Does religion ___ have any unforgivable sins?

[davidwr]

Let's develop a list of religions, sects, denominations, and other groups that have "unforgivable sins."

[Edit] Oops, I didn't check that "Non-Christian Religions and Philosophies" is in a debate section. I can't find an appropriate discussion forum for this. Would the first administrator to see this be kind enough to move it to the most-appropriate forum? Thanks.

[Adstar]

I will accept your message and your religion and convert to it if it is approved to be the truth.
In Islam, There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal.

There is no God but the God of Abraham. He is known by different titles. YAVEH and I AM are two that i agree with.

When you say "the Alive" that can be seen in English as being born and living in this world. Rather than simply existing as a intellect. I believe God exists and He is an intellect not a force as some "new age" people thing God is.

I believe God is eternal. He has always existed.

Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him.

I agree.

Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth.

I agree.

Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave?

This is written in old style of English. I would like to know exactly what this sentence means before commenting on it.

He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them,

If the above statement means that God knows each persons past and their future I agree. I believe God knows the whole life and eternal destiny of all men even before they are born.

while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He wills.

I take this to mean that Men only know of God what God choses to reveal to them. Is this what you mean by the above statement?

His throne includes the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

I agree. He is God of Heaven and all that exists.

In Islam The God is understandable. He can be known through His creatures, through meditating the organization of the sunrise and the sunset, the day and the night, the sun and the moon.

I do not believe this. We only know what God allows us to know about Him and He has not revealed all about Himself. I do not believe you can use meditiation to gain knowledge of God bejond what He wills to give to you. I believe we cannot use any technique to force information of God out of Him.

He can be known through meditating the perfect creation of the delicious fruits and the beautiful trees and flowers.
He can be known through meditating the beauty of a horse or the patience of an ant or the colors of a peacock.
He can be known through meditating ourselves to wonder how He grants us with beautiful eyes then protect them with brows and eyelashes.

I do not believe so. We can only meditate on His creation and find out more about it. But i believe this creation is tainted because of the rebellion of Adam and eve in the garden of Eden. Therefore this creation is not perfect, Therefore you cannot come to a true understanding of God my meditating upon creation.

In Islam, The God is One; The One True God who cannot be divided into parts, the eternally Besought of all, who doesn’t beget nor was begotten and there is none comparable unto Him.

I believe God is One, That The Father, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit are all One. The Word of God, whom we call Jesus existed before He came into this world in a flesh body. The Bible says that in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God and all things that where created where created through Him. So Immanuel/ Jesus meaning (God with us) Is the Creator God for all was created through Him. When Jesus was born of Mary It was through the power of God/Holy Spirit. So it was all Gods doing, Mary was if you like the surrogate of Jesus. Jesus did not sin He was born without the human weakness. Mary was a human being and so was a sinner. If you wish you can compare Jesus with Adam. Adam had no father He came into existence totally by the power of God. And when he was created in the Bible God proclaimed Adam Good. It was only after Adam took of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil that he because a faulty man. All men have been faulty ever since because all men have the knowledge of Good and Evil but do not have the nature to control that knowledge therefore evil happens and all mankind is condemned. But Jesus Being God with us in the flesh came to atone for the sins of all men so that whom so ever believed in Him would be granted the Gift of Eternal Life with God and be transformed by God to be Good again, As Adam once was.

The word “Allah� means:
Al: The Ilah: God
Allah: The One True God
The Word Islam means: submission to Allah (The One True God).
Muslim means: the person who submits to The One God.
What is the name of your God? And what is the meaning of the name of your religion?
Remember, I am still primitive and waiting for your strong reply to convince me to convert to your religion.

My God is "I AM." Because there is only One God He does not need a name as such that is why He said to Moses when Moses asked His name.

Exodus 3
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?�
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.� And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’�

I can almost feel the frustration of God when he was asked by Moses for His name. When there is only One of You in existence there is no need for a name. Names are needed for human beings because there are many of us. Names identify one person from another. God being the One and Only God in existence does not need a name. That is why He said to Moses “I AM WHO I AM.� So " I AM" became the name of God.

In the Bible there are many titles that have been given God. The Almighty, The Beginning and the End, The Ancient Of Days, The Comforter, Lord of Hosts, The Rock, Wonderful Counsellor, Holy One, Light Of Israel, Redeemer, Deliverer, The Most High and many more.

The Word Christian was first used to describe people who where followers of Jesus.

The word Christ is a Greek work for Redeemer and that is the same as Messiah
So If we break down the word Christian We see Christ-ian. Ian means people to follow Christ. We could say Redeemerist or Messiahian. But the world has got used to the Greek language tag for People who are followers of the Messiah.


Now the basics of Christian belief is that God is perfect.

God being perfect cannot accept imperfection in eternity.

God who is perfect cannot compromise His perfect Justice

God wishes to Redeem/save his creation.

His creation (Humanity) cannot achieve perfection. Therefore all Humanity is doomed.

But God has a Justified way to Redeem Humanity and has Revealed that Way through the Work of The Messiah Jesus.

God has now offered forgiveness and Redemption to all men who acknowledge their inability to justify themselves. Who agree with God that all men fall short of perfection. Who acknowledge the righteousness of God. That His will is Good and that the Way He has provided for them is Justified.

Men cannot be perfect in life but they can love what is perfect, they can acknowledge what is perfect and by doing so in their spirit they are in agreement with God and are repentant ( have regret) for their imperfection.

Thus God can justifiably Redeem them from eternal destruction, because it is Justice to have Mercy on one who is repentant for their wrongs.

So as A Christian i believe that mankind has only one possible Way to be restored to eternity with God and that is not through mans own efforts to be righteous but through God forgiving men their unrighteousness.

So the key to eternity with God for a Christian is to have all their wrongs and faults forgiven by God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[happy forever]

I will accept your message and your religion and convert to it if it is approved to be the truth.
In Islam, There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal.

There is no God but the God of Abraham. He is known by different titles. YAVEH and I AM are two that i agree with.

When you say "the Alive" that can be seen in English as being born and living in this world. Rather than simply existing as a intellect. I believe God exists and He is an intellect not a force as some "new age" people thing God is.

I believe God is eternal. He has always existed.

Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him.

I agree.

Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth.

I agree.

Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave?

This is written in old style of English. I would like to know exactly what this sentence means before commenting on it.

He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them,

If the above statement means that God knows each persons past and their future I agree. I believe God knows the whole life and eternal destiny of all men even before they are born.

while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He wills.

I take this to mean that Men only know of God what God choses to reveal to them. Is this what you mean by the above statement?

His throne includes the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

I agree. He is God of Heaven and all that exists.

In Islam The God is understandable. He can be known through His creatures, through meditating the organization of the sunrise and the sunset, the day and the night, the sun and the moon.

I do not believe this. We only know what God allows us to know about Him and He has not revealed all about Himself. I do not believe you can use meditiation to gain knowledge of God bejond what He wills to give to you. I believe we cannot use any technique to force information of God out of Him.

He can be known through meditating the perfect creation of the delicious fruits and the beautiful trees and flowers.
He can be known through meditating the beauty of a horse or the patience of an ant or the colors of a peacock.
He can be known through meditating ourselves to wonder how He grants us with beautiful eyes then protect them with brows and eyelashes.

I do not believe so. We can only meditate on His creation and find out more about it. But i believe this creation is tainted because of the rebellion of Adam and eve in the garden of Eden. Therefore this creation is not perfect, Therefore you cannot come to a true understanding of God my meditating upon creation.

In Islam, The God is One; The One True God who cannot be divided into parts, the eternally Besought of all, who doesn’t beget nor was begotten and there is none comparable unto Him.

I believe God is One, That The Father, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit are all One. The Word of God, whom we call Jesus existed before He came into this world in a flesh body. The Bible says that in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God and all things that where created where created through Him. So Immanuel/ Jesus meaning (God with us) Is the Creator God for all was created through Him. When Jesus was born of Mary It was through the power of God/Holy Spirit. So it was all Gods doing, Mary was if you like the surrogate of Jesus. Jesus did not sin He was born without the human weakness. Mary was a human being and so was a sinner. If you wish you can compare Jesus with Adam. Adam had no father He came into existence totally by the power of God. And when he was created in the Bible God proclaimed Adam Good. It was only after Adam took of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil that he because a faulty man. All men have been faulty ever since because all men have the knowledge of Good and Evil but do not have the nature to control that knowledge therefore evil happens and all mankind is condemned. But Jesus Being God with us in the flesh came to atone for the sins of all men so that whom so ever believed in Him would be granted the Gift of Eternal Life with God and be transformed by God to be Good again, As Adam once was.

The word “Allah� means:
Al: The Ilah: God
Allah: The One True God
The Word Islam means: submission to Allah (The One True God).
Muslim means: the person who submits to The One God.
What is the name of your God? And what is the meaning of the name of your religion?
Remember, I am still primitive and waiting for your strong reply to convince me to convert to your religion.

My God is "I AM." Because there is only One God He does not need a name as such that is why He said to Moses when Moses asked His name.

Exodus 3
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?�
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.� And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’�

I can almost feel the frustration of God when he was asked by Moses for His name. When there is only One of You in existence there is no need for a name. Names are needed for human beings because there are many of us. Names identify one person from another. God being the One and Only God in existence does not need a name. That is why He said to Moses “I AM WHO I AM.� So " I AM" became the name of God.

In the Bible there are many titles that have been given God. The Almighty, The Beginning and the End, The Ancient Of Days, The Comforter, Lord of Hosts, The Rock, Wonderful Counsellor, Holy One, Light Of Israel, Redeemer, Deliverer, The Most High and many more.

The Word Christian was first used to describe people who where followers of Jesus.

The word Christ is a Greek work for Redeemer and that is the same as Messiah
So If we break down the word Christian We see Christ-ian. Ian means people to follow Christ. We could say Redeemerist or Messiahian. But the world has got used to the Greek language tag for People who are followers of the Messiah.


Now the basics of Christian belief is that God is perfect.

God being perfect cannot accept imperfection in eternity.

God who is perfect cannot compromise His perfect Justice

God wishes to Redeem/save his creation.

His creation (Humanity) cannot achieve perfection. Therefore all Humanity is doomed.

But God has a Justified way to Redeem Humanity and has Revealed that Way through the Work of The Messiah Jesus.

God has now offered forgiveness and Redemption to all men who acknowledge their inability to justify themselves. Who agree with God that all men fall short of perfection. Who acknowledge the righteousness of God. That His will is Good and that the Way He has provided for them is Justified.

Men cannot be perfect in life but they can love what is perfect, they can acknowledge what is perfect and by doing so in their spirit they are in agreement with God and are repentant ( have regret) for their imperfection.

Thus God can justifiably Redeem them from eternal destruction, because it is Justice to have Mercy on one who is repentant for their wrongs.

So as A Christian i believe that mankind has only one possible Way to be restored to eternity with God and that is not through mans own efforts to be righteous but through God forgiving men their unrighteousness.

So the key to eternity with God for a Christian is to have all their wrongs and faults forgiven by God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If this is the meaning of alive then I am mistaken.

So you agree with me and I agree with you in the points that is accepted naturally and mentally. It is our nature to believe that The One God is perfect and to Him is all the best names.
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/99names.htm
I believe that Allah (The One True God) is the creator of the heaven and the earth.
"He created man to be his vicegerent on earth.
Behold thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? Whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." (30)"[2-30] Quran
I believe that Man is granted mind to use it in worshping and obeying His God.
I believe that Noah is the first messenger for the first idolaters who by time forgot the teachings of Adam and followed their parents in glorifying idols beside Allah and his first message is no God but Allah.
I believe that Allah sent Abraham and his first message is no god but Allah.
I believe that Allah sent Moses and his first message is no god but Allah.
I believe that Allah sent Jesus and his first message is no god but Allah.
I believe that Allah sent Muhammad and his first message is no god but Allah.
There are many messengers whom we know and whom we don't know but Muhammad the messenger of Allah is the last messenger.
Allah sent messenger to deliver His message to those who don't know Him. Allah supported most of His messengers with evidence and miracles that suit their peoples as the fire for Abraham, the stick for Moses and Healing for Jesus.
And because Muhammad is the last messenger and his message is for all people, not specific people at specific time, his miracle must live for all ages and must be distributed among all.

Unfortunately we disagree on the most important concept, Who is The God?
Why The God created us with mind if we will not use it to know Him?
How will you be a strong believer of The God as long as you don't believe Him mentally?
What is the difference between thinking that the God is a human and a spirit and a father and another one who thinks that god is a cow?
You say god is one but three and you believe in this as is and another person would say that god is a cow and he believes in this as is.
And believes that God is One because the whole universe is one unit connected to each other and complete each other and He is The One and The Only Creator and any others are Creatures.
As a primitive, which one do you think I will choose?

[Adstar]

I will accept your message and your religion and convert to it if it is approved to be the truth.
In Islam, There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal.

There is no God but the God of Abraham. He is known by different titles. YAVEH and I AM are two that i agree with.

When you say "the Alive" that can be seen in English as being born and living in this world. Rather than simply existing as a intellect. I believe God exists and He is an intellect not a force as some "new age" people thing God is.

I believe God is eternal. He has always existed.

Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him.

I agree.

Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth.

I agree.

Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave?

This is written in old style of English. I would like to know exactly what this sentence means before commenting on it.

He knows that which is in front of them and that which is behind them,

If the above statement means that God knows each persons past and their future I agree. I believe God knows the whole life and eternal destiny of all men even before they are born.

while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He wills.

I take this to mean that Men only know of God what God choses to reveal to them. Is this what you mean by the above statement?

His throne includes the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

I agree. He is God of Heaven and all that exists.

In Islam The God is understandable. He can be known through His creatures, through meditating the organization of the sunrise and the sunset, the day and the night, the sun and the moon.

I do not believe this. We only know what God allows us to know about Him and He has not revealed all about Himself. I do not believe you can use meditiation to gain knowledge of God bejond what He wills to give to you. I believe we cannot use any technique to force information of God out of Him.

He can be known through meditating the perfect creation of the delicious fruits and the beautiful trees and flowers.
He can be known through meditating the beauty of a horse or the patience of an ant or the colors of a peacock.
He can be known through meditating ourselves to wonder how He grants us with beautiful eyes then protect them with brows and eyelashes.

I do not believe so. We can only meditate on His creation and find out more about it. But i believe this creation is tainted because of the rebellion of Adam and eve in the garden of Eden. Therefore this creation is not perfect, Therefore you cannot come to a true understanding of God my meditating upon creation.

In Islam, The God is One; The One True God who cannot be divided into parts, the eternally Besought of all, who doesn’t beget nor was begotten and there is none comparable unto Him.

I believe God is One, That The Father, the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit are all One. The Word of God, whom we call Jesus existed before He came into this world in a flesh body. The Bible says that in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God and all things that where created where created through Him. So Immanuel/ Jesus meaning (God with us) Is the Creator God for all was created through Him. When Jesus was born of Mary It was through the power of God/Holy Spirit. So it was all Gods doing, Mary was if you like the surrogate of Jesus. Jesus did not sin He was born without the human weakness. Mary was a human being and so was a sinner. If you wish you can compare Jesus with Adam. Adam had no father He came into existence totally by the power of God. And when he was created in the Bible God proclaimed Adam Good. It was only after Adam took of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil that he because a faulty man. All men have been faulty ever since because all men have the knowledge of Good and Evil but do not have the nature to control that knowledge therefore evil happens and all mankind is condemned. But Jesus Being God with us in the flesh came to atone for the sins of all men so that whom so ever believed in Him would be granted the Gift of Eternal Life with God and be transformed by God to be Good again, As Adam once was.

The word “Allah� means:
Al: The Ilah: God
Allah: The One True God
The Word Islam means: submission to Allah (The One True God).
Muslim means: the person who submits to The One God.
What is the name of your God? And what is the meaning of the name of your religion?
Remember, I am still primitive and waiting for your strong reply to convince me to convert to your religion.

My God is "I AM." Because there is only One God He does not need a name as such that is why He said to Moses when Moses asked His name.

Exodus 3
13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?�
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.� And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’�

I can almost feel the frustration of God when he was asked by Moses for His name. When there is only One of You in existence there is no need for a name. Names are needed for human beings because there are many of us. Names identify one person from another. God being the One and Only God in existence does not need a name. That is why He said to Moses “I AM WHO I AM.� So " I AM" became the name of God.

In the Bible there are many titles that have been given God. The Almighty, The Beginning and the End, The Ancient Of Days, The Comforter, Lord of Hosts, The Rock, Wonderful Counsellor, Holy One, Light Of Israel, Redeemer, Deliverer, The Most High and many more.

The Word Christian was first used to describe people who where followers of Jesus.

The word Christ is a Greek work for Redeemer and that is the same as Messiah
So If we break down the word Christian We see Christ-ian. Ian means people to follow Christ. We could say Redeemerist or Messiahian. But the world has got used to the Greek language tag for People who are followers of the Messiah.


Now the basics of Christian belief is that God is perfect.

God being perfect cannot accept imperfection in eternity.

God who is perfect cannot compromise His perfect Justice

God wishes to Redeem/save his creation.

His creation (Humanity) cannot achieve perfection. Therefore all Humanity is doomed.

But God has a Justified way to Redeem Humanity and has Revealed that Way through the Work of The Messiah Jesus.

God has now offered forgiveness and Redemption to all men who acknowledge their inability to justify themselves. Who agree with God that all men fall short of perfection. Who acknowledge the righteousness of God. That His will is Good and that the Way He has provided for them is Justified.

Men cannot be perfect in life but they can love what is perfect, they can acknowledge what is perfect and by doing so in their spirit they are in agreement with God and are repentant ( have regret) for their imperfection.

Thus God can justifiably Redeem them from eternal destruction, because it is Justice to have Mercy on one who is repentant for their wrongs.

So as A Christian i believe that mankind has only one possible Way to be restored to eternity with God and that is not through mans own efforts to be righteous but through God forgiving men their unrighteousness.

So the key to eternity with God for a Christian is to have all their wrongs and faults forgiven by God.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Unfortunately we disagree on the most important concept, Who is The God?
Why The God created us with mind if we will not use it to know Him?

He gave us the mind so that when He revealed Himself to Us we would understand what He wanted us to understand about Him. But when we try and figure God out the we run into big mistakes because all we do is create a god in the image of our own thinking.

How will you be a strong believer of The God as long as you don't believe Him mentally?

Oh But i do most certainly believe in Him. The God of Abraham is real and God of all that exists.

What is the difference between thinking that the God is a human and a spirit and a father and another one who thinks that god is a cow?

God is God. He willed to appear in the flesh. He willed to appear on earth as Jesus. And He wills to come now as the Holy Spirit.

You say god is one but three and you believe in this as is and another person would say that god is a cow and he believes in this as is.

No i am different i don't believe God has ever appeared as a cow. This line of argument you have taken with the cow issue is irrelevant to me.

So your god allah does not have the power to appear on earth in flesh?? Or as a Spirit? I must say you must look upon your god allah as a pathetic god. My God YAVEH the God of Abraham can do these things and much much more. He is a God of absolute power and wisdom and abilities. All things that can be done He can do them all.

And believes that God is One because the whole universe is one unit connected to each other and complete each other and He is The One and The Only Creator and any others are Creatures.
As a primitive, which one do you think I will choose?

Probably the one your mind agrees with. And if you know your god then that shows that your god is just an extension of your own mind.

My God YAVEH is unknowable in His totality. But He reveals to us what He wills us to know.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Murad]

So your god allah does not have the power to appear on earth in flesh?? Or as a Spirit? I must say you must look upon your god allah as a pathetic god. My God YAVEH the God of Abraham can do these things and much much more. He is a God of absolute power and wisdom and abilities. All things that can be done He can do them all.

Although i do not agree with happy forever' preaching & i've issued 2 warnings to him, you raise a FAQ that i would like to answer.


Nowhere in the Quran does it say God does not have the power to beget a son, but it considers to whole ideology of an "Incarnate God" as blasphemous. Similarly, it is impossible for God to lie in the Bible:

God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.
(Hebrews 6:18)

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
(Numbers 23:19)

in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
(Titus 1:2)

Now if i say you view your God as a "pathetic God" (as you put it), would i be honest or dishonest?

God is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot do ungodly things, for example he does not go to the toilet or he does not have sexual urges, he has the power to do so, but he simply does not. Similarly, God does not become a "DemiGod" to "Suicide" for our sins, he simply does not:

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�
[Qur'an 5:17]

[Adstar]

Nowhere in the Quran does it say God does not have the power to beget a son, but it considers to whole ideology of an "Incarnate God" as blasphemous.

Then it has to be asked Why does it consider God coming to earth in a mans body blasphemous? Is there something sinful about protons neutrons and electrons The stuff that we are made up of? No, of course the Bible does not claim that God came in a flesh body as a normal sinful man, but that He came sinless and was perfect.

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
(Numbers 23:19)

in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
(Titus 1:2)

Yes to all these scriptures God is not a liar and Jesus was not a liar. Jesus was without sin.

Now if i say you view your God as a "pathetic God" (as you put it), would i be honest or dishonest?

I don't consider my God as a "pathetic God" What you say is up to you.

God is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot do ungodly things, for example he does not go to the toilet or he does not have sexual urges,

You talk of going to the toilet as if it was a sin? Do muslims believe that going to the toilet is sin? This sounds very weird to me. I cannot see how going to the toilet has anything to do with sin.

As for Sexual urges Jesus did not have sexual relations with any woman, He never married. And Jesus was not homosexual, as some blasphemous people have claimed.

You got to be clear on this. We do not believe Jesus was a normal man like everyone else on earth. He was a perfect and sinless because He was The Word of God in the flesh.

he has the power to do so, but he simply does not. Similarly, God does not become a "DemiGod" to "Suicide" for our sins, he simply does not:

Firstly Jesus did not suicide. He allowed others to execute Him. Secondly Jesus is not a demigod (half God) Jesus is God in full. You are simply making statements here your "simply does not" is based on what? Your agreement with the quran? I don't believe that the quran is inspired by God. So where does that leave us?

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�
[Qur'an 5:17]

Yes i know this verse, It has been quoted to me before. But it does conform to an all to human view of God. People with that mindset just cannot believe that God has come into the world to do a wonderful act of Love to demonstrate both His righteousness and He love for His creation at the same time.

Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?�
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?�

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.


Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


All Glory and Honor and Praise is to God who has achieved all things.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Murad]

Nowhere in the Quran does it say God does not have the power to beget a son, but it considers to whole ideology of an "Incarnate God" as blasphemous.

Then it has to be asked Why does it consider God coming to earth in a mans body blasphemous? Is there something sinful about protons neutrons and electrons The stuff that we are made up of? No, of course the Bible does not claim that God came in a flesh body as a normal sinful man, but that He came sinless and was perfect.

There is nothin sinful about matter & i havn't made any statement that would assert that, theologically God cannot become or do anything thats "Ungodly". I've given you an example in the Bible already, God cannot lie, the moment he does lie, he ceases to be a God.

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
(Numbers 23:19)

in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
(Titus 1:2)

Yes to all these scriptures God is not a liar and Jesus was not a liar. Jesus was without sin.

Im not calling Jesus a liar, im saying the God in Christendom is restricted by his Godhood, which means he cannot lie. Similarly, God in Islam is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot "Beget" family members like humans do.

Now if i say you view your God as a "pathetic God" (as you put it), would i be honest or dishonest?

I don't consider my God as a "pathetic God" What you say is up to you.

Please answer my question, if i said Christians view their God as a "pathetic" God because he cannot 'lie', something that even mere humans can do; would i be honest or dishonest? (In your opinion). If you believe i would be dishonest, you can see why i believe the same when you accuse muslims of seeing their God as "pathetic" for not being able to do human actions like "begetting" children.

God is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot do ungodly things, for example he does not go to the toilet or he does not have sexual urges,

You talk of going to the toilet as if it was a sin? Do muslims believe that going to the toilet is sin? This sounds very weird to me. I cannot see how going to the toilet has anything to do with sin.

Im not talking about Sin & i wasn't referring to any person of the Trinity in particular, rather God in general. Do you believe God goes to the toilet to discharge himself? Most likely not, but why not? Because its an ungodly thing to do.

As for Sexual urges Jesus did not have sexual relations with any woman, He never married. And Jesus was not homosexual, as some blasphemous people have claimed.

Do you believe God can have sexual urges when he sees an attractive male or female?

You got to be clear on this. We do not believe Jesus was a normal man like everyone else on earth. He was a perfect and sinless because He was The Word of God in the flesh.

Im pretty familiar with Christianity you can be sure about that.

he has the power to do so, but he simply does not. Similarly, God does not become a "DemiGod" to "Suicide" for our sins, he simply does not:

Firstly Jesus did not suicide.

What else do you call God becoming "Incarnate" to die on the cross for humanity? By definition, God comitted suicide.

He allowed others to execute Him.

If i gave you a gun and told you to shoot me, that would be classified as "Suicide"

1.
su·i·cide/ˈso͞oiˌsīd/
Noun: The action of killing oneself intentionally: "he committed suicide at the age of forty".

Secondly Jesus is not a demigod (half God) Jesus is God in full.

It depends what doctrine you believe in. You have Greek & Russian orthodox who believe in the doctrine of Kenosis where Jesus emptied some of his Godhood. (DemiGod)

Then you have mainstream Christians who believe in the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union (Fully Man Fully God).

The doctrine of Kenosis is more logical IMO, because the Hypostatic Union contradicts Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Matthew 24:36)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Mark 13:32)

Can you imagine someone thats "Fully God" not knowing something? By definition its illogical.

You are simply making statements here your "simply does not" is based on what? Your agreement with the quran? I don't believe that the quran is inspired by God. So where does that leave us?

Its based on your Bible where God is not omnipotent as its impossible for him to lie. & i gave reasons why he cannot lie.

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�
[Qur'an 5:17]

Yes i know this verse, It has been quoted to me before. But it does conform to an all to human view of God. People with that mindset just cannot believe that God has come into the world to do a wonderful act of Love to demonstrate both His righteousness and He love for His creation at the same time.

Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?�
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?�

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.


Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


All Glory and Honor and Praise is to God who has achieved all things.

Has he acheived the ability to lie?
If not, why do you expect the Islamic view of God to be able to become "God Incarnate"?

[Adstar]

Nowhere in the Quran does it say God does not have the power to beget a son, but it considers to whole ideology of an "Incarnate God" as blasphemous.

Then it has to be asked Why does it consider God coming to earth in a mans body blasphemous? Is there something sinful about protons neutrons and electrons The stuff that we are made up of? No, of course the Bible does not claim that God came in a flesh body as a normal sinful man, but that He came sinless and was perfect.

There is nothing sinful about matter & i haven’t made any statement that would assert that, theologically God cannot become or do anything thats "Ungodly". I've given you an example in the Bible already, God cannot lie, the moment he does lie, he ceases to be a God.

Well i agree. God does not lie. Makes me wonder why you mentioned that point?

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
(Numbers 23:19)

in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
(Titus 1:2)

Yes to all these scriptures God is not a liar and Jesus was not a liar. Jesus was without sin.

Im not calling Jesus a liar, im saying the God in Christendom is restricted by his Godhood, which means he cannot lie. Similarly, God in Islam is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot "Beget" family members like humans do.

So logical conclusion is the god of allah is not YAVEH the God of Abraham.

Now if i say you view your God as a "pathetic God" (as you put it), would i be honest or dishonest?

I don't consider my God as a "pathetic God" What you say is up to you.

Please answer my question, if i said Christians view their God as a "pathetic" God because he cannot 'lie', something that even mere humans can do; would i be honest or dishonest? (In your opinion). If you believe i would be dishonest, you can see why i believe the same when you accuse muslims of seeing their God as "pathetic" for not being able to do human actions like "begetting" children.

I don't know. If you believed Christians looked upon God as being pathetic then you would be being honest if you made that statement. Honestly mistaken but still honest.

God is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot do ungodly things, for example he does not go to the toilet or he does not have sexual urges,

You talk of going to the toilet as if it was a sin? Do muslims believe that going to the toilet is sin? This sounds very weird to me. I cannot see how going to the toilet has anything to do with sin.

Im not talking about Sin & i wasn't referring to any person of the Trinity in particular, rather God in general. Do you believe God goes to the toilet to discharge himself? Most likely not, but why not? Because its an ungodly thing to do.

I am sure when Jesus was on earth He went to the toilet. Not sure if he still eats though. I think He may have no further need for food. We shall find out in the end.

And again God can do anything that is possible to do. You calling something "ungodly" is just a judgement coming from??? Nowhere but your own mindset.

As for Sexual urges Jesus did not have sexual relations with any woman, He never married. And Jesus was not homosexual, as some blasphemous people have claimed.

Do you believe God can have sexual urges when he sees an attractive male or female?

I guess He could if He felt the need to. But i do not think He needs or wants to.

You got to be clear on this. We do not believe Jesus was a normal man like everyone else on earth. He was a perfect and sinless because He was The Word of God in the flesh.

Im pretty familiar with Christianity you can be sure about that.

Good. It does puzzle me why you are asking these questions if you are familiar with Christianity.

he has the power to do so, but he simply does not. Similarly, God does not become a "DemiGod" to "Suicide" for our sins, he simply does not:

Firstly Jesus did not suicide.

What else do you call God becoming "Incarnate" to die on the cross for humanity? By definition, God comitted suicide.

No committing suicide requires one to take their own life. Jesus did not kill Himself. Others wanted to kill him, the Sanhedrin. And they organised His execution. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken and killed. that’s not suicide that i laying down ones life for a cause.

He allowed others to execute Him.

If i gave you a gun and told you to shoot me, that would be classified as "Suicide"

1.
su·i·cide/ˈso͞oiˌsīd/
Noun: The action of killing oneself intentionally: "he committed suicide at the age of forty".

Jesus did not order the Sanhedrin to organise His execution. He forknew they would do it because Jesus is God. The Sanhedrin did what they did from their own motivations against Jesus. So again Jesus did not kill Himself.

Secondly Jesus is not a demigod (half God) Jesus is God in full.

It depends what doctrine you believe in. You have Greek & Russian orthodox who believe in the doctrine of Kenosis where Jesus emptied some of his Godhood. (DemiGod)

Then you have mainstream Christians who believe in the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union (Fully Man Fully God).

Well i don't belong to the greek or russian orthodox religions. You may as well be talking about islam.

The doctrine of Kenosis is more logical IMO, because the Hypostatic Union contradicts Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Matthew 24:36)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Mark 13:32)

Can you imagine someone thats "Fully God" not knowing something? By definition its illogical.

Jesus was not going to reveal the day. Just because He said only the Father knows does not mean He did not know. Jesus and the Father are One. He simply gave an answer without giving the answer they wanted. He still has not revealed the answer even if many supposed modern day "prophets?" keep announcing the date.

You are simply making statements here your "simply does not" is based on what? Your agreement with the quran? I don't believe that the quran is inspired by God. So where does that leave us?

Its based on your Bible where God is not omnipotent as its impossible for him to lie. & i gave reasons why he cannot lie.

Look i believe God can do what ever is possible to do. I do not believe God can do anything. Why bring up a point of argument when the other person does not believe God can do anything. God cannot make a rock that is imposable to lift, then lift it.

“In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against God, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For God hath power over all things.�
[Qur'an 5:17]

Yes i know this verse, It has been quoted to me before. But it does conform to an all to human view of God. People with that mindset just cannot believe that God has come into the world to do a wonderful act of Love to demonstrate both His righteousness and He love for His creation at the same time.

Romans 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 “ For who has known the mind of the LORD?
Or who has become His counselor?�
35 “ Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?�

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.


Romans 3
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.


All Glory and Honor and Praise is to God who has achieved all things.

Has he acheived the ability to lie?

Ability to lie??? You keep hammering away on this point and i do not have the lest idea why? What point are you trying to make?

If not, why do you expect the Islamic view of God to be able to become "God Incarnate"?

What? Please re-read your question because i cannot make out what you asking here? Please if anyone else can figure this question out please post what you think is being asked.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Murad]

Nowhere in the Quran does it say God does not have the power to beget a son, but it considers to whole ideology of an "Incarnate God" as blasphemous.

Then it has to be asked Why does it consider God coming to earth in a mans body blasphemous? Is there something sinful about protons neutrons and electrons The stuff that we are made up of? No, of course the Bible does not claim that God came in a flesh body as a normal sinful man, but that He came sinless and was perfect.

There is nothing sinful about matter & i haven’t made any statement that would assert that, theologically God cannot become or do anything thats "Ungodly". I've given you an example in the Bible already, God cannot lie, the moment he does lie, he ceases to be a God.

Well i agree. God does not lie. Makes me wonder why you mentioned that point?

Its not that God doesn't lie, its impossible for God to lie (as i showed in the Bible), does that make your God less omnipotent? Why can't your God do something that even we mere humans can do? Is he that weak?

Do you get my point? When you assert that the Islamic notion of God is "pathetic" because he can't sexually reproduce a son (the act of begetting), you are turning a blind eye on your short-commings.

God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?
(Numbers 23:19)

in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,
(Titus 1:2)

Yes to all these scriptures God is not a liar and Jesus was not a liar. Jesus was without sin.

Im not calling Jesus a liar, im saying the God in Christendom is restricted by his Godhood, which means he cannot lie. Similarly, God in Islam is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot "Beget" family members like humans do.

So logical conclusion is the god of allah is not YAVEH the God of Abraham.

Incorrect, the God of Christianity is not Yahweh or Allah its the "Triune Union" (Trinity), as it is absolute blasphemy both in Islam & Judaism for God to beget family members.

God is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot do ungodly things, for example he does not go to the toilet or he does not have sexual urges,

You talk of going to the toilet as if it was a sin? Do muslims believe that going to the toilet is sin? This sounds very weird to me. I cannot see how going to the toilet has anything to do with sin.

Im not talking about Sin & i wasn't referring to any person of the Trinity in particular, rather God in general. Do you believe God goes to the toilet to discharge himself? Most likely not, but why not? Because its an ungodly thing to do.

I am sure when Jesus was on earth He went to the toilet. Not sure if he still eats though. I think He may have no further need for food. We shall find out in the end.

And again God can do anything that is possible to do. You calling something "ungodly" is just a judgement coming from??? Nowhere but your own mindset.

Its a Judgment comming from theological logic. If God is the self-sustainer (omnipotent), he does not need to eat or excrete because he himself is the essence of existence. He does not have/do what his creation does, that includes eating, sleeping, sex, fingerprints etc...etc..

As for Sexual urges Jesus did not have sexual relations with any woman, He never married. And Jesus was not homosexual, as some blasphemous people have claimed.

Do you believe God can have sexual urges when he sees an attractive male or female?

I guess He could if He felt the need to. But i do not think He needs or wants to.

Thats where we differ, Islam does not attribute ungodly properties to God, not because we see our God as pathetic (as you put it), but because we see him as great & like its impossible for God to lie in the Bible, its impossible for God to do ungodly things.

he has the power to do so, but he simply does not. Similarly, God does not become a "DemiGod" to "Suicide" for our sins, he simply does not:

Firstly Jesus did not suicide.

What else do you call God becoming "Incarnate" to die on the cross for humanity? By definition, God comitted suicide.

No committing suicide requires one to take their own life. Jesus did not kill Himself. Others wanted to kill him, the Sanhedrin. And they organised His execution. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken and killed. that’s not suicide that i laying down ones life for a cause.

Thats where you dont seem to understand, according to the doctrine of atonement & blood, Jesus (Logos) became flesh in God's divine plan to redeem mankind of their sins by dying on the cross; meaning it was divinely planned from the beginning it did not happen in random. When you plan your OWN death its called suicide.

He allowed others to execute Him.

If i gave you a gun and told you to shoot me, that would be classified as "Suicide"

1.
su·i·cide/ˈso͞oiˌsīd/
Noun: The action of killing oneself intentionally: "he committed suicide at the age of forty".

Jesus did not order the Sanhedrin to organise His execution. He forknew they would do it because Jesus is God. The Sanhedrin did what they did from their own motivations against Jesus. So again Jesus did not kill Himself.

1) Did they overpower Jesus? Then what kind of God is that?
2) Did Jesus enjoy being crucified & tortured? Then blessed be his torturers.

If you say no to #1 & assert that "God let them crucify Jesus" that means it was suicide, period.

Secondly Jesus is not a demigod (half God) Jesus is God in full.

It depends what doctrine you believe in. You have Greek & Russian orthodox who believe in the doctrine of Kenosis where Jesus emptied some of his Godhood. (DemiGod)

Then you have mainstream Christians who believe in the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union (Fully Man Fully God).

Well i don't belong to the greek or russian orthodox religions. You may as well be talking about islam.

You can see the confusion within Christendom on who Jesus exactly is.
You have:
1) Unitarians
2) Trinitarians
3) Believers in the Divine Sonship/Rejecters of the Divine Sonship
4) Doctrine of Hypostatic Union
5) Doctrine of Kenosis

& The list goes on, so when you say Jesus wasn't a DemiGod, you are only representing one side of Christianity. Though the word "DemiGod" isn't used, its literally what is ment.

The doctrine of Kenosis is more logical IMO, because the Hypostatic Union contradicts Matthew 24:36 & Mark 13:32:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Matthew 24:36)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Mark 13:32)

Can you imagine someone thats "Fully God" not knowing something? By definition its illogical.

Jesus was not going to reveal the day. Just because He said only the Father knows does not mean He did not know.

Jesus did not know, re-read the biblical verses:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Matthew 24:36)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Mark 13:32)

Thats funny, an "All-Knowing" God not knowing something, what kind of God is that?

Jesus and the Father are One.

In purpose not in essence, this is what many Christians assert & they dont know the context of their own scripture. For example Jesus was praying to God for his disciples & he said:

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
(John 17:11)

Obviously the disciples couldn't be "One in Essence" but they could be "One in Purpose"

He simply gave an answer without giving the answer they wanted. He still has not revealed the answer

He can't "reveal" something he doesn't know, duhh?

You are simply making statements here your "simply does not" is based on what? Your agreement with the quran? I don't believe that the quran is inspired by God. So where does that leave us?

Its based on your Bible where God is not omnipotent as its impossible for him to lie. & i gave reasons why he cannot lie.

Look i believe God can do what ever is possible to do. I do not believe God can do anything. Why bring up a point of argument when the other person does not believe God can do anything. God cannot make a rock that is imposable to lift, then lift it.

Thank you, then you understand why the God in Islam cannot become "God Incarnate" or "Beget Children", something cannot be infinite(eternal) & finite(human) at the same time, it will not happen no matter how many "Holy Doctrines" you create.

[Adstar]

Nowhere in the Quran does it say God does not have the power to beget a son, but it considers to whole ideology of an "Incarnate God" as blasphemous.

Then it has to be asked Why does it consider God coming to earth in a mans body blasphemous? Is there something sinful about protons neutrons and electrons The stuff that we are made up of? No, of course the Bible does not claim that God came in a flesh body as a normal sinful man, but that He came sinless and was perfect.

There is nothing sinful about matter & i haven’t made any statement that would assert that, theologically God cannot become or do anything thats "Ungodly". I've given you an example in the Bible already, God cannot lie, the moment he does lie, he ceases to be a God.

Well i agree. God does not lie. Makes me wonder why you mentioned that point?

Its not that God doesn't lie, its impossible for God to lie (as i showed in the Bible), does that make your God less omnipotent? Why can't your God do something that even we mere humans can do? Is he that weak?

God does not lie because He is perfectly Sinless.

Do you get my point? When you assert that the Islamic notion of God is "pathetic" because he can't sexually reproduce a son (the act of begetting), you are turning a blind eye on your short-commings.

What? My short-comings? What has my humanity got to do with Jesus?

And i Do not believe God had sex with anyone. The Word of God became flesh by the action of the Holy Spirit. God did not have to have sexual relations for Adam to come into existence. So the Holy Spirit (God) caused/ created Jesus within Mary. Jesus was not Half Holy Sprit half Mary.

Yes to all these scriptures God is not a liar and Jesus was not a liar. Jesus was without sin.

Im not calling Jesus a liar, im saying the God in Christendom is restricted by his Godhood, which means he cannot lie. Similarly, God in Islam is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot "Beget" family members like humans do.

Yeah, so only One God exists. Of course i believe that your god allah does not exist.

So logical conclusion is the god of allah is not YAVEH the God of Abraham..

Incorrect, the God of Christianity is not Yahweh or Allah its the "Triune Union" (Trinity), as it is absolute blasphemy both in Islam & Judaism for God to beget family members.

See, you are locked into this belief that Christians believe God had sexual relations with Mary. It is a lie, one so often drilled into muslims from an early age that it becomes fact in their minds no matter what a Christian tells them.

I am sure when Jesus was on earth He went to the toilet. Not sure if he still eats though. I think He may have no further need for food. We shall find out in the end.

And again God can do anything that is possible to do. You calling something "ungodly" is just a judgement coming from??? Nowhere but your own mindset.

Its a Judgment comming from theological logic. If God is the self-sustainer (omnipotent), he does not need to eat or excrete because he himself is the essence of existence. He does not have/do what his creation does, that includes eating, sleeping, sex, fingerprints etc...etc..

Of course God does not NEED to do these things. But that fact never excludes the possibility that God may WANT to do these things to achieve something that is a central part of His plan for humanity.

No committing suicide requires one to take their own life. Jesus did not kill Himself. Others wanted to kill him, the Sanhedrin. And they organised His execution. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken and killed. that’s not suicide that i laying down ones life for a cause.

That’s where you don’t seem to understand, according to the doctrine of atonement & blood, Jesus (Logos) became flesh in God's divine plan to redeem mankind of their sins by dying on the cross; meaning it was divinely planned from the beginning it did not happen in random. When you plan your OWN death its called suicide.

No. Your definition of suicide is your definition. God know He would be executed from the foundation of the Word. But again. He did not execute Himself or order others to execute Him. They executed Him by their own free will and the foundational motive was their rejection and hatred for His message.

So no suicide occurred.

Jesus did not order the Sanhedrin to organise His execution. He forknew they would do it because Jesus is God. The Sanhedrin did what they did from their own motivations against Jesus. So again Jesus did not kill Himself.

1) Did they overpower Jesus? Then what kind of God is that?

Of course they did not defeat Him. As if executing Gods flesh vessel would ever end the existence of God. God allowed them to do their will. A big difference. They believed they where having a victory over Jesus but the exact reverse was happening. A great Victory was had on that day.

2) Did Jesus enjoy being crucified & tortured? Then blessed be his torturers.

He did express His desire for them to be forgiven. And we read that on the first day of Pentecost many of them where among the 3000 people who accepted Jesus as Messiah after hearing the Message of Peter.

If you say no to #1 & assert that "God let them crucify Jesus" that means it was suicide, period.

No such period exists Murad.

Well i don't belong to the greek or russian orthodox religions. You may as well be talking about islam.

You can see the confusion within Christendom on who Jesus exactly is.
You have:
1) Unitarians
2) Trinitarians
3) Believers in the Divine Sonship/Rejecters of the Divine Sonship
4) Doctrine of Hypostatic Union
5) Doctrine of Kenosis

& The list goes on, so when you say Jesus wasn't a DemiGod, you are only representing one side of Christianity. Though the word "DemiGod" isn't used, its literally what is ment.

Well Murad at this moment you are discussing things with me. We are discussing God. This is not a discussion between you and an official spokesman for some denomination/sect/what ever. It is between you and me and what we believe. Maybe it is best not to put each other in theological boxes.

Jesus was not going to reveal the day. Just because He said only the Father knows does not mean He did not know.

Jesus did not know, re-read the biblical verses:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Matthew 24:36)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Mark 13:32)

This is what makes the nature of the connection between The Father and the Word and the Holy Spirit not fully knowable for us. That’s what makes it a Mystery.

Jesus and the Father are One.

In purpose not in essence, this is what many Christians assert & they dont know the context of their own scripture. For example Jesus was praying to God for his disciples & he said:

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
(John 17:11)

Obviously the disciples couldn't be "One in Essence" but they could be "One in Purpose"

No no no. Much more than just purpose.

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.�
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.�
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Its based on your Bible where God is not omnipotent as its impossible for him to lie. & i gave reasons why he cannot lie.

Look i believe God can do what ever is possible to do. I do not believe God can do anything. Why bring up a point of argument when the other person does not believe God can do anything. God cannot make a rock that is imposable to lift, then lift it.

Thank you, then you understand why the God in Islam cannot become "God Incarnate" or "Beget Children", something cannot be infinite(eternal) & finite(human) at the same time, it will not happen no matter how many "Holy Doctrines" you create.

Once again you trying to put God lieing and God becoming flesh into the same box. They are totally two different issues. One is Moral the other has nothing to do with morality.

Once again i do not believe that Jesus was a faulty man like me. He was born without Sin and was perfect in all morals. Even all the organised christian denominations you mentioned don't believe Jesus was a normal man like us. But islam and you cannot or will not see the difference. Cannot make the distinction. Cannot take hold of the magnificent truth that the Word of God who was with God and was God in the beginning became flesh.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Murad]

Nowhere in the Quran does it say God does not have the power to beget a son, but it considers to whole ideology of an "Incarnate God" as blasphemous.

Then it has to be asked Why does it consider God coming to earth in a mans body blasphemous? Is there something sinful about protons neutrons and electrons The stuff that we are made up of? No, of course the Bible does not claim that God came in a flesh body as a normal sinful man, but that He came sinless and was perfect.

There is nothing sinful about matter & i haven’t made any statement that would assert that, theologically God cannot become or do anything thats "Ungodly". I've given you an example in the Bible already, God cannot lie, the moment he does lie, he ceases to be a God.

Well i agree. God does not lie. Makes me wonder why you mentioned that point?

Its not that God doesn't lie, its impossible for God to lie (as i showed in the Bible), does that make your God less omnipotent? Why can't your God do something that even we mere humans can do? Is he that weak?

God does not lie because He is perfectly Sinless.

Sin is subjected to God, he defines what Sin is, so obviously he cannot Sin.
But lets say 2+2=4, God cannot tell you that 2+2=47 because he cannot lie, his restricted to truthhood.

Do you get my point? When you assert that the Islamic notion of God is "pathetic" because he can't sexually reproduce a son (the act of begetting), you are turning a blind eye on your short-commings.

What? My short-comings? What has my humanity got to do with Jesus?

Your short comming is your God cannot "Lie", its impossible, something mere humans can do.

So why do you expect the Islamic God to have Children?

And i Do not believe God had sex with anyone. The Word of God became flesh by the action of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is a peron of the Triune Union & a God by itself. It sure does sound like this "Holy Spirit" had some sort of sexual relationship with Mary, just read how Luke is worded:

The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
(Luke 1:35)

"Come upon you"
"Overshadow you"

God did not have to have sexual relations for Adam to come into existence.

And this is exactly what Islam teaches:

The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.
[Quran 3:59]

So the Holy Spirit (God) caused/ created Jesus within Mary. Jesus was not Half Holy Sprit half Mary.

No, Jesus was "Fully God" & "Fully Man" according to Christendom, like saying Jesus was "Fully Circle" & "Fully Square". Illogical.

Yes to all these scriptures God is not a liar and Jesus was not a liar. Jesus was without sin.

Im not calling Jesus a liar, im saying the God in Christendom is restricted by his Godhood, which means he cannot lie. Similarly, God in Islam is restricted by his Godhood, he cannot "Beget" family members like humans do.

Yeah, so only One God exists. Of course i believe that your god allah does not exist.

No you believe in 3 seperate Gods who exist as 1 God; Judaism & Islam believes in absolute monotheism.

So logical conclusion is the god of allah is not YAVEH the God of Abraham..

Incorrect, the God of Christianity is not Yahweh or Allah its the "Triune Union" (Trinity), as it is absolute blasphemy both in Islam & Judaism for God to beget family members.

See, you are locked into this belief that Christians believe God had sexual relations with Mary. It is a lie, one so often drilled into muslims from an early age that it becomes fact in their minds no matter what a Christian tells them.

I do not believe God had sexual relations with Mary, thats why your Bible allusively asserts in Luke 1:35. The mere fact that Christianity has multiple doctrines to cover up theological contradictions is proof that its a false religion.

I am sure when Jesus was on earth He went to the toilet. Not sure if he still eats though. I think He may have no further need for food. We shall find out in the end.

And again God can do anything that is possible to do. You calling something "ungodly" is just a judgement coming from??? Nowhere but your own mindset.

Its a Judgment comming from theological logic. If God is the self-sustainer (omnipotent), he does not need to eat or excrete because he himself is the essence of existence. He does not have/do what his creation does, that includes eating, sleeping, sex, fingerprints etc...etc..

Of course God does not NEED to do these things. But that fact never excludes the possibility that God may WANT to do these things to achieve something that is a central part of His plan for humanity.

It does not solely have to do with "Needs", God can "Need to Lie" but he still wouldn't be able to according to the Bible, because its impossible for him to lie.
Similarly in Islam, God cannot do anything ungodly.

No committing suicide requires one to take their own life. Jesus did not kill Himself. Others wanted to kill him, the Sanhedrin. And they organised His execution. Jesus allowed Himself to be taken and killed. that’s not suicide that i laying down ones life for a cause.

That’s where you don’t seem to understand, according to the doctrine of atonement & blood, Jesus (Logos) became flesh in God's divine plan to redeem mankind of their sins by dying on the cross; meaning it was divinely planned from the beginning it did not happen in random. When you plan your OWN death its called suicide.

No. Your definition of suicide is your definition. God know He would be executed from the foundation of the Word.

Absolutely Illogical.
Its like walking infront of a moving car; if you know about the danger of walking infront of a moving car & yet still do; either you are an idiot or you are comitting suicide.

But again. He did not execute Himself or order others to execute Him. They executed Him by their own free will and the foundational motive was their rejection and hatred for His message.

So if you walked infront of a moving car, would that be considered suicide or an act of idiocy?

So no suicide occurred.

Well im sure you tell yourself that.

Jesus did not order the Sanhedrin to organise His execution. He forknew they would do it because Jesus is God. The Sanhedrin did what they did from their own motivations against Jesus. So again Jesus did not kill Himself.

1) Did they overpower Jesus? Then what kind of God is that?

Of course they did not defeat Him. As if executing Gods flesh vessel would ever end the existence of God. God allowed them to do their will. A big difference. They believed they where having a victory over Jesus but the exact reverse was happening. A great Victory was had on that day.

How did Jesus have a "great victory"? Last time i checked in the Bible Jesus prayed to God to remove the cup of death & yet he died a miserable death on the cross. Jesus showed no desire of dying, obviously the pharisees were stronger than your God.

2) Did Jesus enjoy being crucified & tortured? Then blessed be his torturers.

He did express His desire for them to be forgiven.

Why should they be forgiven? If it wasn't for them you would be in hell because nobody would have "redeemed" your sins right? No, i think Christianity asserts the torturers of Jesus were noble men doing God's work, if it wasn't for them you would still be law followers according to Paul.

If you say no to #1 & assert that "God let them crucify Jesus" that means it was suicide, period.

No such period exists Murad.

Did God/Jesus allow the men to torture/crucify Jesus, or did the pharisees overpower Jesus? Which option do you choose? Either God allows them to torture Jesus or the men overpower Jesus.

Jesus was not going to reveal the day. Just because He said only the Father knows does not mean He did not know.

Jesus did not know, re-read the biblical verses:

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Matthew 24:36)

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(Mark 13:32)

This is what makes the nature of the connection between The Father and the Word and the Holy Spirit not fully knowable for us. That’s what makes it a Mystery.

Mystery = Makes no sense

I always wonder to myself how one could deceive themselves into believing a square-circle is an actual shape. How on earth is Jesus "Fully God" if he didn't wasn't omniscient? I get it, its another "Holy Mystery".

Jesus and the Father are One.

In purpose not in essence, this is what many Christians assert & they dont know the context of their own scripture. For example Jesus was praying to God for his disciples & he said:

I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name--the name you gave me--so that they may be one as we are one.
(John 17:11)

Obviously the disciples couldn't be "One in Essence" but they could be "One in Purpose"

No no no. Much more than just purpose.

I will get to John 14 later, do you accept that your "I and the Father are one" quotation is completely out of context & deceptive as i have just shown you?

John 14
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.�
8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.�
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

I can't disagree with anything here.
1) Jesus was the way, the truth and the life. This applies to every prophet preaching the messege of God.
2) Yes no one went to the Father except through him, the same way nobody went to God except through Moses in his time. It applies to every prophet in their time period.

And as you can see the bolded, Jesus does not speak on his own authority, it is God(The Father) that decides what Jesus should preach. Can you imagine "God Al-Mighty" taking orders from someone else?

Its based on your Bible where God is not omnipotent as its impossible for him to lie. & i gave reasons why he cannot lie.

Look i believe God can do what ever is possible to do. I do not believe God can do anything. Why bring up a point of argument when the other person does not believe God can do anything. God cannot make a rock that is imposable to lift, then lift it.

Thank you, then you understand why the God in Islam cannot become "God Incarnate" or "Beget Children", something cannot be infinite(eternal) & finite(human) at the same time, it will not happen no matter how many "Holy Doctrines" you create.

Once again you trying to put God lieing and God becoming flesh into the same box. They are totally two different issues. One is Moral the other has nothing to do with morality.

Morality is completely irrelevant, morals are absolute to God, he decides what's moral.

If God is restricted to telling the truth because of his Godhood, you can understand why God cannot beget children, because of his Godhood.

Once again i do not believe that Jesus was a faulty man like me. He was born without Sin and was perfect in all morals. Even all the organised christian denominations you mentioned don't believe Jesus was a normal man like us.

I agree Jesus was not "Faulty", i do not see any of the Prophets "Faulty".

But islam and you cannot or will not see the difference. Cannot make the distinction.

Yes we do not belive in DemiGods or the Hypostatic Union or a heretical Trinitarian Union or the concept of 'Divine Sonship' or the fact that God came down as a human & got himself killed so that he wouldn't be angry at his creation.

Cannot take hold of the magnificent truth that the Word of God who was with God and was God in the beginning became flesh.

The truth is there & its a wonderful truth, you have to first get rid of illogical "Mysteries" that block the path to truth.