The Ten Commandments

[OnceConvinced]

Have you ever looked at the ten commandments and wonder what the hell was God thinking? Why did he put these ten things above all else? I can understand most of them, but certainly not all.

Just take a look at them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: (for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;)
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates
5. Honour thy father and thy mother
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

The first three commandments are all about God and if they are that important to him then it shows us what an insecure and jealous God he is (Note that jealousy is a sin). Thats 30% of the commandments! Is Gods ego that delicate that he had to include 3 commandments such as this? Then you have laws like "thou shalt not covet" which seems to be small fry in the sin department next to many other things. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" also seems to be a small fish in a big pond when things like rape and paedophilia seem to be given a very low priority.

So what about some of the other important stuff? Where are all the other commandments that would seem to be so incredibly important? Where is?

Thou shalt not take another human being as a slave (Youd think God would take a harder line on this issue)

Thou shalt not rape (Sexual crimes seem to be unimportant as far as Gods concerned when it comes to the 10 commandments - apart from adultry. In fact the bible says God expects rape victims to marry their abusers)

Thou shalt not take drugs (or something like that. After all, God knows what will happen in the future and must have surely known it would become a major problem further down the line. He is either short sighted or has no knowledge of what will happen in the future.)

I am aware there are a lot of issues dealt with in other parts of the Torah relating to immoralities, however the 10 Commandments seem to stand out as Gods main issues and that is what I am trying to focus on here.

So my questions:
What commandments that haven't been included do you think should have been included and why?
Should any have been omitted? Why?
Should any have been reworded or elaborated more on?.

[JoeyKnothead]

>some personal observations to help the observer better understand and consider the issues<

From Page 14 Post 138:

You alleged that I spoke of Judaism as the "ONE true religion," implying that only Judaism is true while all other religions are false.

I personally have never seen a post that cnorman18 indicates a belief that Judaism is "the one true religion". I've personally seen many that deny this line of thought.

Please prove your "as if." I express my opinion, and no more than that.

Problem is, his opinion is so often correct

Want proof? Okay; circumcision is routinely performed on newborns in hospitals all over the US and much of the Western world every single day. In many, if not most, of those hospitals, parental permission is not even asked; it is assumed. If you have evidence that circumcision is medically harmful, you'd better rush it to the AMA First, "support" does not necessarily mean "prove" any more than "evidence" is necessarily "proof"by overnight mail. It'll be big news.

LOL. How many Jewish males are there? How many of these Jewish males have gone to the hospital over a "botched" circumcision?

There's risk in pretty much anything, then there's inflating those risks to try to prove a point.

No matter how many times you post, "I explain, I do not promote", as some sort of mantra to hypnotise others (or possible convince yourself of your own lie), it is obviously not true.

I think it fair to consider that all herein are promoting their ideas. I would caution against considering such promotion as somehow nefarious, or otherwise illegit.

If anyone has had much dealings with cnorman18, they will find he does not overtly condemn other's opinions or beliefs. He states his position honestly, supports or retracts any claims, and is an otherwise well respected member of these forums.

As a 'promoter' of the Jewish faith I would say he does quite well.

As anyone can see, every thread you have linked to here shows that I am posting "in the spirit of providing information," and not in an effort to proselytize.

If I define proselytize to mean "explaining the faith, setting an example, and letting folks draw their own conclusions, without condemnation," then cnorman18 does a fine job of such. If I define proselytize to mean "going around acting like everyone who disagrees is an idiot or some such, and dishonestly representing himself and his faith, or misrepresenting others'", then no, no proselytizing.

I would caution the observer to beware how some otherwise harmless words and terms can be misrepresented or used as a debate tactic designed to impune the integrity of others.

I think paraphrases are permissible.
...
I think my paraphrases are on point and accurate enough.
...

It can be convenient to paraphrase, especially to do so with long sentences or paragraphs. I personally don't like to do so because of possible charges of misuse.

I have never known cnorman18 to use paraphrasing as a way to distort another's words or position.

First, "support" does not necessarily mean "prove" any more than "evidence" is necessarily "proof"

Agreed. Just because someone doesn't accept a piece of evidence is no reason to consider what is offered as anything other than an attempt to support a claim or position.

Of course some folks will offer some really weak support, or weak evidence. I would contend an otherwise honest attempt at supporting a claim should be considered as honorable and ethical, even if the evidence is wrong.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Main Beliefs of Judaism / Jewish Religion

Judaism beliefs are set forth in the following thirteen articles, first compiled by Maimonides in the eleventh century:

I believe with a true and perfect faith that God is the creator (whose name be blessed), governor, and maker of all creatures; and that he has wrought all things, worketh, and shall work forever.
I believe with perfect faith that the creator (whose name be blessed) is one; that there is no unity like unto his in any way; and that he alone was, is, and will be our God.
I believe with a perfect faith that the creator (whose name be blessed) is incorporeal, that he has not any corporeal qualities, and that nothing can be compared unto him.
I believe with a perfect faith that the creator (whose name be blessed) was the first, and will be the last.
I believe with a perfect faith that the creator (whose name be blessed) is to be worshipped and none else.
I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.
I believe with perfect faith that the prophecies of Moses our master (may he rest in peace) were true; that he was the father and chief of all prophets, both of those before him and those after him.
I believe with perfect faith that the Law, at present in our hands, is the same that was given to our master Moses (peace be with him).
I believe with perfect faith that this Law will not be changed, and that no other Law will be revealed by the creator (blessed be his name).
I believe with a perfect faith that God (whose name be blessed) knows all the deeds of the sons of men and all their thoughts; as it is said: "He who hath formed their hearts altogether, he knoweth all their deeds".
I believe with a perfect faith that God (whose name be blessed) rewards those who keep his commandments, and punishes those who transgress them.
I believe with a perfect faith that the Messias will come; and although he tarries I wait nevertheless every fay for his coming.
I believe with a perfect faith that there will be a resurrection of the dead, at the time when it shall please the creator (blessed be his name).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08399a.htm

http://www.spaceandmotion.com/religion- ... h-jews.htm

You must kill those who worship another god.
Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own.
Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you.
Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own.
Deuteronomy 17:2-7

G'day Cnorman18.

Perhaps you could explain how the "words of the prophets" in the Tanakh appear to be different than your view of Judaic beliefs.

It appears that the followers of the Judaic religion believe that they worship THE TRUE 'God' (the first and the last) and that no other 'God' should be worshipped. This is no different than other religions that believe their 'God' to be the one and only TRUE 'God'.

By believing "that all the words of the prophets are true", then the quotes that I have supplied from the OT would also 'shine a light' upon how followers of Judaism believe that their form of religion is superior to any other (and are willing to kill others that worship a different 'God' than they do). In other words, they believe that it is the ONE TRUE RELIGION.

Do you deny "that all the words of the prophets are true" ?


"This is a debate and discussion forum."

Yes and you are in the debating section of it.

"If you don't think my posts are appropriate, report them"

No thanks. I don't play the 'blame game'.

I AM ALL I AM wrote:

You just promoted circumcision as "medically harmless at worst and perhaps even beneficial" for a start.

"That was not "promotion"; that was a statement of fact."

You didn't offer any proof. All you did was declare that the practise is wide spread. That doesn't make your statement a "fact". You offer nothing to validate your statement except opinion.

Once again, please show where I have stated that you are proselytising.

"See if you can show where my paraphrases are not essentially correct and accurate."

Paraphrases are not quotes. You used quotations, which implies that you quoted those remarks from a source, instead of stating that you made them up (or that they are paraphrased). Obviously a quote from an imaginary source is neither correct nor accurate. On the contrary, it is false and misleading.

"As a final bit of unsolicited advice ..."

No thanks.

[RND]

I think we're getting a bit off track regarding the OP.

[cnorman18]

Main Beliefs of Judaism / Jewish Religion

Judaism beliefs are set forth in the following thirteen articles, first compiled by Maimonides in the eleventh century...

Sorry, that's just wrong.

Next time, try to get your information from a Jewish site. Here are two of the best (underlining added):

From Judaism 101:

What Do Jews Believe?

(Level: Basic)

This is a far more difficult question than you might expect. Judaism has no dogma, no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.

The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith....

....As you can see, these are very basic and general principles. Yet as basic as these principles are, the necessity of believing each one of these has been disputed at one time or another, and the liberal movements of Judaism dispute many of these principles.

Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts.... There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.....

From The Jewish Virtual Library:

No Fixed Dogmas

In the same sense as Christianity or Islam, Judaism cannot be credited with the possession of Articles of Faith. Many attempts have indeed been made at systematizing and reducing to a fixed phraseology and sequence the contents of the Jewish religion. But these have always lacked the one essential element: authoritative sanction on the part of a supreme ecclesiastical body. And for this reason they have not been recognized as final or regarded as of universally binding force. Though to a certain extent incorporated in the liturgy and utilized for purposes of instruction, these formulations of the cardinal tenets of Judaism carried no greater weight than that imparted to them by the fame and scholarship of their respective authors. None of them had a character analogous to that given in the Church to its three great formulas (the socalled Apostles' Creed, the Nicene or Constantopolitan, and the Athanasian), or even to the Kalimat AsShahadat of the Mohammedans.... None of the many summaries from the pens of Jewish philosophers and rabbis has been invested with similar importance and prominence.

From the same source:

The Thirteen Articles of Maimonides

The most widely spread and popular of all creeds is that of Maimonides, embracing the thirteen articles..... This creed Maimonides wrote while still a very young man; it forms a part of his Mishnah Commentary, but he never referred to it in his later works (See S/ Adler, "Tenets of Faith and Their Authority in the Talmud," in his "Kobez 'al Yad," p. 92, where Yad haHazakah, Issure Biah, xiv, 2, is referred to as proof that Maimonides in his advanced age regarded as fundamental of the faith only the unity of God and the prohibition of idolatry). It did not meet universal acceptance; but, as its phraseology is succinct, it has passed into the prayerbook, and is therefore familiar to almost all Jews of the Orthodox school. The successors of Maimonides, from the thirteenth to the fifteenth century-Nahmanides , Abba Mari ben Moses, Simon ben Zemah, Duran, Albo, Isaac Arama, and Joseph Jaabez-reduced his thirteen articles to three: Belief in
God;
in Creation (or revelation); and in
providence (or retribution).
Others, like Crescas and David ben Samuel Estella, spoke of seven fundamental articles, laying stress on freewill. On the other hand, David ben YomTob ibn Bilia, in his "Yesodot ha Maskil" (Fundamentals of the Thinking Man), adds to the thirteen of Maimonides thirteen of his own-a number which a contemporary of Albo (see "'Ikkarim," iii.) also chose for his fundamentals; while Jedaiah Penini, in the last chapter of his "Behinat haDat," enumerated no less than thirty-five cardinal principles....

Your non-Jewish sources (one of them Catholic) regard the matter as settled. It isn't.

There is no binding or universally accepted Jewish Creed. Period.

The only dogma of Judaism is that there is no dogma. That's from my rabbi. If you don't believe it, that's not my problem. It's too easy to learn about Judaism for there to be any excuse for this kind of falsehood and misrepresentation.

The rest of your post is pointless and trivial quibbling. I'm done here.

Have a nice day.

[RND]

The only dogma of Judaism is that there is no dogma. That's from my rabbi.

Are these not considered "dogmas?" "A system of principles or tenets."

Tidbits From The Talmud

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

Also see Kerithoth 6b under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a in which Gentile women are designated animals ("she-asses").

Jews are Divine, Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

Jews Have Superior Legal Status, Baba Kamma 37b. "If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full."

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews, Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

Sanhedrin 76a . God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

Baba Kamma 37b. Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

Jews May Lie to Non-Jews, Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

Non-Jewish Children Sub-Human, Yebamoth 98a. All Gentile children are animals.

Abodah Zarah 36b . Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

Abodah Zarah 22a-22b . Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

Abodah Zarah 67b . "The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them?"

Yebamoth 63a. States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

Yebamoth 63a. Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

Sanhedrin 55b . A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b . A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b . "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

Yebamoth 59b . A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

Abodah Zarah 17a. States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

Hagigah 27a . States that no rabbi can ever go to hell.

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

Gittin 70a . The Rabbis taught: "On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."

Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Sanhedrin 59a: "A Goy (Gentile) who pries into the law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

Libbre David 37: "To communicate anything with a Goy about our religious relations would be equal to the killing of all Jews, for if the Goyim knew what we teach about them, they would kill us openly.

" Yebhamoth 11b: "Sexual intercourse with a little girl is permitted if she is of three years of age.

" Sanhedrin 105ab: "Jesus fornicated with his jackass.

[I AM ALL I AM]

Main Beliefs of Judaism / Jewish Religion

Judaism beliefs are set forth in the following thirteen articles, first compiled by Maimonides in the eleventh century...

Sorry, that's just wrong.

What Do Jews Believe?

Level: Basic

This is a far more difficult question than you might expect. Judaism has no dogma, no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.

The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. Rambam's thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:

1. G-d exists
2. G-d is one and unique
3. G-d is incorporeal
4. G-d is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8. The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Messiah will come
13. The dead will be resurrected

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

G'day Cnorman18.

Funny that you consider what I posted to be "wrong" when it is also on the first link that you provided at the top of that page. Is that a coincidence ?

Maybe you also consider jewfaq to be "wrong" as well. Which doesn't really matter either way, as the evidence is there and can be seen by all, no matter what it is that you promote.

"I'm done here"

So it would appear, especially as you have not been able to back up your statements concerning Judaism, or been able to provide any quote as to back up your false claim that I have stated that you are proselytising. Considering that you have also made up quotes about others and posted them as if they were actually genuine instead of something that you made up, it truly does appear as though you are "done here" like a dinner.

[cnorman18]

The only dogma of Judaism is that there is no dogma. That's from my rabbi.

Are these not considered "dogmas?" "A system of principles or tenets."

Tidbits From The Talmud

First, let me thank you. I'm going to enjoy this like a good steak. I have dealt with this "information" before, and many times. It's a pleasure do do so again.

No, these are not Jewish "dogmas." They are, one and all, despicable and contemptible lies, deliberate distortions and mistranslations, and occasionally outright fabrications.

They are only found on blatantly antisemitic websites; Stormfront (a neo-Nazi site), radioislam, JewWatch, and the like. You don't have to take my word for it; pick any of these "quotations" at random, Google it, and take a look at the sites you find.

This particular collection most probably comes from Sherry Shriner's site, where it appears word-for-word. I invite everyone to take a look; you will find much more there, including The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - the notorious and vicious Czarist forgery - presented as factual material; much hysterical ranting about the Illuminati, the New World Order, and hostile aliens - the usual far-right and neo-Nazi smorgasbord of bigotry, paranoia and flat-out insanity. Take a look.

Whatever its source - and I would invite RND to post a link revealing it, which those who are paying attention have already noted he did not do - this excrement always traces back to the same ultimate source: the work of one I. B. Praniatis, a Russian Orthodox priest and vicious antisemite who published a book entitled The Talmud Unmasked in 1892. It was translated into English in 1939.

Praniatis was exposed as a liar and a fraud, in an antisemitic Czarist court, in the famous 1912 Mendel Beilis trial (upon which Bernard Malamud based his book, later made into a movie, The Fixer). Beilis was charged with the ritual murder of a young boy, and Praniatis was called as a witness for the prosecution. He revealed himself to be utterly ignorant of Hebrew, of which he claimed to be a "professor," and did not, apparently, even know that the bulk of the Talmud is not even written in Hebrew, but in Aramaic.

The Talmud is an enormous work, running to more than fifty folio-sized volumes in English. It is primarily the record of debates among the sages and rabbis of the Exile period and before, and as such includes all kinds of remarks; some are included only to be refuted, and some are given as examples of false teachings and errors. In a work of that size and scope, it isn't hard to find isolated passages that can be held up as horrors. Anyone who is even marginally familiar
With the most basic teachings of Judaism - take note, RND - would never take any of these lies seriously for a single second. Indeed, taking them seriously at all is prima facie evidence of having a serious problem with an irrational and visceral hatred of Jews as Jews.

There are several sites which debunk this execrable collection of lies; this is one of the best.

Just for fun, let's take a look at a few of these and see how this stuff works. We begin with these, favorites of Jew-haters and among the most shocking:

Sanhedrin 55b . A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b . A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b . "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

From a page on the site linked above, here (reading the entire entry is advised):

Talmud Ketuvot 11b (The citation mentioned is evidently in error. Talmud Yevamot 11b has no relevant passage)

....This is what was meant - an adult male who has relations with a female child has not done anything because less than this [three years old] is like sticking a.finger into an eyeball.

While those unused to these Talmudic discussions might be taken aback by the use of euphemisms, the discussion here relates to the dowry for virgins and non-virgins. It has nothing to do with what acts are allowed, encouraged, forbidden, or discouraged....

The Talmud relates that a virgin is entitled a higher dowry. While the tell-tale sign of virginity is the release of blood due to the breaking of the hymen on the wedding night, there are occasions when the hymen has already been broken such as when the woman suffered an injury.... The Talmud continues and quotes Rava as saying that a sexual act between a male adult and a female under the age of three is also not considered a loss of virginity (although it is child abuse). Since the girl is too young for her hymen to be broken, she is still considered a virgin.

Nowhere is the Talmud permitting such behavior. Sex outside of a marriage is strictly forbidden (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut 1:4, Hilchot Na'arah Betulah 2:17; Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 26:1, 177:5) as is this obvious case of child abuse. The Talmud is only discussing ex post facto what would happen if such a case arose.

In other words: a sexually abused child is not required to suffer a penalty for being abused. How horrible. How inhuman.

Does anyone here think that this "quotation," as presented here, is an innocent error or a misunderstanding?

Let's look at another:

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews, Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

From the site, here (again, I recommend reading the whole discussion):

The passage in Bava Metzia 24a does not deal with theft but with returning lost objects with which we will deal in a separate section. However, before we deal with Talmudic texts let us look at the conclusions drawn in post-Talmudic legal works.

Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) Choshen Mishpat 348:2 Anyone who steals even a minor amount violates the prohibition of [Leviticus 19:11] "You shall not steal" and is required to repay [the amount stolen] whether one steals from a Jew or a gentile.
Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 359:1 It is forbidden to rob or to cheat even a minor amount from either a Jew or a gentile.... [there are several more such references]

....Now that we have seen that it is unequivocably forbidden by Jewish law to steal from a gentile, let us visit the relevant Talmudic texts.

Talmud Bava Kamma 113a-b: "And who permits stealing from a gentile [which is implied in an earlier case]? Doesn't it say [in a baraita]: R. Shimon said that R. Akiva taught this when he came from Zephirin: From where do we know that theft from a gentile is forbidden [Leviticus 25:48] "After he [a Jew] has been sold [as a slave to a gentile] he shall have a redemption."....

....There are a number of important points in this passage. First, we see that stealing from a gentile is undeniably forbidden. The Talmud emphasizes this by explaining a difficult verse in Leviticus. As we have seen, this passage has been accepted throughout the post-Talmudic literature.

Again: innocent misunderstanding, or a deliberate and vicious lie?

How about another?

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

From the site, here (again, read the entire entry):

Before discussing this particular passage from the Talmud it is important to note that the commandments regarding not withholding a worker's wages [see below] DO NOT touch upon the issue of whether a worker is paid; they deal solely with WHEN a worker is paid. The commandments specify that a worker must be paid within that day/night period and that the employer is prohibited from delaying payment....

....We therefore see that the Talmud states that the commandments prohibiting holding back a worker's wages do not apply to idolaters, Jewish or gentile. What remains unstated in this passage but is implicit in other passages is that an employer must still pay an idolater his fair wages. He only need not go the extra mile and pay him immediately if there was no pre-arranged payment schedule.

I trust the pattern is becoming clear.

More? Okay.

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

This post as already very long. I shall eschew further detailed refutations; look here:

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

Look here.

Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Sanhedrin 59a: "A Goy (Gentile) who pries into the law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

Here.

The rest are much the same.

Personally, I found this one most interesting:

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

This refers to a passage I have cited many times, the one about "The Torah is not in Heaven." Those who have read my posts will recognize that reference instantly.

Suffice it to say here that this is a gross misrepresentation of that text. No rabbi "debated" God, and there was no "defeat." The point of the story is that interpretation of the Torah and the determination of Jewish law is up to humans, and is no longer subject to proof by miracle or supernatural intervention.

To conclude: this entire post is based on a century-old work of antisemitic propaganda, and this material has long been acknowledged by religious authorities, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, as vicious hatemongering and lies.

Thanks again, RND - for revealing the quality of your sources about Judaism and the kind of sites you consider trustworthy.

I could say more, but this forum forbids foul language, even when it is richly deserved. It will have to be enough to say that this kind of thing is the worst of the worst, the direct cause of the murder and persecution of hundreds of thousands of my people, and fuel for the most horrific kind of bigotry and hatred.

It is unrelievedly and unredeemably evil, has no place in ethical and civil discourse among ANY people, and is truly an abomination in the mouth of anyone who professes to be religious.

A bit of prevention here; the usual answer to this kind of debunking and exposure is something along the lines of, "All these so-called refutations come from books and websites written by Jews."

Well, that is true; and notice the hidden assumption in that objection - "Jews routinely lie to Gentiles about the teachings of their religion."

If that sort of response appears here, we no longer have to wonder if we are dealing with antisemitism. That assumption definitively and inarguably proves it all by itself.

I AM's clumsy attempts to falsify the nature and beliefs of Judaism, in the face of absolute proof to the contrary, are bad enough. These monstrous lies and libels are orders of magnitude worse, and ought to be abhorred by anyone with a grain of moral consciousness.

[cnorman18]

I suppose I have to take a minute for this, too.

Main Beliefs of Judaism / Jewish Religion

Judaism beliefs are set forth in the following thirteen articles, first compiled by Maimonides in the eleventh century...

Sorry, that's just wrong.

What Do Jews Believe?

Level: Basic

This is a far more difficult question than you might expect. Judaism has no dogma, no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.

The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. Rambam's thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:

1. G-d exists
2. G-d is one and unique
3. G-d is incorporeal
4. G-d is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
8. The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Messiah will come
13. The dead will be resurrected

http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

G'day Cnorman18.

Funny that you consider what I posted to be "wrong" when it is also on the first link that you provided at the top of that page. Is that a coincidence ?

Maybe you also consider jewfaq to be "wrong" as well. Which doesn't really matter either way, as the evidence is there and can be seen by all, no matter what it is that you promote.

You forgot to delete the part in red.

The claim that Judaism has a Creed or required beliefs is just false, and I have here proved it. Continuing to make your pronouncements about the nature and beliefs of Judaism is now ludicrous as well as erroneous.

Deleting and ignoring the rest of my post won't make it disappear; it speaks for itself, as it still does above.

"I'm done here"

So it would appear, especially as you have not been able to back up your statements concerning Judaism....

An obvious falsehood.

...or been able to provide any quote as to back up your false claim that I have stated that you are proselytising.

If you will look over my post to you (as opposed to quotes from other threads), I used the word "proselytize" exactly once, here:

As anyone can see, every thread you have linked to here shows that I am posting "in the spirit of providing information," and not in an effort to proselytize.

Where does that allege that you used the term? In the rest of my post, I used the same word you did - "promotion."

In any case, if "promotional zeal" doesn't refer to proselytizing, to what does it refer?

Considering that you have also made up quotes about others and posted them as if they were actually genuine instead of something that you made up, it truly does appear as though you are "done here" like a dinner.

This is silly. Since my "quotes" were very obviously not direct quotes, they were clearly intended to be read as paraphrases summarizing statements that were indeed made, and any reasonable reader would have understood that. There was very clearly to attempt to deceive, and it's a bit fatuous to pretend that there was.

Sorry, but you can't make that accusation of lying stick. It won't, and everyone here knows that.

I note that you make not the least effort to show that those paraphrases were not essentially accurate when taken in that sense, as you were challenged to do. Proves my point; they were paraphrases, and fair ones.

Stop grasping at straws and pretending you've scored points. You've already been told that your earlier post was uncivil and way over the top. I have now addressed your charges as you made them and proved my points, and if you continue in this vein, you're going to do it again. Get over it and move on.

If you MUST comment further, perhaps you could tell us what you think of RND's little fit of vicious, blatant smear, dissected above.

[I AM ALL I AM]

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

G'day Cnorman18.

You make claims of "attempts to falsify the nature and beliefs of Judaism".

Yet the passage that I quoted also appeared on the first link that you gave in your response. Obviously you are confusing "absolute proof to the contrary" with merely stating your own opinions. Your opinion is not absolute proof of anything.

The "words of the prophets" are recorded for everyone to see, as can be seen in the above quote from Deuteronomy.

Making a young woman that has been raped to marry the man that raped her is hardly a shining example and yet it is only one of many such beliefs purported in the "words of the prophets".

Here's some more classic examples of the "words of the prophets" .....

When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.
Exodus 21:7-11


As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14


They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings " Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba " died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
Numbers 31:7-18

[RND]

First, let me thank you. I'm going to enjoy this like a good steak. I have dealt with this "information" before, and many times. It's a pleasure do do so again.

No, these are not Jewish "dogmas." They are, one and all, despicable and contemptible lies, deliberate distortions and mistranslations, and occasionally outright fabrications.

They are only found on blatantly antisemitic websites; Stormfront (a neo-Nazi site), radioislam, JewWatch, and the like. You don't have to take my word for it; pick any of these "quotations" at random, Google it, and take a look at the sites you find.

This particular collection most probably comes from Sherry Shriner's site, where it appears word-for-word. I invite everyone to take a look; you will find much more there, including The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - the notorious and vicious Czarist forgery - presented as factual material; much hysterical ranting about the Illuminati, the New World Order, and hostile aliens - the usual far-right and neo-Nazi smorgasbord of bigotry, paranoia and flat-out insanity. Take a look.

Brother, I have a Talmud on my computer. They are all true statements.

Whatever its source - and I would invite RND to post a link revealing it, which those who are paying attention have already noted he did not do - this excrement always traces back to the same ultimate source: the work of one I. B. Praniatis, a Russian Orthodox priest and vicious antisemite who published a book entitled The Talmud Unmasked in 1892. It was translated into English in 1939.

The sources are widely available and have nothing to do with "anti-semetic" web sites. Stop trying to play up the "race" card. Besides, Judaism has nothing to do with race.

The Talmud is an enormous work, running to more than fifty folio-sized volumes in English. It is primarily the record of debates among the sages and rabbis of the Exile period and before, and as such includes all kinds of remarks; some are included only to be refuted, and some are given as examples of false teachings and errors. In a work of that size and scope, it isn't hard to find isolated passages that can be held up as horrors. Anyone who is even marginally familiar
With the most basic teachings of Judaism - take note, RND - would never take any of these lies seriously for a single second. Indeed, taking them seriously at all is prima facie evidence of having a serious problem with an irrational and visceral hatred of Jews as Jews.

It's filled with tons of hatred and error.

Sanhedrin 55b . A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b . A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b . "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

From a page on the site linked above, here (reading the entire entry is advised):

Talmud Ketuvot 11b (The citation mentioned is evidently in error. Talmud Yevamot 11b has no relevant passage)

....This is what was meant - an adult male who has relations with a female child has not done anything because less than this [three years old] is like sticking a.finger into an eyeball.

While those unused to these Talmudic discussions might be taken aback by the use of euphemisms, the discussion here relates to the dowry for virgins and non-virgins. It has nothing to do with what acts are allowed, encouraged, forbidden, or discouraged....

The Talmud relates that a virgin is entitled a higher dowry. While the tell-tale sign of virginity is the release of blood due to the breaking of the hymen on the wedding night, there are occasions when the hymen has already been broken such as when the woman suffered an injury.... The Talmud continues and quotes Rava as saying that a sexual act between a male adult and a female under the age of three is also not considered a loss of virginity (although it is child abuse). Since the girl is too young for her hymen to be broken, she is still considered a virgin.

Nowhere is the Talmud permitting such behavior. Sex outside of a marriage is strictly forbidden (Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Ishut 1:4, Hilchot Na'arah Betulah 2:17; Shulchan Aruch, Even HaEzer 26:1, 177:5) as is this obvious case of child abuse. The Talmud is only discussing ex post facto what would happen if such a case arose.

Sounds exactly like sex with minors is permitted.

In other words: a sexually abused child is not required to suffer a penalty for being abused. How horrible. How inhuman.

Does anyone here think that this "quotation," as presented here, is an innocent error or a misunderstanding?

Why not just come out and say that?

Let's look at another:

Jews May Steal from Non-Jews, Baba Mezia 24a . If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile ("heathen") it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b).

From the site, here (again, I recommend reading the whole discussion):

The passage in Bava Metzia 24a does not deal with theft but with returning lost objects with which we will deal in a separate section. However, before we deal with Talmudic texts let us look at the conclusions drawn in post-Talmudic legal works.

Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) Choshen Mishpat 348:2 Anyone who steals even a minor amount violates the prohibition of [Leviticus 19:11] "You shall not steal" and is required to repay [the amount stolen] whether one steals from a Jew or a gentile.
Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat 359:1 It is forbidden to rob or to cheat even a minor amount from either a Jew or a gentile.... [there are several more such references]

....Now that we have seen that it is unequivocably forbidden by Jewish law to steal from a gentile, let us visit the relevant Talmudic texts.

Talmud Bava Kamma 113a-b: "And who permits stealing from a gentile [which is implied in an earlier case]? Doesn't it say [in a baraita]: R. Shimon said that R. Akiva taught this when he came from Zephirin: From where do we know that theft from a gentile is forbidden [Leviticus 25:48] "After he [a Jew] has been sold [as a slave to a gentile] he shall have a redemption."....

....There are a number of important points in this passage. First, we see that stealing from a gentile is undeniably forbidden. The Talmud emphasizes this by explaining a difficult verse in Leviticus. As we have seen, this passage has been accepted throughout the post-Talmudic literature.

Again: innocent misunderstanding, or a deliberate and vicious lie?

The Torah doesn't allow for "finders keepers losers weepers."

Lev 6:3 Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein: 4 Then it shall be, because he hath sinned, and is guilty, that he shall restore that which he took violently away, or the thing which he hath deceitfully gotten, or that which was delivered him to keep, or the lost thing which he found,

Deu 22:3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

How about another?

O.K. to Cheat Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a Gentile ("Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

From the site, here (again, read the entire entry):

Before discussing this particular passage from the Talmud it is important to note that the commandments regarding not withholding a worker's wages [see below] DO NOT touch upon the issue of whether a worker is paid; they deal solely with WHEN a worker is paid. The commandments specify that a worker must be paid within that day/night period and that the employer is prohibited from delaying payment....

....We therefore see that the Talmud states that the commandments prohibiting holding back a worker's wages do not apply to idolaters, Jewish or gentile. What remains unstated in this passage but is implicit in other passages is that an employer must still pay an idolater his fair wages. He only need not go the extra mile and pay him immediately if there was no pre-arranged payment schedule.

I trust the pattern is becoming clear.

More? Okay.

Non-Jews are Not Human Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men").

This post as already very long. I shall eschew further detailed refutations; look here:

Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

Abodah Zara 26b: "Even the best of the Gentiles should be killed."

Sanhedrin 59a: "Murdering Goyim is like killing a wild animal."

Look here.

Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Erubin 21b. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot excrement in hell.

Sanhedrin 59a: "A Goy (Gentile) who pries into the law (Talmud) is guilty of death."

Here.

The rest are much the same.

Personally, I found this one most interesting:

Baba Mezia 59b. A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

This refers to a passage I have cited many times, the one about "The Torah is not in Heaven." Those who have read my posts will recognize that reference instantly.

Suffice it to say here that this is a gross misrepresentation of that text. No rabbi "debated" God, and there was no "defeat." The point of the story is that interpretation of the Torah and the determination of Jewish law is up to humans, and is no longer subject to proof by miracle or supernatural intervention.

To conclude: this entire post is based on a century-old work of antisemitic propaganda, and this material has long been acknowledged by religious authorities, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, as vicious hatemongering and lies.

Thanks again, RND - for revealing the quality of your sources about Judaism and the kind of sites you consider trustworthy.

I could say more, but this forum forbids foul language, even when it is richly deserved. It will have to be enough to say that this kind of thing is the worst of the worst, the direct cause of the murder and persecution of hundreds of thousands of my people, and fuel for the most horrific kind of bigotry and hatred.

It is unrelievedly and unredeemably evil, has no place in ethical and civil discourse among ANY people, and is truly an abomination in the mouth of anyone who professes to be religious.

A bit of prevention here; the usual answer to this kind of debunking and exposure is something along the lines of, "All these so-called refutations come from books and websites written by Jews."

Well, that is true; and notice the hidden assumption in that objection - "Jews routinely lie to Gentiles about the teachings of their religion."

If that sort of response appears here, we no longer have to wonder if we are dealing with antisemitism. That assumption definitively and inarguably proves it all by itself.

I AM's clumsy attempts to falsify the nature and beliefs of Judaism, in the face of absolute proof to the contrary, are bad enough. These monstrous lies and libels are orders of magnitude worse, and ought to be abhorred by anyone with a grain of moral consciousness.

[/quote]

Brother, you attempts at trying to convince the crowd that the Talmud doesn't contain any dogma is actually easily refuted by the fact that there is nothing in the Torah or Tanakh that permits man from establishing doctrines contrary to the word of God.

The Talmud is tradition and doctrine based on man's words, not God's.