Hell

[Mick]

I go back and forth between eternal conscious hell and conditional immortality (eventual annihilation). I would like to hear what verse(s) convince you of your belief in this matter. I can see both sides but, of course, both can't be true. What do you say?

I am new here and this is my first post so if you don't hear from me again it means I am lost and trying to find my way around.

God bless,
Mick

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 119 by Mick]

Good comments Mick.

The only thing I see which needs further investigation was your very last comment about only God having immortality.

Immortality is a gift of God to those whom he deems worthy to give it to. It gets confusing because Bibles like the KJV show it as occurring six times in the New Testament but it doesn't. One instance at 1 Timothy 1:17 the Greek word is afthartos which means undecaying as in incorruptible. But we see from 1 Corinthians 15:53 that incorruptibility and immortality are two different things. Immortality is the gift God gives to those who so perfect their inner man that it becomes no longer possible for them to corrupt themselves with sin. So God rewards corruptibility with Immortality.

But at 1 Timothy 6:16 the one who is the only one having that gift of immortality from God, is Jesus. The light Jesus dwells in, "the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see", means Jesus dwells in the presence of God.

Immortality is God's oath of eternal support to the life of his finely finished faithful. Because God always was and always will be, it is not proper to say he needs immortality. He is immorality's source for those who do need it because he always exists. God yet sustains the life of even the immortal. It isn't like they have to worry about God dying and losing that sustaining. So having God's oath to perpetually sustain their lives, they are good to go, having all the immortality they need.

Edit: To think that immortality means that God no longer has to sustain those who receive immortality defies the entire purpose which God is working out, that being that he be all in all.

1 Corinthians 15:28  "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Even to live a short time takes God's support: Acts 17:28  "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."

[Mick]

[Replying to post 119 by Mick]

Good comments Mick.

The only thing I see which needs further investigation was your very last comment about only God having immortality.

Immortality is a gift of God to those whom he deems worthy to give it to. It gets confusing because Bibles like the KJV show it as occurring six times in the New Testament but it doesn't. One instance at 1 Timothy 1:17 the Greek word is afthartos which means undecaying as in incorruptible. But we see from 1 Corinthians 15:53 that incorruptibility and immortality are two different things. Immortality is the gift God gives to those who so perfect their inner man that it becomes no longer possible for them to corrupt themselves with sin. So God rewards corruptibility with Immortality.

But at 1 Timothy 6:16 the one who is the only one having that gift of immortality from God, is Jesus. The light Jesus dwells in, "the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see", means Jesus dwells in the presence of God.

Immortality is God's oath of eternal support to the life of his finely finished faithful. Because God always was and always will be, it is not proper to say he needs immortality. He is immorality's source for those who do need it because he always exists. God yet sustains the life of even the immortal. It isn't like they have to worry about God dying and losing that sustaining. So having God's oath to perpetually sustain their lives, they are good to go, having all the immortality they need.

I can't say that I fully understand what you have said but the end result is immortality for those who persevere as Rom. 2:7 states.

[marco]

[Replying to post 115 by marco]


"Yes, obviously man dies. The Bible suggests there's more to existence than simply losing one's life. It is easiest to suppose we have a soul that survives us."

'And man became a living soul'; anything 'livining' will survive.

Can not agree with - 'we have a soul that survives us'.
We are the soul and as such we survive.

One can accept that matter is never destroyed and so the atoms that make us continue beyond our death. If we are religious then we are concerned not with the toes and fingers that clutch on to existence but with the soul.

Islam insists that the molecules that make us are reconstituted miraculously and enjoy the usual eating, drinking and of course sexual activity in some other address.

The expression "some poor soul ..." means some poor person but I think it is usual to regard the soul as separate from the body. Death is separation of soul from body, in religious conversations.

[marco]

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

And what does it mean to say "the soul dies"? When Satan sinned did he die - or is his eventual end predicted by Ezekiel?

Some believe that the immortal soul can lose its immortality through sin, sometimes known as mortal sin, which kills the soul. Of course the soul's resurrection from sin is always possible. Others maintain that it is the sanctifying life of the soul that dies, rather than the soul itself. Sadly we haven't got the prophet here to shake him and demand he tell us exactly what he thought he meant. All we can do is guess.

[myth-one.com]

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

And what does it mean to say "the soul dies"?

That means that the soul no longer lives.

When Satan sinned did he die - or is his eventual end predicted by Ezekiel?

Satan is an immortal spirit -- not a human or "soul." Thus Satan will never die.

Some believe that the immortal soul can lose its immortality through sin, sometimes known as mortal sin, which kills the soul.

Those do not understand the word "immortal." Immortality cannot be "lost."

Of course the soul's resurrection from sin is always possible.

What does that mean?

Resurrection is from death.

Sadly we haven't got the prophet here to shake him and demand he tell us exactly what he thought he meant. All we can do is guess.

No, all we have are his Godly inspired words -- as follows:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

Immortal: Not subject to death or decay.

So Ezekiel was saying that souls that sin will die.

If souls that sin die, then souls are not immortal.

Pretty simply!

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 119 by Mick]

Good comments Mick.

The only thing I see which needs further investigation was your very last comment about only God having immortality.

Immortality is a gift of God to those whom he deems worthy to give it to. It gets confusing because Bibles like the KJV show it as occurring six times in the New Testament but it doesn't. One instance at 1 Timothy 1:17 the Greek word is afthartos which means undecaying as in incorruptible. But we see from 1 Corinthians 15:53 that incorruptibility and immortality are two different things. Immortality is the gift God gives to those who so perfect their inner man that it becomes no longer possible for them to corrupt themselves with sin. So God rewards corruptibility with Immortality.

But at 1 Timothy 6:16 the one who is the only one having that gift of immortality from God, is Jesus. The light Jesus dwells in, "the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see", means Jesus dwells in the presence of God.

Immortality is God's oath of eternal support to the life of his finely finished faithful. Because God always was and always will be, it is not proper to say he needs immortality. He is immorality's source for those who do need it because he always exists. God yet sustains the life of even the immortal. It isn't like they have to worry about God dying and losing that sustaining. So having God's oath to perpetually sustain their lives, they are good to go, having all the immortality they need.

I can't say that I fully understand what you have said but the end result is immortality for those who persevere as Rom. 2:7 states.

Yes that's right. Immorality is the endless life represented by the Tree of Life in the GOE. From that we can discern much else about it. But, as is the case with so many subjects in this world steeped full of theatrical fantasy, there are many fantastical exaggerations we must sort away and discard if our knowledge would be accurate.

Remember that there was only one tree from which Adam and Eve were commanded not to eat and that was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad (evil).

So does that mean that they ate regularly of the tree of life before they sinned and were barred from it?

If so that would show that even immortality is not something one obtains and then takes for granted.

Edit: Some people's first objection is that Paul stated:  "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." (1 Corinthians 15:46-49)

But what is evident there is that we are not the children of the perfect Adam, but of the corrupted so as to be earthy Adam. That sin corrupted earthy state is what was first for us, and so Paul spoke accurately, but began at the point of the founding of the world, which was after Adam had already sinned so that the whole world was founded in sin.

It would be untrue if Paul had said that we bear the image of the perfect Adam before he corrupted himself with sin. We must try very hard to keep focused on the proper perspectives else it is easy to get lost. We bear the image of the sin corrupted Adam who by sin made himself earthy, animal-like, and subject to being tossed around by demonic forces.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 119 by Mick]

Good comments Mick.

The only thing I see which needs further investigation was your very last comment about only God having immortality.

Immortality is a gift of God to those whom he deems worthy to give it to. It gets confusing because Bibles like the KJV show it as occurring six times in the New Testament but it doesn't. One instance at 1 Timothy 1:17 the Greek word is afthartos which means undecaying as in incorruptible. But we see from 1 Corinthians 15:53 that incorruptibility and immortality are two different things. Immortality is the gift God gives to those who so perfect their inner man that it becomes no longer possible for them to corrupt themselves with sin. So God rewards corruptibility with Immortality.

But at 1 Timothy 6:16 the one who is the only one having that gift of immortality from God, is Jesus. The light Jesus dwells in, "the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see", means Jesus dwells in the presence of God.

Immortality is God's oath of eternal support to the life of his finely finished faithful. Because God always was and always will be, it is not proper to say he needs immortality. He is immorality's source for those who do need it because he always exists. God yet sustains the life of even the immortal. It isn't like they have to worry about God dying and losing that sustaining. So having God's oath to perpetually sustain their lives, they are good to go, having all the immortality they need.

I can't say that I fully understand what you have said but the end result is immortality for those who persevere as Rom. 2:7 states.

Yes that's right. Immorality is the endless life represented by the Tree of Life in the GOE. From that we can discern much else about it. But, as is the case with so many subjects in this world steeped full of theatrical fantasy, there are many fantastical exaggerations we must sort away and discard if our knowledge would be accurate.

Remember that there was only one tree from which Adam and Eve were commanded not to eat and that was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad (evil).

So does that mean that they ate regularly of the tree of life before they sinned and were barred from it?

If so that would show that even immortality is not something one obtains and then takes for granted.

Edit: Some people's first objection is that Paul stated:  "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." (1 Corinthians 15:46-49)

But what is evident there is that we are not the children of the perfect Adam, but of the corrupted so as to be earthy Adam. That sin corrupted earthy state is what was first for us, and so Paul spoke accurately, but began at the point of the founding of the world, which was after Adam had already sinned so that the whole world was founded in sin.

We must try very hard to keep focused on the proper perspectives else it is easy to get lost.

Greetings, BusB!

Once one gains immortality, it can be "taken for granted" (as you say) that it is everlasting!

Even God cannot kill someone that He created as immortal!

Adam & Eve were not born with immortality because God told them they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge.

God's statement would have been incorrect if they were immortal and could not die.

The wages of sin is death, sin is disobeying the commandments of God, and the only commandment they had was not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So they would not die until they sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge.

If one is born mortal, and lives for a trillion, trillion years before dying, then was that person created immortal?

The correct answer is "No"!

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 119 by Mick]

Good comments Mick.

The only thing I see which needs further investigation was your very last comment about only God having immortality.

Immortality is a gift of God to those whom he deems worthy to give it to. It gets confusing because Bibles like the KJV show it as occurring six times in the New Testament but it doesn't. One instance at 1 Timothy 1:17 the Greek word is afthartos which means undecaying as in incorruptible. But we see from 1 Corinthians 15:53 that incorruptibility and immortality are two different things. Immortality is the gift God gives to those who so perfect their inner man that it becomes no longer possible for them to corrupt themselves with sin. So God rewards corruptibility with Immortality.

But at 1 Timothy 6:16 the one who is the only one having that gift of immortality from God, is Jesus. The light Jesus dwells in, "the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see", means Jesus dwells in the presence of God.

Immortality is God's oath of eternal support to the life of his finely finished faithful. Because God always was and always will be, it is not proper to say he needs immortality. He is immorality's source for those who do need it because he always exists. God yet sustains the life of even the immortal. It isn't like they have to worry about God dying and losing that sustaining. So having God's oath to perpetually sustain their lives, they are good to go, having all the immortality they need.

I can't say that I fully understand what you have said but the end result is immortality for those who persevere as Rom. 2:7 states.

Yes that's right. Immorality is the endless life represented by the Tree of Life in the GOE. From that we can discern much else about it. But, as is the case with so many subjects in this world steeped full of theatrical fantasy, there are many fantastical exaggerations we must sort away and discard if our knowledge would be accurate.

Remember that there was only one tree from which Adam and Eve were commanded not to eat and that was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad (evil).

So does that mean that they ate regularly of the tree of life before they sinned and were barred from it?

If so that would show that even immortality is not something one obtains and then takes for granted.

Edit: Some people's first objection is that Paul stated:  "Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly." (1 Corinthians 15:46-49)

But what is evident there is that we are not the children of the perfect Adam, but of the corrupted so as to be earthy Adam. That sin corrupted earthy state is what was first for us, and so Paul spoke accurately, but began at the point of the founding of the world, which was after Adam had already sinned so that the whole world was founded in sin.

We must try very hard to keep focused on the proper perspectives else it is easy to get lost.

Greetings, BusB!

Once one gains immortality, it can be "taken for granted" (as you say) that it is everlasting!

Even God cannot kill someone that He created as immortal!

Adam & Eve were not born with immortality because God told them they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge.

God's statement would have been incorrect if they were immortal and could not die.

The wages of sin is death, sin is disobeying the commandments of God, and the only commandment they had was not to eat from the tree of knowledge.

So they would not die until they sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge.

If one is born mortal, and lives for a trillion, trillion years before dying, then was that person created immortal?

The correct answer is "No"!

But you are using your own speculation with absolutely no scriptural support for what you say.

Show me the scriptures which you feel support what you say.

Then we can discuss it.

[myth-one.com]

Greetings again, BusB!

Once one gains immortality, it can be "taken for granted" (as you say) that it is everlasting!

Even God cannot kill someone that He created as immortal!

The above statements result from understanding the definition of "immortal":

Immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.
===========================================================================

Adam & Eve were not born with immortality because God told them they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge:

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

God's statement would have been incorrect if they were immortal and could not die.

The wages of sin is death, sin is disobeying the commandments of God, and the only commandment they had was not to eat from the tree of knowledge

...the wages of sin is death;             (Romans 6:23)

For sin is the transgression of the law.            (I John 3:4)

And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them. (Exodus 24:12)

So they would not die until they sinned by eating from the tree of knowledge.

If one is born mortal, and lives for a trillion, trillion years before dying, then was that person created immortal?

The correct answer is "No"!

Once again, this is based on the definition of "immortal."

OK, let's discuss it.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 128 by myth-one.com]

You say, “The above statements result from understanding the definition of "immortal": Immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.�

And you say, “Even God cannot kill someone that He created as immortal.�

Now show me even just one scripture which speaks of being “created immortal.� And show me more than one if you can. You won’t be able to find any such scripture in the Bible.

The reason you won’t be able to find any such scripture in the Bible is because immortality is nothing more than God’s oath to continue sustaining the receiver’s life.

Adam and Eve merely did not have that oath of permanence from God as yet. So their having to eat regularly of that Tree of Life reflected that God’s sustaining life to them was a privilege they need to be mindful to prove worthy of.


Similarly, there are things we must do if our salvation would be permanently realized:

Proverbs 3: 13-18
13 Happy is the man that has found (godly) wisdom, and the man that gets discernment (by it),
14 for having it as gain is better than having silver as gain and having it as produce than gold itself.
15 It is more precious than corals, and all other delights of yours cannot be made equal to it.
16 Length of days<<(immortality) is in its right hand; in its left hand there are riches and glory.
17 Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all its roadways are peace.
18 [It is a tree of Life] to those taking hold of it, and those keeping fast hold of it are to be called happy.

You will find these fantastical views such as you express in certain non-biblical works. And you will find those fantastical views in the fantasy world of video games and fictional movies. I don’t feed on those things and so I don’t see illusions of those fantastical ideas in the Bible.

Sadly, man’s fantasies are what most blinds him to being able to see what is really in the Bible. Men’s minds have been tainted by their constant feeding on fantasy so that they have lost their ability to stay focused in reality. And the sad part is that to them such thinking seems so normal they believe they are the realistic ones.