What does Isl�m mean to you?

[Pazuzu bin Hanbi]

Hello there folks. When I used to follow Isl�m, I always wanted to know people’s reasons why they turned to this religion, and what made them strong in their faith, what experiences they had. I admired, about the Christian community, their dedication to a living, breathing connection to their saviour.

In Isl�m, I mostly read boring, dry, legalistic, copy & paste type texts which would bang on at length about the necessities of praying, fasting, and suchlike. To which I would reply: “I know. It’s in the qur’�n.� I wanted more personal details, such as when my father told me he turned to the qur’�n for solace and comfort after his father died, and grew more and more religious.

So, I ask you: what does Isl�m mean to you? Personally?

I would also like to ask this of any non–muslims reading this as well: you may hear about muslims in the news, know a few people who have turned to Isl�m and whatnot, but what does it mean to YOU?

[good]

Islam does not hold the mistakes to a Muslim


Personal foul, and Islam is innocent from the mistakes of a Muslim

[Woland]

Hello good,

Muhammad in the Bible of your tags if you believe you must believe in Muhammad and the Islamic religion

I have no idea what you were trying to say exactly, but it certainly sounds as if you made a doubly irrelevant comment since

1. I do not believe that Abrahamic religions are anything else than man-made nonsense. The Bible means nothing to me - same as the Quran.

2. Even if I did accept the unsubstantiated (and sometimes unfalsifiable) nonsense at face value, it would change absolutely nothing to the demonstrable fact that Muhammad was an ignorant, intolerant, lecherous, petty, cruel, violent, greedy desert warlord.

-Woland

[good]

Hello good,

Muhammad in the Bible of your tags if you believe you must believe in Muhammad and the Islamic religion

I have no idea what you were trying to say exactly, but it certainly sounds as if you made a doubly irrelevant comment since

1. I do not believe that Abrahamic religions are anything else than man-made nonsense. The Bible means nothing to me - same as the Quran.

2. Even if I did accept the unsubstantiated (and sometimes unfalsifiable) nonsense at face value, it would change absolutely nothing to the demonstrable fact that Muhammad was an ignorant, intolerant, lecherous, petty, cruel, violent, greedy desert warlord.

-Woland

hi Woland
How are you doingØŸ

You do not believe in the existence of God ?

[EduChris]

...Aisha was "9" when she married our Prophet...

Well at least you admit this. Many Islamic apologists lie about her age.

...Joseph, Mary's husband, was "90 years old" when he married...

This must be some strange and unsupportable Islamic notion. Where did you come up with this?

...In the Islamic countries, the media is being used to create hate for the westerners.

Quite true.

...In the western countries, the media is being used to create hate for the muslims.

False. Our mainstream media does backflips trying to promote the idea that Islam is a religion of peace.

...Take Indonesia for example, even though it has the largest concentration of muslims in the world, homosexuality is completetly legal...

In Indonesia, Homosexuality will get you whipped and/or imprisoned.

[cnorman18]

I don't care for perjorative stereotypes and negative assumptions when they are applied to my own religion, and I don't intend to tolerate them when applied to the faith of others.

Here is a symposium published in The Wall Street Journal's Opinion supplement on September 1 of this year.

These are actual, real, faithful Muslims who practice an authentic, non-extremist faith which they regard, and I think rightly, as genuine Islam. The existence of such Muslims, or at least their status as "real Muslims," is apparently denied by many members here.

Here are a few of their voices:

Skeptics and cynics alike have said that the quest for the moderate Muslim in the 21st century is akin to the search for the Holy Grail. It's not hard to understand why. Terrorist attacks, suicide bombings and the jihadist call for Muslims "to rise up against the oppression of the West" are widespread.

The radical fringe carrying out such actions has sought to dominate the discourse between Islam and the West. In order to do so, they've set out to foment anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism. They've also advocated indiscriminate violence as a political strategy. To cap their victory, this abysmal lot uses the cataclysm of 9/11 as a lesson for the so-called enemies of Islam.

These dastardly acts have not only been tragedies of untold proportions for those who have suffered or perished. They have also delivered a calamitous blow to followers of the Muslim faith.

These are the Muslims who go about their lives like ordinary people—earning their livings, raising their families, celebrating reunions and praying for security and peace. These are the Muslims who have never carried a pocketknife, let alone explosives intended to destroy buildings. These Muslims are there for us to see, if only we can lift the veil cast on them by the shadowy figures in bomb-laden jackets hell-bent on destruction.

These are mainstream Muslims—no different from the moderate Christians, Jews and those of other faiths—whose identities have been drowned by events beyond their control. The upshot is a composite picture of Muslims as inherently intolerant, antidemocratic, inward-looking and simply unable to coexist with other communities in the modern world. Some say there is only one solution: Discard your beliefs and your tradition, and embrace pluralism and modernity.

This prescription is deeply flawed. The vast majority of Muslims already see themselves as part of a civilization that is heir to a noble tradition of science, philosophy and spirituality that places paramount importance on the sanctity of human life. Holding fast to the principles of democracy, freedom and human rights, these hundreds of millions of Muslims fervently reject fanaticism in all its varied guises....

A form of moderation has been a central part of Islam from the very beginning. True, Muslims are nowhere commanded to love their neighbors, as in the Old Testament, still less their enemies, as in the New Testament. But they are commanded to accept diversity, and this commandment was usually obeyed. The Prophet Muhammad's statement that "difference within my community is part of God's mercy" expressed one of Islam's central ideas, and it is enshrined both in law and usage from the earliest times.

This principle created a level of tolerance among Muslims and coexistence between Muslims and others that was unknown in Christendom until after the triumph of secularism. Diversity was legitimate and accepted. Different juristic schools coexisted, often with significant divergences.

Sectarian differences arose, and sometimes led to conflicts, but these were minor compared with the ferocious wars and persecutions of Christendom. Some events that were commonplace in medieval Europe— like the massacre and expulsion of Jews—were almost unknown in the Muslim world. That is, until modern times....

I am a moderate Muslim, yet I don't like being termed a "moderate"—it somehow implies that I am less of a Muslim.

We use the designation "moderate Islam" to differentiate it from "radical Islam." But in so doing, we insinuate that while Islam in moderation is tolerable, real Islam—often perceived as radical Islam—is intolerable. This simplistic, flawed thinking hands our extremist enemies a propaganda victory: They are genuine Muslims. In this rubric, the majority, non-radical Muslim populace has somehow compromised Islam to become moderate.

What is moderate Christianity? Or moderate Judaism? Is Pastor Terry Jones's commitment to burning the Quran authentic Christianity, by virtue of the fanaticism of his action? Or, is Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the spiritual head of the Shas Party in Israel, more Jewish because he calls on Jews to rain missiles on the Arabs and "annihilate them"?

The pastor and the rabbi can, no doubt, find abstruse scriptural justifications for their angry actions. And so it is with Islam's fringe: Our radicals find religious excuses for their political anger. But Muslim fanatics cannot be allowed to define Islam....

In the intense discussion about Muslims today, non-Muslims often say to me: "You are a moderate, but are there others like you?"

Clearly, the use of the term moderate here is meant as a compliment. But the application of the term creates more problems than it solves. The term is heavy with value judgment, smacking of "good guy" versus "bad guy" categories. And it implies that while a minority of Muslims are moderate, the rest are not.

Having studied the practices of Muslims around the world today, I've come up with three broad categories: mystic, modernist and literalist. Of course, I must add the caveat that these are analytic models and aren't watertight.

Muslims in the mystic category reflect universal humanism, believing in "peace with all." The 13th-century Sufi poet Rumi exemplifies this category. In his verses, he glorifies worshipping the same God in the synagogue, the church and the mosque.

The second category is the modernist Muslim who believes in trying to balance tradition and modernity. The modernist is proud of Islam and yet able to live comfortably in, and contribute to, Western society.

Most Muslim leaders who led nationalist movements in the first half of the 20th century were modernists—from Sultan Mohammed V, the first king of independent Morocco, to M.A. Jinnah, who founded Pakistan in 1947. But as modernists failed over time, becoming increasingly incompetent and corrupt, the literalists stepped into the breach.

The literalists believe that Muslim behavior must approximate that of the Prophet in seventh-century Arabia. Their belief that Islam is under attack forces many of them to adopt a defensive posture. And while not all literalists advocate violence, many do. Movements like the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, and the Taliban belong to this category.

In the Muslim world the divisions between the three categories I have delineated are real. The outcome of their struggle will define Islam's fate....

And on that note, I would ask this: Would it not be wiser to come down on the side of those Muslims, and the majority of Muslims, who DO practice the authentic and ancient traditions of tolerance, respect and pluralism that are integral to their faith, rather than to join with and support and confirm the correctness of extremists who deny that those traditions are as essential to Islam as monotheism?

I'll say it again; if you look for evil in people (and Islam is more than a body of teachings; it is people), you will find it; and if you look for good, you will find that too. Would you prefer that Muslims look to Terry Jones to learn the truth about Christianity and Meir Kahane to learn the truth about Judiaism?

And, to those who propose simply abandoning and rejecting ALL religion as an "answer" -- well, good luck with that program. Your efforts might be better spent by finding an actual windmill to challenge to a jousting match.

These Muslims - and there are millions of them - seek a world where their own religion exhibits respect, understanding and brotherhood for and with those of other faiths or none. How can we "enlightened" people of the West do less?

[Woland]

Hello good,

Muhammad in the Bible of your tags if you believe you must believe in Muhammad and the Islamic religion

I have no idea what you were trying to say exactly, but it certainly sounds as if you made a doubly irrelevant comment since

1. I do not believe that Abrahamic religions are anything else than man-made nonsense. The Bible means nothing to me - same as the Quran.

2. Even if I did accept the unsubstantiated (and sometimes unfalsifiable) nonsense at face value, it would change absolutely nothing to the demonstrable fact that Muhammad was an ignorant, intolerant, lecherous, petty, cruel, violent, greedy desert warlord.

-Woland

hi Woland
How are you doingØŸ

You do not believe in the existence of God ?

Hello good, I am doing quite well.

No, I do not believe in the existence of any personal, intelligent, or conscious God and will not do so until verifiable, valid evidence is presented to support this notion.

[Woland]

Hello cnorman18,

And on that note, I would ask this: Would it not be wiser to come down on the side of those Muslims, and the majority of Muslims, who DO practice the authentic and ancient traditions of tolerance, respect and pluralism that are integral to their faith,

Do you have any evidence to support the claim that tolerance, respect and pluralism are integral to Islam?

Do you have any evidence that the majority of Muslims subscribe to the values which you mentioned (using standard modern definitions of tolerance, respect, pluralism)?

As I've already pointed out, Muslim society is rife with people like Murad, who distance themselves from "fanatics" all the while supporting an untold number of oppresive or violent policies - policies which are sanctioned by mainstream clerics in Sunni and Shia denominations, and which have been practiced as an integral part of Islam since the dawn of this hateful cult.

Examples include oppression of and iniquity towards women, apostates, homosexuals and non-Muslims in general.

rather than to join with and support and confirm the correctness of extremists who deny that those traditions are as essential to Islam as monotheism?

They aren't.

The Islamic idea of tolerance as expressed by widely accepted scholars who based their knowledge on the most sacred sources of Islam implies the treatment of non-Muslims (of certain faiths, like Christians and Jews) as second-class citizens with less rights (proselytizing, worshipping, etc.) and special taxes.

For starters.

-Woland

[EduChris]

...These are actual, real, faithful Muslims who practice an authentic, non-extremist faith which they regard, and I think rightly, as genuine Islam...

I tend to be as critical of Muslims as anyone, and that is because 99.9% of the ones I encounter here on these forums are dishonest and calculating. However, I will admit that I have found two Muslims (both women, interestingly enough) who did seem honest and open to constructive dialogue. Moreover, I have known a few gracious and kind Muslims from Africa, and they seem to be of an entirely different and better sort than any of the Arab Muslims I've encountered personally. I also knew some African students from my seminary days who say that Christian-Islamic relations in parts of Africa are very friendly, to the extent that Christians attend the wedding celebrations of their Islamic neighbors, and vice-versa. And lastly, one of my professors in seminary was a Pakistani convert to Christianity from Islam, and even though he suffered imprisonment and torture at the hand of the Pakistani authorities, he still claimed that the everyday Muslims he knows in Pakistan would be gracious and hospitable enough that he would have no qualms at all in taking our entire class to Pakistan and finding safe and comfortable lodgings for us in a Mosque.

It's good to keep these sorts of things in mind.

[cnorman18]

Hello cnorman18,

And on that note, I would ask this: Would it not be wiser to come down on the side of those Muslims, and the majority of Muslims, who DO practice the authentic and ancient traditions of tolerance, respect and pluralism that are integral to their faith,

Do you have any evidence to support the claim that tolerance, respect and pluralism are integral to Islam?

Do you have any evidence that the majority of Muslims subscribe to the values which you mentioned (using standard modern definitions of tolerance, respect, pluralism)?

As I've already pointed out, Muslim society is rife with people like Murad, who distance themselves from "fanatics" all the while supporting an untold number of oppresive or violent policies - policies which are sanctioned by mainstream clerics in Sunni and Shia denominations, and which have been practiced as an integral part of Islam since the dawn of this hateful cult.

Examples include oppression of and iniquity towards women, apostates, homosexuals and non-Muslims in general.

rather than to join with and support and confirm the correctness of extremists who deny that those traditions are as essential to Islam as monotheism?

They aren't.

The Islamic idea of tolerance as expressed by widely accepted scholars who based their knowledge on the most sacred sources of Islam implies the treatment of non-Muslims (of certain faiths, like Christians and Jews) as second-class citizens with less rights (proselytizing, worshipping, etc.) and special taxes.

For starters.

-Woland

If you're just going to reject and dismiss the remarks of the Muslim scholars and thinkers that I have posted here as "evidence," as well as the rest of the discussion presented in the article to which my post was linked, I don't think I have anything more to say. There is dialogue and discussion and respect, and there is obdurate and obstinate rejection of the same; and the latter is not worth my time to oppose.

I have always said that Jews, and only Jews, are qualified or have the right to define Judaism. I would also say that Muslims, and only Muslims, are qualified or have the right to define Islam.

You aren't, and don't.

[EduChris]

...the remarks of the Muslim scholars and thinkers that I have posted here...

The difficulty that I have found with many Muslims is that they tend to follow the example and teaching of Mohammad. Islamic records do show that Mohammad practiced deceit against non-Muslims, and therefore many Muslims today practice deceit (the Islamic term is taqiyya) in their dealings with non-Muslims. Given this practice, how can you tell when a Muslim is being sincere? Woland has already pointed out the inconsistencies with Murad, and Murad is quite typical of the sort of Islamic apologists that are routinely encountered on Internet forums.

The bottom line is, it would be nice to find honest, sincere, knowledgable Muslims with whom to interact and learn--but it does seem that the more knowledgable the Muslim is, the more prone he is to follow the example and teaching of Mohammad. And that is where the problems start.