The Ten Commandments

[OnceConvinced]

Have you ever looked at the ten commandments and wonder what the hell was God thinking? Why did he put these ten things above all else? I can understand most of them, but certainly not all.

Just take a look at them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The first three commandments are all about God and if they are that important to him then it shows us what an insecure and jealous God he is (Note that jealousy is a sin). Thats 30% of the commandments! Is Gods ego that delicate that he had to include 3 commandments such as this? Then you have laws like "thou shalt not covet" which seems to be small fry in the sin department next to many other things. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" also seems to be a small fish in a big pond when things like rape and paedophilia seem to be given a very low priority.

So what about some of the other important stuff? Where are all the other commandments that would seem to be so incredibly important? Where is?

Thou shalt not take another human being as a slave (Youd think God would take a harder line on this issue)

Thou shalt not rape (Sexual crimes seem to be unimportant as far as Gods concerned when it comes to the 10 commandments - apart from adultry. In fact the bible says God expects rape victims to marry their abusers)

Thou shalt not take drugs (or something like that. After all, God knows what will happen in the future and must have surely known it would become a major problem further down the line. He is either short sighted or has no knowledge of what will happen in the future.)

I am aware there are a lot of issues dealt with in other parts of the Torah relating to immoralities, however the 10 Commandments seem to stand out as Gods main issues and that is what I am trying to focus on here.

So my questions:
What commandments that haven't been included do you think should have been included and why?
Should any have been omitted? Why?
Should any have been reworded or elaborated more on?.

[cnorman18]

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

G'day Cnorman18.

You make claims of "attempts to falsify the nature and beliefs of Judaism".

Yet the passage that I quoted also appeared on the first link that you gave in your response. Obviously you are confusing "absolute proof to the contrary" with merely stating your own opinions. Your opinion is not absolute proof of anything.

The "words of the prophets" are recorded for everyone to see, as can be seen in the above quote from Deuteronomy.

Making a young woman that has been raped to marry the man that raped her is hardly a shining example and yet it is only one of many such beliefs purported in the "words of the prophets".

Here's some more classic examples of the "words of the prophets" .....

Don't bother.

You must not have read many of my posts. I have stated, over and over, that one may not make judgments about the teachings and beliefs of Judaism by reading the Bible. Sorry.

Those can be learned only by reading the words written about the Bible, in the Talmud, the Mishnah and Gemara, the commentaries of Rashi and Maimonides, the Shulkhan Arukh, and many other books, including the Responsa of many rabbis down to the present day.

What did you think? That Jews read those passages and say, "Yes, that's fine, that's good, that's what we believe"? Those parts of the Bible are just as wrongheaded and problematic for us as they are for you. If you had ever in your life picked up a volume of Jewish commentary on the Bible, you'd know that. We don't teach evil.

The Bible is not the supreme authority for Jews; it is the tradition of teaching, framed by collective human thought and judgment over centuries. The Bible is an important source, but it is one among many.

Do you really think you have the expertise and the right to make pronouncements about the beliefs of my religion? I wouldn't even accept that from my own rabbi. We Jews get to decide most theological questions for ourselves.

What, exactly, are you trying to prove here? That Judaism teaches evil and stupid things?

Good luck with that.

[I AM ALL I AM]

G'day Cnorman18.

I suppose I have to take a minute for this, too.

No. You have free will to make any choice and have chosen to respond.

Main Beliefs of Judaism / Jewish Religion

Judaism beliefs are set forth in the following thirteen articles, first compiled by Maimonides in the eleventh century...

Sorry, that's just wrong.

What Do Jews Believe?

Level: Basic

This is a far more difficult question than you might expect. Judaism has no dogma, no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.

The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. Rambam's thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:

1. G-d exists
2. G-d is one and unique
3. G-d is incorporeal
4. G-d is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8. The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Messiah will come
13. The dead will be resurrected

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

G'day Cnorman18.

Funny that you consider what I posted to be "wrong" when it is also on the first link that you provided at the top of that page. Is that a coincidence ?

Maybe you also consider jewfaq to be "wrong" as well. Which doesn't really matter either way, as the evidence is there and can be seen by all, no matter what it is that you promote.

You forgot to delete the part in red.

You are making ASSumptions as I didn't forget anything.

The claim that Judaism has a Creed or required beliefs is just false, and I have here proved it. Continuing to make your pronouncements about the nature and beliefs of Judaism is now ludicrous as well as erroneous.

Deleting and ignoring the rest of my post won't make it disappear; it speaks for itself, as it still does above.

Quote where I have stated that "Judaism has a Creed".

Clearly you are grasping at straws and making things up to justify your position.

"I'm done here"

So it would appear, especially as you have not been able to back up your statements concerning Judaism....

An obvious falsehood.

Yes, it is an obvious falsehood as here you still are.

]...or been able to provide any quote as to back up your false claim that I have stated that you are proselytising.

If you will look over my post to you (as opposed to quotes from other threads), I used the word "proselytize" exactly once, here:

As anyone can see, every thread you have linked to here shows that I am posting "in the spirit of providing information," and not in an effort to proselytize.

Where does that allege that you used the term? In the rest of my post, I used the same word you did - "promotion."

In any case, if "promotional zeal" doesn't refer to proselytizing, to what does it refer?

Why would you use the word proselytising when I have never claimed that you are ?

You are inferring, by using that term, that I am claiming that is what you are doing. Obviously as you are inferring this, then I have asked you to provide a quote where I have used the term in relationship to you promoting Judaism.

pro-mo-tion n.

1. The act of promoting or the fact of being promoted; advancement.
2. Encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something; furtherance.
3. Advertising; publicity.

pro-motion-al adj.

zeal n.
Enthusiastic devotion to a cause, ideal, or goal and tireless diligence in its furtherance.

Seems like you have made a total misunderstanding of what the words mean as there is obviously no reference to proselytising in either definition.

Considering that you have also made up quotes about others and posted them as if they were actually genuine instead of something that you made up, it truly does appear as though you are "done here" like a dinner.

This is silly. Since my "quotes" were very obviously not direct quotes,

Yes, I agree, it is silly to make up quotes.

If it wasn't to be considered a direct quote, why use quote symbols at all ?

There was very clearly to attempt to deceive,

Is that a Freudian slip ?

... you can't ...

... Stop grasping ...

... Get over it and move on. ...

Why do you insist in trying to tell me what to do ?

[Nilloc James]

Do you really think you have the expertise and the right to make pronouncements about the beliefs of my religion? I wouldn't even accept that from my own rabbi. We Jews get to decide most theological questions for ourselves.

Independent thought, what a unique concept in religion.

[cnorman18]

Brother, I have a Talmud on my computer. They are all true statements.

Are you denying that you copied that entire list of quotations from Sherry Shriner's site, or some equally vicious pile of dung? Are you actually claiming that you found them yourself?

Why are they word-for-word and letter-for-letter identical, down to parenthetical remarks and punctuation, and in precisely the same order, as on Sherry's bigoted nutcase website?

The sources are widely available and have nothing to do with "anti-semetic" web sites.

Prove it.

Give a link to your source. Let us all see it and judge whether you're telling the truth.

It's filled with tons of hatred and error.

Show us some, that I can't Google and prove you got it from a hate site. Go ahead.

Sounds exactly like sex with minors is permitted.

That's unspeakable.

Have you no shame? None at all?

Are you actually claiming that Jews teach that child rape is perfectly moral and acceptable?

How dare you pretend to care a rotten fig about morality, the truth, or God?

Why not just come out and say that?

The actual passage in the Talmud did. It was this lying distortion that didn't, and made it look like something evil - which you have now endorsed and reaffirmed as truth.

If you actually had a Talmud on your computer, and knew how to read it, and did, you would know that.

Actually, if you had bothered to follow the links that I gave, you'd know it then, too.

You prove you are a vicious liar and bigot with every word you type.

The Torah doesn't allow for "finders keepers losers weepers."

Neither does the Talmud.

You didn't even bother to look at the link, did you? If you had, you'd have seen that the Talmud teaches that a lost item must be returned to its owner, whether Jew or Gentile.

Brother, you attempts at trying to convince the crowd that the Talmud doesn't contain any dogma is actually easily refuted by the fact that there is nothing in the Torah or Tanakh that permits man from establishing doctrines contrary to the word of God.

Excuse me? That doesn't even make coherent sense.

The Talmud is tradition and doctrine based on man's words, not God's.

No kidding. You just learned something about Jewish beliefs.

The problem is that your tradition and doctrine are based on man's words, too. And if you're actually saying that the stinking excrement you posted has any validity at all and is not a vicious falsification of the teachings of Judaism, your "man's words" are the rankest kind of evil.

Come on, let's see it. Prove that you're telling the truth.

Post some horrible quotations from the "Talmud on your computer" and let us see the evil and hatred there - and beware of posting anything that I can find somewhere online or in a printed antisemitic book (I have many available).

While you're at it, give us the publisher, the name, the ISBN number, and the memory required for that "Talmud on your computer."

Explain why your post is absolutely identical to, and even titled the same as, a page on a despicable looney-tunes neo-Nazi website.

And best of all, show us a site - any site - where that material can be found, a site that isn't antisemitic.

Good luck with that last one. That material was the absolute essence of antisemitism, and can be found nowhere else - except, of course, on Jewish sites that expose it as a pack of UNGODLY lies.

Go ahead: complain that I'm just squealing "antisemitism!" where there is none - as you claim that Jews gleefully rape their babies and high-five each other.

I don't throw these words around often:

You are a disgusting liar, a vicious bigot, and a fraud, and you have no right to call me "brother."

Don't do it again.

[tlong]

Have you ever looked at the ten commandments and wonder what the hell was God thinking? Why did he put these ten things above all else? I can understand most of them, but certainly not all.

Just take a look at them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The first three commandments are all about God and if they are that important to him then it shows us what an insecure and jealous God he is (Note that jealousy is a sin). That?s 30% of the commandments! Is God?s ego that delicate that he had to include 3 commandments such as this? Then you have laws like ?thou shalt not covet? which seems to be small fry in the sin department next to many other things. ?Thou shalt not commit adultery? also seems to be a small fish in a big pond when things like rape and paedophilia seem to be given a very low priority.

So what about some of the other important stuff? Where are all the other commandments that would seem to be so incredibly important? Where is??

Thou shalt not take another human being as a slave (You?d think God would take a harder line on this issue)

Thou shalt not rape (Sexual crimes seem to be unimportant as far as God?s concerned when it comes to the 10 commandments - apart from adultry. In fact the bible says God expects rape victims to marry their abusers)

Thou shalt not take drugs (or something like that. After all, God knows what will happen in the future and must have surely known it would become a major problem further down the line. He is either short sighted or has no knowledge of what will happen in the future.)

I am aware there are a lot of issues dealt with in other parts of the Torah relating to immoralities, however the 10 Commandments seem to stand out as God?s main issues and that is what I am trying to focus on here.

So my questions:
What commandments that haven't been included do you think should have been included and why?
Should any have been omitted? Why?
Should any have been reworded or elaborated more on?.

Did any one actually try to answer the question asked? I personally wouldn't change or add any since it would be ignorant for man to try and improve on God's plan. I also believe that the Law of Moses is no longer in effect since Jesus came and fulfilled the Law and established a new covenant. Although all of the 10 commandments were restated in the NT except to keep the sabbath holy. Jesus tells us that we should love the Lord with all our soul , mind, and heart. And the second great commandment is to love our neighbor as our self.

[RND]

Are you denying that you copied that entire list of quotations from Sherry Shriner's site, or some equally vicious pile of dung? Are you actually claiming that you found them yourself?

Yes, I'm denying that.

Why are they word-for-word and letter-for-letter identical, down to parenthetical remarks and punctuation, and in precisely the same order, as on Sherry's bigoted nutcase website?

Because Sherry Shriner knows how to cut n paste?

Prove it.

You're not a Semite.

Give a link to your source. Let us all see it and judge whether you're telling the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

Show us some, that I can't Google and prove you got it from a hate site. Go ahead.

Done, did it already.

That's unspeakable.

Have you no shame? None at all?

It's true.

Are you actually claiming that Jews teach that child rape is perfectly moral and acceptable?

How dare you pretend to care a rotten fig about morality, the truth, or God?

Talmud does.

The actual passage in the Talmud did. It was this lying distortion that didn't, and made it look like something evil - which you have now endorsed and reaffirmed as truth.

If you actually had a Talmud on your computer, and knew how to read it, and did, you would know that.

Brother, the fact of the matter is that some knucklehead rabbi opened his big mouth one day and it was written down. Now, I'm at least willing to recognize that it was an opinion but if it was abhorrent as you claim then it should be removed from the Talmud.

Actually, if you had bothered to follow the links that I gave, you'd know it then, too.

How do you know I didn't?

You prove you are a vicious liar and bigot with every word you type.

And you're a childish name caller. Fight the argument not the message.

Neither does the Talmud.

You didn't even bother to look at the link, did you? If you had, you'd have seen that the Talmud teaches that a lost item must be returned to its owner, whether Jew or Gentile.

Not according to the expressed opinions in the Talmud.

Brother, you attempts at trying to convince the crowd that the Talmud doesn't contain any dogma is actually easily refuted by the fact that there is nothing in the Torah or Tanakh that permits man from establishing doctrines contrary to the word of God.

Excuse me? That doesn't even make coherent sense.

It makes perfect sense. Point me to the section of the Torah and Tanakh that permits man from establishing doctrines contrary to the word of God.

No kidding. You just learned something about Jewish beliefs.

AKA not from the Bible. See above.

The problem is that your tradition and doctrine are based on man's words, too. And if you're actually saying that the stinking excrement you posted has any validity at all and is not a vicious falsification of the teachings of Judaism, your "man's words" are the rankest kind of evil.

Come on, let's see it. Prove that you're telling the truth.

See the Torah and Tanakh.

Post some horrible quotations from the "Talmud on your computer" and let us see the evil and hatred there - and beware of posting anything that I can find somewhere online or in a printed antisemitic book (I have many available).

While you're at it, give us the publisher, the name, the ISBN number, and the memory required for that "Talmud on your computer."

www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

Explain why your post is absolutely identical to, and even titled the same as, a page on a despicable looney-tunes neo-Nazi website.

Because the neo-nazi website copied it from another website? Keep in mind the Talmud isn't copyrighted.

And best of all, show us a site - any site - where that material can be found, a site that isn't antisemitic.

That's rather subjective isn't? Isn't true that you'd consider any web site not run by jews to be anti-semtic?

Why constantly play the "race card" when Judaism isn't a race?

Good luck with that last one. That material was the absolute essence of antisemitism, and can be found nowhere else - except, of course, on Jewish sites that expose it as a pack of UNGODLY lies.

Maybe that's where I got it?

Go ahead: complain that I'm just squealing "antisemitism!" where there is none - as you claim that Jews gleefully rape their babies and high-five each other.

I never said that, you just did though!

I don't throw these words around often:

You are a disgusting liar, a vicious bigot, and a fraud, and you have no right to call me "brother."

Brother, you have shown consistently that when cornered you call names and make assumptions. It's par for the course.

Don't do it again.

Why, you gonna come to my house and beat me up?

[Fallibleone]

Moderator intervention: this thread is being locked while the moderators decide what action to take about this exchange.

[otseng]

Thread has been reopend by the moderating team. Please proceed with caution. Roads are very icy.

[cnorman18]

Are you denying that you copied that entire list of quotations from Sherry Shriner's site, or some equally vicious pile of dung? Are you actually claiming that you found them yourself?

Yes, I'm denying that.

Let's be clear; you are denying that you copied those "quotations" from any hate site, and you are claiming, here and below, that you found them yourself.

Why are they word-for-word and letter-for-letter identical, down to parenthetical remarks and punctuation, and in precisely the same order, as on Sherry's bigoted nutcase website?

Because Sherry Shriner knows how to cut n paste?

That is an implicit admission that you know how to cut and paste, too.

Prove it.

You're not a Semite.

That is a non sequitur, of course.

Below, this has been corrected to its original form from a clumsy attempt to dodge the question.

Prove it. Give a link to your source. Let us all see it and judge whether you're telling the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

I was obviously asking for the source of your "Talmud quotes."

Show us some [evil from the Talmud], that I can't Google and prove you got it from a hate site. Go ahead.

Done, did it already.

No. You didn't. And when you finally claim to do so below, you do not give your actual source for those quotes.

And best of all, show us a site - any site - where that material can be found, a site that isn't antisemitic.

That's rather subjective isn't? Isn't true that you'd consider any web site not run by jews to be anti-semtic?

That is both ludicrous and an insult, of course; but that's why I challenged you to give your source for these spurious "quotes." Post it - and let EVERYONE look at it and decide for themselves whether or not it's antisemitic.

I note for the record that you are unwilling to do that. Again: The site you give below was not the source for these quotes.

While you're at it, give us the publisher, the name, the ISBN number, and the memory required for that "Talmud on your computer."

www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

That reference is proof positive that statements you have made here are not true; I will demonstrate that beyond doubt in a moment.

Explain why your post is absolutely identical to, and even titled the same as, a page on a despicable looney-tunes neo-Nazi website.

Because the neo-nazi website copied it from another website?

What other website? The one where you supposedly found this excrement? If that's not a neo-Nazi website, why won't you tell what it is? The site you give is absolutely not your source.

Keep in mind the Talmud isn't copyrighted.

In English translation, it most certainly is. The site you gave is in the public domain, but as will be seen, it is nowhere near complete. The entire Talmud is not, to my knowledge, available on the Internet anywhere.

That material was the absolute essence of antisemitism, and can be found nowhere else - except, of course, on Jewish sites that expose it as a pack of UNGODLY lies.

Maybe that's where I got it?

You went to a site that exposed these statements as false and proved them false, copied the parts proven to be lies, and pasted them into your post in order to claim that they are all true?

That's ridiculous. Further, if you HAD actually done that, which you didn't, it would be proof positive of dishonesty and deception.

I leave it to our readers to consider those issues in regard to what you have already posted, anyway. Let's get to the proof of what is and is not true in what you have posted here:

The site you gave above, www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm, is an abridgement of about a third of the Talmud. It is not complete, nor does it claim to be.

I invite everyone who reads this to go there and see this for themselves: Not a single one of the "quotations" which you claim to have found on this site can actually be found there. Not one.

Further proof? Okay: in your post, you "quote" from tractates Kerithoth, Berakoth, Yebamuth, Kethuboth, and Gittin.

Those tractates are not even among those translated on this site, and nothing from them can be found there.

Want more? Something really, totally conclusive and unanswerable? No problem.

Of particular interest in that regard is this "quotation":

Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything with a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly. "

This is, as it happens, a complete fabrication. There is no such tractate in the Talmud, and in fact, there is no such book and no such quotation in all the vast corpus of Jewish literature.

This quote exists nowhere but in antisemitic books and on antisemitic websites.

Ergo, there is nowhere else that you could have gotten it.

I have now proven, beyond doubt, the following FACTS:

(1) You absolutely did get this material from an antisemitic hate site. You could have not have found it anywhere else.

(2) You absolutely did NOT find this material in the Talmud yourself.

(3) You absolutely could NOT have gotten this material from the Talmud site to which you gave a link. That site does not contain a word of it.

I leave it to our readers to draw their own conclusions about your truthfulness, your motivations, the depth of your commitment to the principles of your religion, and your character.

[Cathar1950]

Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything with a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly. "

This is, as it happens, a complete fabrication. There is no such tractate in the Talmud, and in fact, there is no such book and no such quotation in all the vast corpus of Jewish literature.

This quote exists nowhere but in antisemitic books and on antisemitic websites.

Ergo, there is nowhere else that you could have gotten it.

I have now proven, beyond doubt, the following FACTS:

(1) You absolutely did get this material from an antisemitic hate site. You could have not have found it anywhere else.

(2) You absolutely did NOT find this material in the Talmud yourself.

(3) You absolutely could NOT have gotten this material from the Talmud site to which you gave a link. That site does not contain a word of it.

I leave it to our readers to draw their own conclusions about your truthfulness, your motivations, the depth of your commitment to the principles of your religion, and your character.

The true believer might see no problem with deceit in order to win a convert or convince themselves just like torturing and death were acceptable methods of saving the soul. If you can find some passage to back you up all the better even if it is void of content or context.
I think he should be ashamed to tell us where he got the passage.
I don't think there is anything wrong with crazy sites and I enjoy reading them, sometimes they do have something interesting to say. But even when they quote someone or a passage it is best to check them out.
When doubt is a sin or weakness in your religion the questioning your sources especially when they agree wit you is just another step towards sin for them.
Their beliefs suggest they can't be wrong and it seems for some there is never any debate as the unbeliever is always wrong.
I guess when you take the stories literally and factual right down to the smallest details it make God look like an unimaginative magic show and humans look incapable of doing anything, including creating stories, writing laws or having imaginations.
I can't help but think they are missing something by taking some things literally.