteed to bring it to you...

Bro Dave

[Bro Dave]

hamilrob, the value of an empty vessel is that it may be filled... Your cup appears to be running over, and there seems little room or need for more.

Bro Dave

[hamilrob]

hamilrob, the value of an empty vessel is that it may be filled... Your cup appears to be running over, and there seems little room or need for more.

HUH?

[Bro Dave]

hamilrob, the value of an empty vessel is that it may be filled... Your cup appears to be running over, and there seems little room or need for more.

HUH?

Exactly!

Bro Dave

[QED]

Atheists have to tip-toe around the concept of Absolute Truth. It is, however, "infinitely simple"; The First Source and Center", i.e. God in His unknowable totality.

But that should not discourage us from wanting to know! After all, His creatinion is here, and we have His presents within us to guide us if we choose. His being always just beyond our reach is what makes and keep our infinite association with Him forever facinating! He has invited us along on an adventure that literally lasts forever. He gains the experience of sharing our learning to become like Him, and we eventually become perfect in the same way He is perfect; we reach the absolute limit of our design limit.

Neat, huh?

We seem to have lost sight of the purpose of this debate. BTW it's interesting the way that you describe god here, he would fit your description just as well even if he didn't exist. Fortunately for us there is no evidence that we were designed, so there is no limit to where we can go.

[Bro Dave]

QED:

Fortunately for us there is no evidence that we were designed, so there is no limit to where we can go.

Now QED, is that the absolute truth?
So, you are of the "happy accident" school of evolution. Really, just close your eyes and visulize what a female would look like in that system! There would never have been the need for birth control... and THAT's the TRUTH!

Bro Dave

[hamilrob]

So, you are of the "happy accident" school of evolution. Really, just close your eyes and visualize what a female would look like in that system! There would never have been the need for birth control... and THAT's the TRUTH!

Bro Dave

So somebody or something designed us, and the gross almost even distribution of males and females is part of that design? True or not, that doesn't tell us who designed us or what designed us. You are discussing intelligent design here, and I am not sure if this is on the topic, but intelligent design asks more questions than it answers, the chief one being WHO designed us? You still have to make that ideological leap to explain the WHO, and that still brings us back to religion where the mind is forced to use imagination and belief rather than reason.


I was reading some more Urantia. Where did they get all that information about the various beings, states of heaven, deities, etc.? What is their claim? Do they have a messenger?; a seer who gets info through meditation? I mean, page after page of relentless description of the supernatural realm and nothing to indicate a source or proof or anything like that. They just go ahead and take absolute truth on a journey of definition that just boggles the rational mind. People that created the Urantia Book are either to be praised or condemned. What's scary is people that accept their writings and are amongst us even today. What could be the basis of the following?

PARADISE is the eternal center of the universe of universes and the abiding place of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and their divine co-ordinates and associates. This central Isle is the most gigantic organized body of cosmic reality in all the master universe. Paradise is a material sphere as well as a spiritual abode. All of the intelligent creation of the Universal Father is domiciled on material abodes; hence must the absolute controlling center also be material, literal. And again it should be reiterated that spirit things and spiritual beings are real. –The Urantia Book

I must be deficient of something. I cannot sit and read this more than a few paragraphs of stuff at one time. At least the bible is prosaically soothing and communicates through the subtle charm of its literary style. This Urantia business throws all questioning aside and proceeds to lay out exactly what is going on in the so-called supernatural sphere. I gather they would not define it as supernatural because they are so convinced it is real. You have to have a stomach for this. How do you read it without thinking you are being subjected to indoctrination?

[Bro Dave]

So somebody or something designed us, and the gross almost even distribution of males and females is part of that design? True or not, that doesn't tell us who designed us or what designed us. You are discussing intelligent design here, and I am not sure if this is on the topic, but intelligent design asks more questions than it answers, the chief one being WHO designed us? You still have to make that ideological leap to explain the WHO, and that still brings us back to religion where the mind is forced to use imagination and belief rather than reason.

Okay, first, let me give you a personal assessment of why we are so apparently isolated. Think for a moment how humans would react, were God to reveal Himself as Father/Creator. They would become totally focused on God’s ability to “fix” every problem, instead of applying the effort and discomfort necessary to do it themselves. This would short circuit the very intent of having us start “at the bottom”, and learn our way up through experience, and eventually graduate with wisdom. And, God quietly participates in it all, sharing those growth experiences which would be impossible any other way. He give us the free will necessary to learn, but is there to whisper suggestions as we are willing to listen. One way, we make bad decisions, and learn more lessons. The other, we listen, and our path is more pleasant.

I was reading some more Urantia.

I truly am impressed. It takes a sincere desire to be willing to read this very imposing tome.

Where did they get all that information about the various beings, states of heaven, deities, etc.? What is their claim? Do they have a messenger?; a seer who gets info through meditation?

The book was authorized while Jesus, was still here, but we were not at a point where we understood enough about the universe and its structure for it to be shared. Not only that, but print medium had not yet been invented, so distribution would have to been verbal. By around 1930, we had sufficient scientific background, and so it was shared with us. As to the authors, there are many who were involved. All were members of the celestial administration at some level. Call them angels if that is more comfortable.

I mean, page after page of relentless description of the supernatural realm and nothing to indicate a source or proof or anything like that. They just go ahead and take absolute truth on a journey of definition that just boggles the rational mind. People that created the Urantia Book are either to be praised or condemned.

Yeah, its pretty overpowering on first read! I bounced off it for 14 years before I just started picking parts that were familiar, like the story of Adam and Eve.

What's scary is people that accept their writings and are amongst us even today. What could be the basis of the following?

The time has come for us to re-emerge from our isolation caused by the Lucifer rebellion. We were quarantined because of him and many other high level administrators who defected, taking 35 other planets with them. However, its all getting sorted out, and we need to be brought back on board.

PARADISE is the eternal center of the universe of universes and the abiding place of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and their divine co-ordinates and associates. This central Isle is the most gigantic organized body of cosmic reality in all the master universe. Paradise is a material sphere as well as a spiritual abode. All of the intelligent creation of the Universal Father is domiciled on material abodes; hence must the absolute controlling center also be material, literal. And again it should be reiterated that spirit things and spiritual beings are real. –The Urantia Book

I must be deficient of something. I cannot sit and read this more than a few paragraphs of stuff at one time. At least the bible is prosaically soothing and communicates through the subtle charm of its literary style. This Urantia business throws all questioning aside and proceeds to lay out exactly what is going on in the so-called supernatural sphere. I gather they would not define it as supernatural because they are so convinced it is real. You have to have a stomach for this. How do you read it without thinking you are being subjected to indoctrination?

No my friend, you are deficient in nothing. As I said, this book will challenge any who read it. I know many who have read it up to a dozen time, and each time it reveals more, as the previous reading clarifies and prepares you. You really have done well. I’ve been reading it for about 30 years, and am still amazed each time return again.

By the way, there are many good sites that have Urantia information, but I like the Wikipedia site, because it gives a fair overview, and has no connection with the Urantia Book. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urantia

Another favorite is TruthBook.com, where I am a moderator. (It got hacked today, so the chat room is down right now) But the rest of the site is still up. If nothing else, let me know what you think about the site, good or bad .

Take care,

Bro Dave

[QED]

QED:

Fortunately for us there is no evidence that we were designed, so there is no limit to where we can go.

Now QED, is that the absolute truth?
So, you are of the "happy accident" school of evolution. Really, just close your eyes and visulize what a female would look like in that system! There would never have been the need for birth control... and THAT's the TRUTH!

Bro Dave

You sound to me like the sort of person who enjoys a good book, and evidently you are able to work your way through some fairly weighty abstract concepts in order to get closer to the truth. But the problem you have understanding how natural selection could bring about the apparent beauty in the female form strongly suggests that you have never picked up one of the myriad of books explaining natural selection. Either that or you have closed-down certain areas of critical thinking in order to protect other fixed notions.

The truth of natural selection comes to us from the many predictions it makes. Different races of humans favour differences in the female form for example. As an obvious Connoisseur yourself I'm sure that you will have noticed certain exaggerations being expressed in particular parts of the body for example - some you might consider attractive, others not so. It would be your genetic inheritance that caused you to favour some forms over others, thus perpetuating such preferences to future generations through the choices you make.

Of course you might want to tell me that your not that choosy, but this sort of effect is far more pronounced in animals than it is in man because our instincts are modulated by our higher thought processes. Thus our tastes are more catholic, but the selection effects are still there to be seen. If god was the arbiter of the female form, it would not exhibit the variations that we see, rather it ought to be made to a "universal" standard which it, most thankfully, is not.

While the discussion is still in the general area, I sincerely hope that you never have to suffer the indignities of prostrate problems but here is a chronically poor piece of design work that frequently lets down the male in later life. If you view this with a truly open mind you will notice that the timing and nature of this flaw is such that it does nothing to impede the procreative process which would otherwise have naturally steered the design away from such a dopey topology. Thus I will never be surprised by the condition should it strike, while I hope that you never find yourself having to ask god why he was so careless.

[hamilrob]

The book was authorized while Jesus, was still here, but we were not at a point where we understood enough about the universe and its structure for it to be shared. Not only that, but print medium had not yet been invented, so distribution would have to been verbal. By around 1930, we had sufficient scientific background, and so it was shared with us. As to the authors, there are many who were involved. All were members of the celestial administration at some level. Call them angels if that is more comfortable.

If nothing else, the Urantia Book is the most detailed mythological exposition in existence. As far as absolute truth goes, I absolutely do NOT believe a word of it. Do you have the word "invention" in your vocabulary?

I can't see you or anybody spending valuable time digesting this fantasy. It would probably spark interest as a science fiction movie. If the religious mind is this committed to supernatural, unverified reality, then rational people in this world have no clue as to what they are up against. Just what seduces your interest in Urantia? Where is the Truth in this book?

One good link deserves another: Go to www.neo-tech.com and read about Neo-Tech.

What is Neo-Tech?

Neo-Tech is a practical-and-natural dynamic for flourishing conscious life: Neo-Tech is (1) a down-to-earth anti-authority, anti-cult, anti-mystical dynamic, (2) an all-inclusive consolidator of reality, and (3) an accurate predictor of the future. …As one American reader expressed, “Neo-Tech makes the unknown known”.

Neo-Tech is neither a philosophy nor an ideology. It fits no political or social category. Rather, it is a flexible tool for universal application. Neo-Tech operates not through the dictates of politics or religion. Rather, it flows through ever new technologies and new techniques created by business, science, and art.

Neo-Tech works not by promoting positives that chain one to the past, but by nullifying negatives that release one into the future. Neo-Tech works not by solving old problems, but by creating new opportunities.

I will bookmark your site and get back to you on it, but believe me, this is more than I can handle. I have heard of brainwash, but this is brain removal and re-installation of someone else's brain. You can't be serious about urantia. I thought Neo-Tech was far out, but you check it and see a different take on an old issue.

Remember, we are seeing that there may well be no truth beyond subjectivity and invention when it comes to religion, so the question remains, WHAT is the value of Absolute Truth?