Christian marriage is man and woman/husband and wife.

[99percentatheism]

There is no secular or theological challenge to be made that a "Christian marriage" isn't immutably a man and woman/husband and wife. Therefore, it should be a criminal act under current hate crimes laws, to accuse a Christian of hate, bigotry, or irrational . . ., if they assert the immutability of the structure of marriage as man and woman/husband and wife.

As Jesus proclaimed it in the Gospels and the writings reaffirm and define it so.

Why would anyone, religious or secularist, NOT support and affirm Christians adhering to the consistent and immutable Biblical teaching that a marriage is a man/husband and woman/wife?

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????

My favorite way to argue this is to ask, "When did you 'decide' to be heterosexual?"

I have asked that on many forums, the homobash crew evade like a gazelle.

The Homobash Crew is nothing compared to the Christian Attack Squad. The Homobash Crew is a propaganda tactic. A label of neologism by the anti-Christian fanatic. Christians have to watch what they do and say or else they get sued and screwed by the forces arrayed against them.

Now when does a person decide to live like a Christian?

That is the real question for this thread.

For a Christian, marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And Homosexual Culture, gay and lesbian and most certainly Bi-Sexual, are choices made that are outside the Christian faith.

Simple.

So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

"Now control?" How pathetically propagandist. How do you control not raping dogs and cats? Are you denying that you have the desire to rape dogs and cats? Are you in denial? When did you stop hating Bible affirming Christians that refuse to live as a pagan or an atheist? Please answer my questions.

Homosexuality is an abomination. I do not have a reprobate mind and God has not given me over to one. In simple terms, I do what is right and I stay away from depravity and those people that not only do these kinds of things but approve of thise that do. Pretty simple math.

And of course fisrt written to Roman (and Greek) Christians. Some things never change.

Do you also feel the urge to rape dogs and cats. Or are you denying that you have ever had homosexual attractions?

Are you NOW claiming that you never chose to be heterosexual?

Why do you continually evade answering this question?

It is a stupid question.

Thank you for asking.

There's your answer.

[99percentatheism]

Danmark

Danmark

This is an important question, particularly when you must note that Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality.

That's a blatant misrepresentation of truth. Jesus dictated that marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And he did that referencing God's pronouncement documented in the Tanakh. In theological and historical context there is no way to qualify homosexual pairings as marriage in any honest way.

Now you stoop to accusing me of lying.

I love interacting with progressives and liberals and standard gay activists. The same play books ad infinitum (that we all must use). Mine comes from The Church and its history. Yours straight out of something else huh? Because there is no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere described as such in the New Testament.

Showcasing your use of blatant misrepresentation of the tuth is not an accusation that you are a liar. Ask a teacher of debate tactics.

I notice with graet fascination that you dodge most of my accuracte repsonse though.

Of course. Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

Please give me the verse where JESUS said anything about homosexuality or retract your accusation.

No. That is not the game we are playing in THIS thread. This thread is about the immutability of a Christian marriage being man and woman/husband and wife.

Stay on track please.

Jesus said men should not divorce their wives. He did not define marriage in that response to the Pharisees' question on divorce.

That is a misrepresentation of the truth.

Now, if you are doing this on purpose to evade admitting what is true, THAT would make you a liar. I have no way to tell what your motive is to evading what is truth in the interaction with Jesus and his Sanhedrin adversaries.

Please retract your accusation that I made "a blatant misrepresentation of truth" or cite the verse where Jesus directly defines marriage as between one male and one female.

Here's my proof:

Matthew 19:

Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.

3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?� 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?

6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.� 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?� 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.�

10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.�

11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.�

I will make my stand before Christ Jesus and/OR against peoplemlike you in any court in your land that this details that a marriage is man and woman/husband and wife.

Can you at least admit that there are valid Christian interpretations of the Bible that you disagree with, or come right out and say it, that YOUR own personal interpretation of scripture is the ONLY reasonable or valid interpretation of scripture.

Marriage is man and woman/husband and wife according to what is written in the New Testament.

Not ever can a liberal or progressive, or any gay theologian prove otherwise through the implementation of what isn't written. Now, if you want to create a new thread that chalenges the clear words about marriage as man and woman in the New Testament, and show clear documentation from scripture that marriage IS same gender couples, then have at it. Seeing to what Jesus said above, all you have is Eunuchs to look towards for your apologia. And I'm sure Gays and Lesbians won't want that huh?

And I am not asking for you to apologize to me. We are not that close to each other. And, according to Jesus, I should keep it that way.

And I will give you no apology (as in "I'm sorry") for my being honest and forthright about the clear words in the Gospel. Obviosuly to Peter, I should be more polite, but I have found that there is no way to be polite to the supporters of the incessant demands that gay culture and secular political power take authority over Christians everywhere on earth.

And I certainly do not play the "agree to disagree" game at every turn. Neither did Jesus, nor any other person in the New Testament towards the issue of who and what will rule the Church.

I urge you to allow Christians to believe and act as Christians should and support their free exercise of life and not join in with the mob that wants to label that and them as hate.

There is no such thing as same gender marriage in Christian truth.

If you have clear evidence from scripture that there is, then please produce it.

[dianaiad]

I love interacting with progressives and liberals and standard gay activists. The same play books ad infinitum (that we all must use). Mine comes from The Church and its history. Yours straight out of something else huh? Because there is no such thing as same gender marriage anywhere described as such in the New Testament.

Showcasing your use of blatant misrepresentation of the tuth is not an accusation that you are a liar. Ask a teacher of debate tactics.

I notice with graet fascination that you dodge most of my accuracte repsonse though.

Of course. Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin.

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[Joab]

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????

I have asked that on many forums, the homobash crew evade like a gazelle.

The Homobash Crew is nothing compared to the Christian Attack Squad. The Homobash Crew is a propaganda tactic. A label of neologism by the anti-Christian fanatic. Christians have to watch what they do and say or else they get sued and screwed by the forces arrayed against them.

Now when does a person decide to live like a Christian?

That is the real question for this thread.

For a Christian, marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And Homosexual Culture, gay and lesbian and most certainly Bi-Sexual, are choices made that are outside the Christian faith.

Simple.

So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

"Now control?" How pathetically propagandist. How do you control not raping dogs and cats? Are you denying that you have the desire to rape dogs and cats? Are you in denial? When did you stop hating Bible affirming Christians that refuse to live as a pagan or an atheist? Please answer my questions.

Homosexuality is an abomination. I do not have a reprobate mind and God has not given me over to one. In simple terms, I do what is right and I stay away from depravity and those people that not only do these kinds of things but approve of thise that do. Pretty simple math.

And of course fisrt written to Roman (and Greek) Christians. Some things never change.

Do you also feel the urge to rape dogs and cats. Or are you denying that you have ever had homosexual attractions?

Are you NOW claiming that you never chose to be heterosexual?

Why do you continually evade answering this question?

It is a stupid question.

Thank you for asking.

There's your answer.

Now I never accused you of being stupid but it is a very simple question, can't you answer it?

[Danmark]

99% you continue to accuse others of 'blatant misrepresentation of the truth, yet claim you are not calling anyone a liar. You cite Matthew 19: . . . . for the proposition that it prohibits homosexuality, yet there's not a word about homosexuality. Not one word. But now you are explicitly calling me 'a liar' because you insist on claiming I am "doing this on purpose to evade admitting what is true."

You are claiming that when the disciples referred to a man and a wife and said 'then it is better not to marry' that, that is a specific prohibition of homosexuality. It is not.

Show me where the NT explicitly prohibits polygamy. If you can not, then you have to admit there is no explicit prohibition of polygamy in the NT and homosexuality by default has the same status as polygamy: neither are explicitly prohibited in the NT, but only in the Gospel according to 99%

More importantly, you refuse to address the many questions that have been put to you about whether or not opposite sex marriage is a choice and whether or not same sex marriage is a choice. As a test of the proposition that it is not a choice but that gender selection is 'just the way god made you' you have been asked if YOU 'made a choice to be heterosexual. You refuse to answer and you refuse to give us the Bible verse in the NT that EXPLICITLY out laws homosexuality.

Instead you accuse people of 'blatantly misrepresenting the truth.' Stick to the argument and avoid these personal attacks.

You also refuse to answer the question of why you have chosen this particular moral issue [which is NOT in the Ten Commandments] to be almost your sole focus on this forum. Why have you singled out this particular 'sin' to harp about ad infinitum?

Why can't you acknowledge that many Christian churches and denominations disagree with you and place love and acceptance ahead of obsessive concentration on a 'sin' that is not even in the Ten Commandments?

[99percentatheism]

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????

The Homobash Crew is nothing compared to the Christian Attack Squad. The Homobash Crew is a propaganda tactic. A label of neologism by the anti-Christian fanatic. Christians have to watch what they do and say or else they get sued and screwed by the forces arrayed against them.

Now when does a person decide to live like a Christian?

That is the real question for this thread.

For a Christian, marriage is man and woman/husband and wife. And Homosexual Culture, gay and lesbian and most certainly Bi-Sexual, are choices made that are outside the Christian faith.

Simple.

So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

"Now control?" How pathetically propagandist. How do you control not raping dogs and cats? Are you denying that you have the desire to rape dogs and cats? Are you in denial? When did you stop hating Bible affirming Christians that refuse to live as a pagan or an atheist? Please answer my questions.

Homosexuality is an abomination. I do not have a reprobate mind and God has not given me over to one. In simple terms, I do what is right and I stay away from depravity and those people that not only do these kinds of things but approve of thise that do. Pretty simple math.

And of course fisrt written to Roman (and Greek) Christians. Some things never change.

Do you also feel the urge to rape dogs and cats. Or are you denying that you have ever had homosexual attractions?

Are you NOW claiming that you never chose to be heterosexual?

Why do you continually evade answering this question?

It is a stupid question.

Thank you for asking.

There's your answer.

Now I never accused you of being stupid but it is a very simple question, can't you answer it?

I do not have to think like you. I do not have to have your worldview or your morality.

Try to understand that.

The answer you demand comes from your world not mine.

[99percentatheism]

99% you continue to accuse others of 'blatant misrepresentation of the truth, yet claim you are not calling anyone a liar. You cite Matthew 19: . . . . for the proposition that it prohibits homosexuality, yet there's not a word about homosexuality. Not one word. But now you are explicitly calling me 'a liar' because you insist on claiming I am "doing this on purpose to evade admitting what is true."

You are claiming that when the disciples referred to a man and a wife and said 'then it is better not to marry' that, that is a specific prohibition of homosexuality. It is not.

Show me where the NT explicitly prohibits polygamy. If you can not, then you have to admit there is no explicit prohibition of polygamy in the NT and homosexuality by default has the same status as polygamy: neither are explicitly prohibited in the NT, but only in the Gospel according to 99%

More importantly, you refuse to address the many questions that have been put to you about whether or not opposite sex marriage is a choice and whether or not same sex marriage is a choice. As a test of the proposition that it is not a choice but that gender selection is 'just the way god made you' you have been asked if YOU 'made a choice to be heterosexual. You refuse to answer and you refuse to give us the Bible verse in the NT that EXPLICITLY out laws homosexuality.

Instead you accuse people of 'blatantly misrepresenting the truth.' Stick to the argument and avoid these personal attacks.

You also refuse to answer the question of why you have chosen this particular moral issue [which is NOT in the Ten Commandments] to be almost your sole focus on this forum. Why have you singled out this particular 'sin' to harp about ad infinitum?

Why can't you acknowledge that many Christian churches and denominations disagree with you and place love and acceptance ahead of obsessive concentration on a 'sin' that is not even in the Ten Commandments?

The haughtiness of such a demand is staggering. You people that are promoting homosexuals and homosexuality in the Church need to show where this is supported in scripture. The wierd stance that a 19th/20th century word "homosexuality" and the demands of 21st century political movement of people that want to force Christians to believe in and celebrate their homosexual desires, as if they had some kind of power and authority over the Church, needs to be plied elsewhere.

I am forced to produce scripture every time I debate some new gay activist here, and the reality of the issue is that it is the activists that have to produce scripture that clearly supports same gender sexuality. You can't do that and you resort to demanding from me what you absolutely cannot produce. Marriage in the New Testament is only man and woman. Homosexuals can have at their ways somewhere else.

This thread is clearly defined in the OP. It only needs one honest reply. Christians that oppose the homosexualizing of Christian marriage are the honest and decent people. same gender marriage is a worldly act and the hostility towards Christians that reject same gender sex acts and LGBT political power testifies to that truth. Secular authority powers and empowers gay activism and the yoking of atheists and other secularists with the LBGT political machine testifies to that as well.

[Joab]

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????
So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

"Now control?" How pathetically propagandist. How do you control not raping dogs and cats? Are you denying that you have the desire to rape dogs and cats? Are you in denial? When did you stop hating Bible affirming Christians that refuse to live as a pagan or an atheist? Please answer my questions.

Homosexuality is an abomination. I do not have a reprobate mind and God has not given me over to one. In simple terms, I do what is right and I stay away from depravity and those people that not only do these kinds of things but approve of thise that do. Pretty simple math.

And of course fisrt written to Roman (and Greek) Christians. Some things never change.

Do you also feel the urge to rape dogs and cats. Or are you denying that you have ever had homosexual attractions?

Are you NOW claiming that you never chose to be heterosexual?

Why do you continually evade answering this question?

It is a stupid question.

Thank you for asking.

There's your answer.

Now I never accused you of being stupid but it is a very simple question, can't you answer it?

I do not have to think like you. I do not have to have your worldview or your morality.

Try to understand that.

The answer you demand comes from your world not mine.

Oh NO it does not.

It is wholly within your worldview.

According to you honosexuality is a choice, which correlates to heterosexuality is a choice.

You have though never chosen your sexuality, thus proving your world view erroneous.

You just can't handle the truth of that situation.

[Angel]

99% you continue to accuse others of 'blatant misrepresentation of the truth, yet claim you are not calling anyone a liar. You cite Matthew 19: . . . . for the proposition that it prohibits homosexuality, yet there's not a word about homosexuality. Not one word. But now you are explicitly calling me 'a liar' because you insist on claiming I am "doing this on purpose to evade admitting what is true."

You are claiming that when the disciples referred to a man and a wife and said 'then it is better not to marry' that, that is a specific prohibition of homosexuality. It is not.

Show me where the NT explicitly prohibits polygamy. If you can not, then you have to admit there is no explicit prohibition of polygamy in the NT and homosexuality by default has the same status as polygamy: neither are explicitly prohibited in the NT, but only in the Gospel according to 99%

I've been debating polygamy with people for over 2 years and not one person has been able to give me a logical explanation that reconciles the practice in the OT with their claims that it is prohibited in the NT. I've narrowed down the main NT objection to Matthew 19 as you refer to in your post. While Jesus did mention marriage consisting of a husband and wife but that was nothing new to the Jews since that was stated the from the time that Genesis 2:24 applies to. And I find it hard to believe that neither God nor the Jews understood what Genesis 2:24 meant, which obviously didn't mean monogamy, since we find God helping out polygamous relationships (Genesis 29:30-33) and GODLY men openly taking multiple wives.

There is that point that Jesus made in Matthew 19:9 about a remarriage (or 2nd marriage) being adultery but he also included UNJUSTIFIED divorce in that formula. This also doesn't prohibit polygamy because polygamy does not have to involve divorce and besides that why would Jesus change the rule on polygamy, which was within God's original plan for marriages (look at how OT defines adultery or what that allows the man to be able to do), while complaining that Moses and others changed God's original marriage plan? Makes no sense for him to prohibit polygamy. In my view, if you refer to the OT MORAL rules (adultery is in the 10 commandments) and combine it with Jesus' teachings, just like Jesus refers to the OT in Matthew 19, then I can reasonably conclude that polygamy without divorce is allowed. Jesus did not say that Moses was the one that allowed polygamy or that Moses defined adultery so Moses did not change these things like he did for divorce.

Sure, some may say it's odd for Jesus to give a standard for adultery just to restrict unjustified divorces and remarriages rather than trying to reinforce monogamy. But then again, it doesn't take banning remarriages to reinforce monogamy since many Westerners divorce (for ANY reason) and start another monogamous marriage and don't count that as adultery. Whatever happened to adultery that involves no divorce or remarriage like when one spouse has sex with a non-spouse while still married? So even in monogamous marriages we find different standards for when sex (or remarriage) is allowed or when it's not. Adultery is just simply about prohibiting (legal or morally) sex in the context of marriage. It would seem that in Matthew 19, Jesus was reinforcing something other than or more than just monogamous marriages. I personally think the context of Matthew 19:9 is clear, especially when you apply the rules of the OT (factor in my previous points), that Jesus was reinforcing something other than monogamy, like LiFETIME (non-divorce) marriages.

Sidenote:
Rick Santorum (start around 3:30 minute mark into video) in his talk on marriage during his recent presidential run. The logic for allowing gay marriage can lead to polygamy in some ways. Polygamy was decriminalized in Utah on Friday (December 13, 2013).

Sources:


http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56894 ... g.html.csp

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wir ... w-21238000

[99percentatheism]

Joab

[Replying to post 1187 by 99percentatheism]

Prove what??????????


So when did you CHOOSE to be heterosexual?

When my Mother and Father and other morally sound role models taught me right from wrong.

Thanks for asking.

And how do you go about now denying your homosexual attractions?

You don't seem to be able to comprehend how weak a demand that is.

Try answering ALL my positions point for point or admit that you have no other response to the truth of biblically sound positions other than subterfuge and pathetic jabs.

There are plenty of other threads for you to look for Christians to bash. I am not one that is afraid of you or your kind at all.

Admit that you have absolutely no Biblical truth to demand that we celebrate homosexuality and move on.

This is simply evasion.

How do you now control your homosexual attractions? Was the question, please answer it.

"Now control?" How pathetically propagandist. How do you control not raping dogs and cats? Are you denying that you have the desire to rape dogs and cats? Are you in denial? When did you stop hating Bible affirming Christians that refuse to live as a pagan or an atheist? Please answer my questions.

Homosexuality is an abomination. I do not have a reprobate mind and God has not given me over to one. In simple terms, I do what is right and I stay away from depravity and those people that not only do these kinds of things but approve of thise that do. Pretty simple math.

And of course fisrt written to Roman (and Greek) Christians. Some things never change.

Do you also feel the urge to rape dogs and cats. Or are you denying that you have ever had homosexual attractions?

Are you NOW claiming that you never chose to be heterosexual?

Why do you continually evade answering this question?

It is a stupid question.

Thank you for asking.

There's your answer.

Now I never accused you of being stupid but it is a very simple question, can't you answer it?

I do not have to think like you. I do not have to have your worldview or your morality.

Try to understand that.

The answer you demand comes from your world not mine.

Oh NO it does not.

It is wholly within your worldview.

According to you honosexuality is a choice, which correlates to heterosexuality is a choice.

You have though never chosen your sexuality, thus proving your world view erroneous.

You just can't handle the truth of that situation.

There is no such thing as a "gay gene." There is not onen single proof of that. And what you are doing is basically telling Christians they must live as pagans: When in Rome . . . oops, now Rome is the entire western worldview. And anyone not acting like the proverbial Roman is . . . well . . . thrown to the lions so to speak. Or as the Sodomites told Lot: "You want to be our judge? We'll treat you worse than them." And we see example after example of gay activists suing Christians and boycotting their businesses and declaring their beliefs not in keeping with "secular" values. And of course the social labeling of Bible believing Christians as hateful bigots is as low as it gets.

Oh well. Jesus advised and predicted that.

You may want to ask a gay activist what "turned out" means in gay culture.

Now, as children, we are taught all sorts of proper behaviors and we are taught what isn't proper behavior. Now of course, if proper role models are not capable of instilling proper values in their children, or someone comes along and "instills" improper attitudes in children, then they'll grow up any which way the wind blows, (no pun intended). Or they will embrace immorality as a worldview and lifestyle choice and call it a civil right. Anyone watching the wsocial battle between liberals/progressives and conservatives should be able to understand that.

Or of course, the only other position you can claim is that some people do not have to repent of their sins as a civil right.

OK. That is your right and anyone else to reject the Gospel. But trust me, you will never be able to force a Christian to embrace the world and its ways, and if you believe the rainbow flag is going to fly over our Churches or homes, you are going to be very frustrated in life, because that is never going to happen. Schism and secular power is the fruit of gay theology. That alone should define this issue in the correct light.

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you.

1 Peter 4

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
- James 1