Homosexuality

[Daystar]

Italy's nominee to become the European Union's Justice and Home Affairs commissioner failed on Monday to win the backing of the European Parliament's Justice Committee, days after testifying that he considers homosexuality a sin.

The panel narrowly failed to endorse Rocco Buttiglione, who is currently Italy's European Affairs minister, said Jean-Louis Bourlanges, chairman of the Justice Committee.

Buttiglione said that he would fight for the rights of homosexuals, but would not back away from his statement that the lifestyle is sinful.

Isn't this the way it should be? Fight for the rights of homosexuals, but individuals, but define their lifestyle as sinful (Lev. 18:22).

[palmera]

Mel,

We all sin and have our faults. I am just saying either through theology or natural human reason, homosexuality is a disorder.

Christ ate and associated with sinners but at the same time he didn't condone their sins.

Homosexuality is something you should work to at least abstain from and I'm not saying it is easy for you.

Who are you to tell someone how to live hi/her life? That NARTH website... scary! Homosexuality is not a disorder. Sure, you can make a twisted theological claim that it is so... or you can dellude yourself into thinking that it's not natural (read a book on sexuality throughout nature)- but don't throw that on someone else telling them they're sinners for being who they are.

[melikio]

Mel,

We all sin and have our faults. I am just saying either through theology or natural human reason, homosexuality is a disorder.

Christ ate and associated with sinners but at the same time he didn't condone their sins.

Homosexuality is something you should work to at least abstain from and I'm not saying it is easy for you.

Your words don't mean a lot to me, jjg; your ACTIONS/demeanor apart from those words can bolster or tear a person down completely (especially in the spiritual and social sense).

I just want you to know (understand and consciously realize) that what you said above, is nothing I (and a multitude of other homosexuals) haven't had shoved down my throat or even said to myself countless times (it rings hollow). A homosexual who is a Christian (in this society), carries more weight than you seem to acknowledge. I understand that, but it needs to change (as it has been), it is neither just nor right for those people to carry the bulk of the burden for human sexuality across the board. That is what people do from their "Christian" and "moral" soap boxes, while it seems (especially today) that heterosexual people get a free pass (by comparison). You can't even question much of what heterosexuals do, and not be called "gay". That is hypocritical, and a symptom of the spiritual neuroses (concerning human sexuality) that I've been trying to point out in my posts all along.

This is not just "not easy", it is the most continuous and often excruciating thing to deal with amongst other Christians (particularly). I can't read your heart, so I'm not judging you one iota, merely pointing out that NOT BEING GAY (or not acting upon it), is CONTINUOUSLY as hard for me as you not being STRAIGHT. And being Christian doesn't stop anyone from being HUMAN; I used to believe it did, but over 35+ years of struggle with something that is clearly stronger than a mere passing "choice" or "urge", definitely affects the way one looks at reality.

So, I agree that those who believe homosexuality (acts or orientation) is a sin, should hold and relate to that mindset. Even so, it is very important that those who are not homosexual and believe it is "wrong", carefully regard their treatment of those who they believe, think or know are sinners. I underwent a lot of mental and emotional abuse by Christians, who had nothing encouraging to say, nothing to hold onto in a very cold and confusing world (something many homosexually-oriented people are very familiar with).

If Christianity is as just, compassionate and "loving" as many proclaim, then the "social" behaviors and related enviroments surrounding it should reflect that; that is not what I've consistently experienced...no matter how
gay/not gay I happened to be (at any given moment).

Being a homosexual all of your life (and seeking Christian fellowship) is not only "not easy", it is something that only the agape love of God THROUGH believers in Christ can fathom and deal with properly (the same thing that has given me power for living and caring for others. The phoney "spirituality" many try to pass off as speaking for God, is easily recognized for what it is...because of its lack of both LOVE and COMPASSION. (What "Jesus" are we supposed to be following?)

Most gay people either cannot or will not be "straight"; celibacy is an option for some, but before you or anyone can speak as if that's a mere choice or mindset...you likely need to think it through a lot more, in order for you touch upon something real/sensible or loving/compassionate. And until those things are detected flowing from your very being (components of true love), then you will be literally powerless to touch the heart of any given sinner, in the helpful ways God has called for.

-Mel-

[melikio]

http://www.bridges-across.org/ba/campolo.htm

AUDIO: http://www.gaychristian.net/campolos.html

[melikio]

I know that the motives behind much of the opposition to homosexuality, amounts to people putting on an act; I don't pursue the offenders personally or directly, but I do try to point it out socially.

The commentary at the following link expresses a lot of what many dealing with homosexuality often feel and endure socially: http://gbb.galacforums.com/Gays4God/vie ... omosexual.

Spiritually, it's all heavy ENOUGH for gay people, but it is important to point out and expose where PEOPLE decide that they MUST ADD extra weight to what many homosexuals are already carrying around as human beings. What shouldn't have surprised or bothered so many today, is that homosexual people (who have ALWAYS BEEN THERE) would eventually stand up (or stand out) for the humanity within themselves; nothing in the Bible promotes the idea that we are truly "above" being human (flawed). Too many people seem to think that riding the BACKS of gay people is going to do something wonderful for God, or force gays into a "cure"...etc. Well, those people need to be more realistic than that...compassion and real love would go so much further toward such "realism".

-Mel-

[bernee51]

bernee, i will disagree with you and leave it at that. We have intuitive knowledge of ethics; root ethics

I don't agree with your view of 'root ethics'. We do not have an intuitive knowledge of ethics - ethics and morality are learned (and I'm sure we have learned more in common than the opposite). We have an intuitive knowledge of 'survival'.

You have been taught and adhere to a certain morality. I have been taught differently. Who is right - your or me?

We all sin and have our faults.

We all have our faults, agreed, but we all do not sin. In order to sin a god belief is required. I do not have such a belief - ergo I cannot sin.

I am just saying either through theology or natural human reason, homosexuality is a disorder.

Your theology and your reasoning. Others may reason differntly. Are you suggesting that those that don't reason like you are not human?

Christ ate and associated with sinners but at the same time he didn't condone their sins.

Or so it is said in the bible.

Homosexuality is something you should work to at least abstain from....

Why, it is none of your business what people do in the privacy of their own lives.

[jjg]

Bernie, Mel says he is Christian and i'm speaking to him from a Christian point of view.

[jjg]

Mel, are you saying that scripture doesn't explicitely say that homosexuality act is a sin?

[melikio]

Mel, are you saying that scripture doesn't explicitely say that homosexuality act is a sin?

Not necessarily am I saying what is/isn't sin; get that out of your head, where it concerns my input.

But I am emphasizing and exposing the kind of "treatment" which homosexual people (active or not) are subjected to by these "Christians" and this society at large; it is a massive problem period.

Whether or not one believes it is moral or immoral (according to Scripture), that is indeed debatable (at the very least).

It is clear to me, that the average (inexperienced and uncompassionate) "Christian" cannot help a homosexual person, anymore than God already has/does. YOU cannot cure this, YOU cannot turn this OFF, YOU cannot scare anyone into being STRAIGHT using the Bible. There are many scenarios in existence where HETERO-sexuality is no less immoral than anything else...but you don't see people jumping up on a soapbox to chastise and/or BASH themselves (if they happen to really be straight).

The HYPOCRISY surrounding the issue of human sexuality should cause people to take notice, especially when they deem it necessary to speak about homosexuality as IF it is THE only sexual sin which needs to be addressed harshly, sternly or resolutely...in BOTH the social and biblical senses.

Do you think that people have generally gone overboard (in comparison to most things) when it comes to this single/particualr sin? You see, I haven't just started watching this issue yesterday, or merely during the last election; I've been regarding the social and religious dynamics related to this for decades. I don't consider myself a scholar (as Dr. Tony Campolo clearly is), but I have learned to recognize and face the truth of homosexuality.

I have learned the following things over time:

Many gays did not choose homosexuality over heterosexuality

Many homosexuals cannot simply turn it OFF (or alter their orientation)

Most homosexuals aren't necessarily associated with some sinister "gay-agenda", to turn others and their children gay.

The Bible instructs on courses of action on the part of individual non-gays toward homosexuals (and other sinners), that are certainly not ADHERED TO by and large. "Christians" are doing so much damage by not using or promoting LOVE and COMPASSION as their primary (main) methods of reaching (affecting) people; it's so very obvious (to me at least).

So many who want to be recognized as "Christians" are actually BIGOTS, who hand homosexual people CRAP (social, moral and spiritual), and then expect it to DELIVER (change) them; they not only do that, but proliferate and indoctrinate others to do the same things. Jesus DIDN'T treat people (sinners) that way. I did NOT come to this conclusion overnight, and I await the day when God DOES actually deliver people of the homosexual question; the dehuamnization and unnecessary persecution they must endure, especially at the hands of many who claim to be His followers.

If you want to know exactly where I'm coming from, then all you have to do is consider and observe the manner in which YOU are treated, and comapre that to the way others are treated (despite your sins).

To address something you said in a previous post:

It's quite possible that I am NOT a "Christian": If YOUR "Christ" is the one who has reduced faith, hope, love and compassion to some rule printed on a page in a book, then no...I'm not a follower of your God (or religion), nor a member in the family called or labelled "Christian".

I'm tired of people who think they DEFINE the sole set of parameters of a relationship with God (Jesus). I suspect that God has made Himself far more available to lost, lonely and desperate people (as I certainly was), than many who believe they have the "formula" cornered realize. I respect the writings of the Bible, but I surely don't/can't adhere to or match every "dotted-i" or "crossed-t" (not that I haven't tried to, or endured much concerning the same).

Who was there with me, and cried with me for 10 years, 20 years, 40 years...when I could not change this? (Not YOU.)

Who repaired my HEART, every time some straight (or "Christian" person)
thought it was either FUNNY or helpful to dehumanize homosexual PEOPLE? (Not YOU.)

Who accepted me, though I had already accepted that I was basically TRASH, REFUSE, and DETESTABLE (as society and "Christians" defined me). (Not YOU.)

This isn't a personal thing toward YOU jjg, I'm just illustrating SOME of what I had to endure, inside of the only PERSPECTIVE I've been allowed to possess. It is NOT UNCOMMON to reach out to normalcy (as some define it), only have your hand SLAPPED BACK (you faggot, queer, "homosexual").

You see, the ONLY person who ever accepted me WHOLE, was/is Jesus Christ. I didn't come to Him because He was my only way out of HELL, but because He LOVED ME and everyone else...before I was even born, before I knew I had to deal with being a "homosexual" person. In fact, if it was up to many of the "Christians" to help/sustain me...I'd be DEAD in every way already.

If this sounds dramatic, that is part of my intent. So many people talk about "homosexuality" or being "homosexual", and really don't know what they are talking about...and it's NOT the same for every person who faces it (whether they strive to alter it or not). There are "seemingly" simple answers in the Bible, but I'm here to tell you that NOTHING is simple about being what a homosexual is (in this world); especially when you deal with other "Christians".

-Mel-

[Chimp]

Thanks for that post Mel.

[melikio]

Thanks for that post Mel.

Chimp, you are welcome, by God's grace.

I don't have any perfect answers, and haven't had a perfect life. I became a Christian, because I was seeking a "cure" for what I can only view as my "humanity".

I found out over much time, that the exact miracles we seek, don't necessarily take place as WE desire or interpret them. When you are GAY and want that changed as a young man, you are full of hope and try a lot of things to make that change...you believe with a more child-like faith than many adults tends to remember. I still regard faith, hope and especially love; for me, there is no wonder that God put those (3) things out here, to help us all through this life.

I believe that grace is lumped in there with who/what God is; I try not to be arrogant about what I am, but I cannot deny it is an integral part of me. I doubt most have tried (as many homosexual Christians, and even non-Christians have) in multiple instances, to distance/split a part of themselves (human sexuality) from the very person they are. It is (for me) impossible and excruciating to attempt it. Not that I haven't been to altar-calls numerous times and prayed deeply about it; I didn't even have a "boyfriend" or hang out with "gay" people (still don't), in hopes that would help me cure/change this. And I have no aversion to heterosexuality or heterosexuals, but I'm not affected sexually, in the way most heterosexual males typically are; this is something I have known since elementary school (no, I wasn't abused or molested as a child).

I once accepted openly the most common interpretations of Scripture by most straight-believers, and even had the popular (yet erroneous) view that one could beat, punish or pray this out of one's own person. But having to make a lifelong study of homosexuality (not always objectively), reveals certain things that a textbook-only experience does not or cannot.

Celibacy makes sense to one who actually believes homosexuality is wrong, yet even heterosexuals are rarely found extolling the virtues of that particular option (at least not as readily as many can be found putting down homosexuals). Even more conspicuously-absent in our society, are the MULTITUDES of religious moralists, who should be speaking adamantly against DIVORCE and REMARRIAGE (as they often take place). But no, it seems many homosexual people have been scapegoated, and theirs has become the MAIN sexual moral offense. No, I'm not saying that another wrong makes anything "right", but that the hypocrisy out here is inextricably related to the poor treatment (spiritually, mentally and physically) homosexuals are often subjected to. Is there any reason that people would not expect them to fight back, in the most effective ways they know. What many have mistaken as a battle or ploy to promote a "gay" thing, is really a matter of basic acknowledgement of certain HUMAN RIGHTS.

If I could have erradicated the parts of me that were/are homosexual (over the course of my life), I would have. And no, I didn't have the positive support or encouragement of society or even most Christians; in reality, I had to make that part of myself invisible...only God knew or could confirm it was there. I have remained silent about this for many reasons, not the least of which is to protect my physical body itself and my professional career.

Some negative aspects within me range from bitterness to anger. I don't lash out to any great magnitude nor blame others for this, because I actually feel blessed that God has helped me to handle the rejection in normal and mature ways. Somewhere around the 1000th "gay" joke or dehumanizing comment I'd heard, I made some choices about what to do with the feelings that came up to the surface. That led to a tremendous amount of anguish, that few who belive they know what another's feelings/trials are typically acknowledge voluntarily or consider at all. Its worth noting that none of that negative junk people typically throw at homosexuals...forced me to be "less" horny or gay.

The kinds of posts I write here, are a reflection of how I have learned to cope. I'm closeted (for many reasons, to include personal safety and professional interests), and that has allowed me to experience the words and attitudes (what they really felt) of many; those who believed their stark lack of compassion for homosexual people affected no one. I'm sure some were taught something DIFFERENT in their churches, but we know some people leave the best parts of their humanity at the church door.

Even so, I put a lot more emphasis upon not hating people (as a result of what I've personally been through), than not being gay. I lost my faith in "Christianity" as I once knew it; nowadays, I just hold Jesus' hand and go from one day to the next. Yes, I tend to refrain from acting upon every urge, but in no significant way could I consider myself heterosexual (except in outward appearance).

-Mel-