Head-to-head against otseng

[otseng]

There has been some interest shown in debating me head-to-head on the evidence for God.

Here is what we'll debate: Which is a more rational position to hold - God exists or God does not exist?

If you are interested in debating me, post here in this thread. If there is more than one, then you can choose among yourselves who will debate me.

[otseng]

What does it mean that God exists, if he is said to be outside of time and space? Should the question be asked here or should we wait for the actual debate?

Yes, God would exist outside of time and space since it created both time and space.

[Goat]

I wonder if our preachers were poor and lived amongst the people our world might be better?

Just for the record; most preachers do live among the people, and very, very few of them are rich.

When I was a minister, I lived in the towns where my churches were, in homes provided by the congregation; in east Oklahoma it was a trailer. My top salary was $550 a month, and that was peanuts even in 1975. That sprt of thing was pretty common back then, and still is.

You can't get rich as a minister unless you have a TV show.

That depends. I have seen a lot of ministers around that are poor, but I have seen some riding in new model cars buying steak and lobster at the local grocery story (and paying with church checks).

I just hope that the lobster and steak were for a church dinner.

[McCulloch]

What does it mean that God exists, if he is said to be outside of time and space? Should the question be asked here or should we wait for the actual debate?

Yes, God would exist outside of time and space since it created both time and space.

What does it mean to exist outside of time and space? When we say that something exists, we mean that there is at least one time and place where the thing we say exists or existed is made manifest. What then does it mean to say that something exists outside of time and space?

[otseng]

What does it mean to exist outside of time and space? When we say that something exists, we mean that there is at least one time and place where the thing we say exists or existed is made manifest. What then does it mean to say that something exists outside of time and space?

Of course when we normally use the word "exist", it typically refers to within our 3 dimensional space plus time. Existing outside of this simply means not within our 3D+T.

[FinalEnigma]

Does the god in question necessarily have to interact with the universe? or can it be the 'create it and walk away' type?

[otseng]

Does the god in question necessarily have to interact with the universe?

No.

or can it be the 'create it and walk away' type?

Yes.

After this debate, we can then have a separate debate if such God interacts with it.

[McCulloch]

What does it mean to exist outside of time and space? When we say that something exists, we mean that there is at least one time and place where the thing we say exists or existed is made manifest. What then does it mean to say that something exists outside of time and space?

Of course when we normally use the word "exist", it typically refers to within our 3 dimensional space plus time. Existing outside of this simply means not within our 3D+T.

No, when we use the word "exist", it always refers to within our space time continuum (3D+T), except if we speak of God. However you did not actually address the question of what it means to exist outside of space time. Is that something that should be addressed here or in the debate about the existence of God?

I would be willing to have a casual head-to-head about the rationality of belief in the existence of an intelligent intentional creator of the space time continuum.

[otseng]

No, when we use the word "exist", it always refers to within our space time continuum (3D+T), except if we speak of God.

No, other things also are talked about as well that are not within our 3D+T. M-theory is one that comes to mind.

However you did not actually address the question of what it means to exist outside of space time. Is that something that should be addressed here or in the debate about the existence of God?

Is this headed towards the philosophical meaning of existence? If so, I'm not really interested in debating that.

I would be willing to have a casual head-to-head about the rationality of belief in the existence of an intelligent intentional creator of the space time continuum.

And would you be willing to argue about the rationality that such an entity does not exist?

[McCulloch]

[W]hen we use the word "exist", it always refers to within our space time continuum (3D+T), except if we speak of God.

No, other things also are talked about as well that are not within our 3D+T. M-theory is one that comes to mind.

Is it that M-theory exists or that m-theory posits that things exist outside of space-time?

However you did not actually address the question of what it means to exist outside of space time. Is that something that should be addressed here or in the debate about the existence of God?

Is this headed towards the philosophical meaning of existence? If so, I'm not really interested in debating that.

I would like to avoid that topic, but I cannot see how to debate the existence of a God outside of space time without a discussion of what it means to exist.

I would be willing to have a casual head-to-head about the rationality of belief in the existence of an intelligent intentional creator of the space time continuum.

And would you be willing to argue about the rationality that such an entity does not exist?

I am not sure. I would be willing to argue against the proposition that believing in such an entity is rational. Are you wanting to turn it around and have me debate that not believing in such a being is rational? I am not quite sure of the distinction.

How about something like this:

God is defined to be the intelligent intentional creator of the universe. Is belief or disbelief in such an entity more rational?

[otseng]

No, other things also are talked about as well that are not within our 3D+T. M-theory is one that comes to mind.

Is it that M-theory exists or that m-theory posits that things exist outside of space-time?

This seems to be turning into a debate on its own.

In theoretical physics, M-theory is an extension of string theory in which 11 dimensions are identified.

A membrane, or brane, is a multidimensional object, usually called a P-brane, with P referring to the number of dimensions in which it exists. The value of 'P' can range from zero to nine, thus giving branes dimensions from zero (0-brane ≡ point particle) to nine - five more than the world we are accustomed to inhabiting (3 spatial and 1 time).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-theory

Here, things outside of our 3D+T is posited to "exist" in M-theory.

I would like to avoid that topic, but I cannot see how to debate the existence of a God outside of space time without a discussion of what it means to exist.

Here's one definition:
"to be, especially to be a real, actual, or current thing, not merely something imagined or written about"
Bing

I am not sure. I would be willing to argue against the proposition that believing in such an entity is rational. Are you wanting to turn it around and have me debate that not believing in such a being is rational? I am not quite sure of the distinction.

How about something like this:

God is defined to be the intelligent intentional creator of the universe. Is belief or disbelief in such an entity more rational?

To me, the distinction is between the two claims:
- God exists (or if you prefer, God is a real entity)
- God does not exist (God is only a product of human imagination)