Using field research (Meditation) to discover Consciousness

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Using field research (Meditation) to discover Consciousness

Post #1

Post by Swami »

On Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:39 pm, TSGracchus stated the following:
TSGracchus wrote:So you think that flipping coins and checking the I Ching, or laying out Tarot cards, or astrology will substitute for science?

Meditation can calm the mind. But it has not produced scientific discovery.

But, by all means, ignore or discard the findings of "Western science" and consult the lint in your navel for answers.
The statements above clearly show a lack of knowledge and experience with meditative practices. It also shows intolerance. As I proposed before, scientists can discover the origins and nature of consciousness and the Universe using field research. You have no evidence that my approach would not work because you lack the experience that I have with meditation. Your proposal is for science to continue in its failed reductionistic and materialistic approach. Centuries have passed and reducto-materialism has still left mankind with the same important questions that we've been asking since our beginning.

""insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result."


Let us address some of your claims and show why science needs to adopt meditation as a means to knowledge.

Why should scientist use meditation?
You stated that meditation "only calms the mind" but you're incorrect. Science shows that meditation leads to higher states of consciousness, changes in brain structure, and to emotional well-being. Science needs to be able to deal with consciousness directly instead of relying on "correlates" of consciousness. Meditation just so happens to be an effective first-person approach to deal with consciousness directly. No one has had more first-person experience with all levels of consciousness than the Eastern religionists - some 2,500 years worth of experience. It's only reasonable that scientists collaborate with Buddhists, Hindus, etc. Many are starting to do just that so that should tell you something!!

How does meditation lead to knowledge?
The simple answer is that meditation leads to a state and experience of pure consciousness. In that state, you can explore and experience how consciousness in its most pure form works which of course opens the door to direct "knowledge".
Locke and Hume, believed that we could gain knowledge about the mind through a careful examination of inner experience. If it is true that meditation makes
available certain kinds of inner experience that would not otherwise be possible, then those forms of experience might possibly result in new knowledge.

At the same time, many contemporary researchers in psychology may object to relying on a method of introspection to learn about the mind. In the past, philosophers and armchair psychologists, relying on introspection, have arrived at widely varying conclusions; they have also missed basic facts about how minds work that can be established by simple experiments. Psychologists might argue that introspection simply allows people to project their hypotheses and presuppositions onto their experience and does not help us learn new truths about how the mind works. Only careful experiments, carried out with scienti�c rigor and from a third-person point of view, can reveal such truths.

Buddhists could reply by drawing a distinction between trained and untrained introspection. In most people, they could argue, the faculty of attention is weak and undeveloped, and, as a result, attempts at serious introspection will typically be overwhelmed by various forms of distraction. But those who, through meditation practice, reduce the intensity and frequency of distractions and gradually develop their capacity for attention are eventually able to look at mental phenomena and see them as they actually are.
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Article quotations taken from Dr. Charles Goodman article, Buddhist Meditation Theory and Practice. http://www.academia.edu/36937894/Buddhi ... actice.pdf
You don't have to download anything. Just scroll down and the article will start showing up.
Last edited by Swami on Sun Aug 26, 2018 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post #111

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 109 by Razorsedge]

Sir, everything you have said about meditation and consciousness reflects your arrogance and ignorance.


So you interpret anyone who challenges your own views as being arrogant and ignorant, and that is supposed to represent tolerance? I'm simply claiming that there is no hard scientific evidence for your view that consciousness is something special and not the manifestation of brain activity. Can you reference something to dispute that?

I don't doubt that there are credentialed scientists you could list who agree with you, just like there are plenty of examples of such scientists who believe in creationism, or in a young earth, or a flat earth, etc. But that is not evidence for the truth (or not) of any claim. You are arguing from a philosophical perspective and not an empirical science perspective, apparently because meditation does something for your personally. The fact that I don't believe there is any evidence to support the view that consciousness is anything special and not an emergent property of the brain doesn't make be arrogant or ignorant ... it makes me challenge someone with your views to provide some scientific evidence for it. So far you haven't done that.
All of the Universe is just a manifestation of consciousness.


Based on what? How is this claim anything more than your personal opinion? We know a great deal about how brain evolved and can see the progression in size, structure, complexity, capability, etc. in the existing animal kingdom, and in interpretations of the fossil and archeological records. This cumulative evidence suggests that consciousness is an emergent property of a brain. We are capable of abstract thought, including having ideas that consciousness is some special, magical thing. But to make a scientific case for that there has to be some empirical evidence, and you haven't provided any references to debate the merits of such evidence. It appears you only want to offer your opinion on the subject of meditation, and complain that "western" science is flawed (or possibly arrogant and ignorant) because it doesn't agree with your view.
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Post #112

Post by John Human »

DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 109 by Razorsedge]

Sir, everything you have said about meditation and consciousness reflects your arrogance and ignorance.


So you interpret anyone who challenges your own views as being arrogant and ignorant, and that is supposed to represent tolerance?
I think it's clear that Razorsedge was actually challenging YOUR view as arrogant and ignorant.
I'm simply claiming that there is no hard scientific evidence for your view that consciousness is something special and not the manifestation of brain activity.


Your phrase "hard scientific evidence" brings up the question of various types of evidence. Obviously, when we discuss subjects that go beyond the realm of the material and the measurable, "hard scientific evidence" must yield to "try it and see for yourself."

Beyond that, I think it's safe to say that there is no evidence, scientific or otherwise, supporting your dubious conclusion that consciousness is nothing more than an epiphenomenon of brain activity, and there is certainly a range of claimed experiences that clearly contradict that dubious supposition. For example, in the "Random Ramblings" sub-forum, I have copied recordings of communications from what I perceive to be ancestors, and also what I perceive to be demons. (Communicating with plants, and plant intelligence in general, is yet another topic where cumulative personal experience erodes one's capacity to embrace the reductionist-materialist supposition that consciousness is nothing more than a manifestation of chemical and electrical changes in the brain.)
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

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-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

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Post #113

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 111 by John Human]
I think it's safe to say that there is no evidence, scientific or otherwise, supporting your dubious conclusion that consciousness is nothing more than an epiphenomenon of brain activity...


That is the simplest explanation that is consistent with observations. No brain, no consciousness. Brain intact, consciousness intact. I know that correlation isn't always causation, but in this case there is plenty of evidence, via simple observation, that if a human is killed and their brain ceases to function, their consciousness disappears at exactly the same time (or at least any communication or other activity by the dead person beyond physical decay of the corpse stops).
For example, in the "Random Ramblings" sub-forum, I have copied recordings of communications from what I perceive to be ancestors, and also what I perceive to be demons. (Communicating with plants, and plant intelligence in general, is yet another topic where cumulative personal experience erodes one's capacity to embrace the reductionist-materialist supposition that consciousness is nothing more than a manifestation of chemical and electrical changes in the brain.)


Communicating with plants? Plant intelligence? Communicating with dead people? Demons? Well ... at least you posted it in the right section!
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

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Post #114

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 111 by John Human]
Beyond that, I think it's safe to say that there is no evidence, scientific or otherwise, supporting your dubious conclusion that consciousness is nothing more than an epiphenomenon of brain activity, and there is certainly a range of claimed experiences that clearly contradict that dubious supposition. For example, in the "Random Ramblings" sub-forum, I have copied recordings of communications from what I perceive to be ancestors, and also what I perceive to be demons.
Claims and perceptions? Not much of a hook to hang your hat on. Meditation can simply free the mind to indulge in imagination and fantasy rather than access some otherwise unknown aspect of existence.
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Post #115

Post by Swami »

DrNoGods wrote: I'm simply claiming that there is no hard scientific evidence for your view that consciousness is something special and not the manifestation of brain activity. Can you reference something to dispute that?
DrNoGods wrote: That is the simplest explanation that is consistent with observations. No brain, no consciousness. Brain intact, consciousness intact. I know that correlation isn't always causation, but in this case there is plenty of evidence, via simple observation, that if a human is killed and their brain ceases to function, their consciousness disappears at exactly the same time (or at least any communication or other activity by the dead person beyond physical decay of the corpse stops).
Scientists can not directly observe consciousness. The brain and its processes are simply an indirect way of measuring consciousness. Therefore, no brain = no way of measuring consciousness (or no way of measuring it given our current methods).
DrNoGods wrote: Meditation is basically interacting with yourself (your brain via its functions) so I don't see how you'd expect to learn anything from such a process unless you are hooked up to the latest brain wave and other physical monitoring systems which might shed some light on what is happening with neuron interactions, memory, etc. during the process. Meditation seems to work for many people to calm them down, to cope with problems, or similar things. But that does not preclude it being anything more than you communicating with yourself.
Minimizing 'meditation' to just being about "relaxation" is simply Western ignorance. Just because the West uses it for only that doesn't mean it doesn't have other uses. In the East, meditation is also used as a tool for insight (knowledge) and to access higher states of consciousness. You and brunumb are not willing to experience this which is why I believe you two are not really looking for proof.

I've already explained that understanding all of Hinduism is not even required for meditation. I've only read parts of the Vedas and select passages from other Indian text. The best resource that explains the philosophy and practice behind the type of meditation I'm advocating for is the Yoga SÅ«tras of Patanjali - a foundational text on yoga philosophy. Read that and a good commentary on it.

DrNoGods wrote:
All of the Universe is just a manifestation of consciousness.

Based on what? How is this claim anything more than your personal opinion? We know a great deal about how brain evolved and can see the progression in size, structure, complexity, capability, etc. in the existing animal kingdom, and in interpretations of the fossil and archeological records. This cumulative evidence suggests that consciousness is an emergent property of a brain. We are capable of abstract thought, including having ideas that consciousness is some special, magical thing. But to make a scientific case for that there has to be some empirical evidence, and you haven't provided any references to debate the merits of such evidence. It appears you only want to offer your opinion on the subject of meditation, and complain that "western" science is flawed (or possibly arrogant and ignorant) because it doesn't agree with your view.
Again, this is a bad start. You're giving me your views from your science and I'm offering my views from my science. The bridge that I'm offering to you is not for you to accept my views but rather that you accept my "method". And then you can use it to confirm everything that I have claimed here including the claim that "everything is a manifestation of consciousness". In fact, for you to engage in meditation would be considered 'field research' under your science which is why I bring it up in the title.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_research
Field research, field studies, or fieldwork is the collection of raw data outside a laboratory, library, or workplace setting.

Field research involves a range of well-defined, although variable, methods: informal interviews, direct observation, participation in the life of the group, collective discussions, analyses of personal documents produced within the group, self-analysis, results from activities undertaken off- or on-line, and life-histories. Although the method generally is characterized as qualitative research, it may (and often does) include quantitative dimensions.
"Debating" is not "participating" (as in engaging in meditation yourself).

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Post #116

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Much of my knowledge of consciousness comes from a combination of transcendental experiences and out-of-body experiences. All of these experiences were initiated through some form of meditation.

Using a transcendental meditation technique, I was able to isolate consciousness by itself. My experience (or observation) during this state shows that consciousness can exist separate from the mind. I also perceived no form, no sense of time, and I was ever-expanding (boundless). This is the true nature of consciousness - boundless, formless, pure awareness.

When I was able to induce OBEs during meditation, that revealed a wider range of perceptions. Not only could I perceive without my bodily senses (sight and sound) but I could also travel to more subtle levels of reality where I discovered certain laws (how phenomena worked through repeated experimentation). When I realized that things can materialize based off of my intentions and thoughts or beliefs, this is the closest I've come to realizing that reality was simply a manifestation of consciousness. This can all be traced back to a Universal consciousness which is where everything starts and binds together. It is universal in that it is the substratum for everything that exists, and that includes the limited expression of my individual consciousness.

Everything I've explained can be proven if you're willing to do field research.

For those who love science:
Future directions in meditation research: Recommendations for expanding the field of contemplative science

PLoS One. 2018; 13(11): e0205740.

Published online 2018 Nov 7. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0205740

The science of meditation has grown tremendously in the last two decades. Most studies have focused on evaluating the clinical effectiveness of mindfulness-based interventions, neural and other physiological correlates of meditation, and individual cognitive and emotional aspects of meditation. Far less research has been conducted on more challenging domains to measure, such as group and relational, transpersonal and mystical, and difficult aspects of meditation; anomalous or extraordinary phenomena related to meditation; and post-conventional stages of development associated with meditation.

Numerous non-ordinary experiences during or as a result of meditation are described in the texts and teachings of contemplative traditions [34–41]. Some examples of these include: “awakening� or “enlightenment� experiences marked by profound alterations of self-identity, self-narrative and clarity of perception; transcendence of the physical body or out of body experiences; experiences of oneness and interconnectedness; spiritual transmission from teacher to student; dyadic, group, and relational experiences; experiences of non-physical energies (e.g. chi, qi, shakti); mind to mind communication, precognition, veridical perceptions at a distance or extra-sensory perception; past-life recall and reincarnation experiences; synchronicities; experiences of God, deities, and other non-physical entities; and difficult stages of meditation, and periods of disorientation and depersonalization.

With some notable exceptions, most empirical research on meditation does not address these kinds of experiences as components, outcomes, or mechanisms of meditation, in part because these non-ordinary states can be difficult to capture and investigate in laboratory settings. However, anecdotal, survey, and interview data indicate that these aspects of meditation may be more prevalent than is commonly recognized, could represent important mediators or mechanisms by which meditation leads to beneficial cognitive, behavioral, and physiological outcomes [42–44], and could themselves be salient outcomes of meditation practice.

In addition, sacred texts in contemplative traditions such as Buddhism and Hinduism claim that meditative practices can result in states of mind that have not been adequately explored or differentiated phenomenologically in the scientific literature. For example, the yoga tradition describes multiple kinds of samadhi (states of intense concentration, absorption, calm and equanimity), differentiating between for example, nirvikalpa samadhi of pure awareness, and sahaj samadhi in which awareness and daily experience both co-arise but are perceived as inseparable, nondual, or coessential [99]. Investigation of these states may offer us new insights about cognition and perception that can only be reached through expanding contemplative science.

Extraordinary experiences were measured by items newly developed for this study by the working group, arranged into categories including 1) extraordinary physical experiences, 2) spatial-temporal, 3) cognitive-psychological, 4) relational, and 5) extended phenomena. Categories were not combined into subscales, but were used for assessing prevalence of each individual item, and therefore no factor analysis or internal consistency analysis was performed.

The frequencies of these experiences are displayed in Table 3. Altered breathing and sensations in the body that were not apparently caused by the physical environment (such as heat, cold, pressure, tingling or other body sensations) were the most common physical experiences, with 88% and 85% of participants respectively reporting experiencing these at least once, and of those 75% and 73% of people reporting that they had experienced this many times or almost always. Altered sense of time and increased synchronicities were the most common spatio-temporal experiences, with 86% and 82% respectively reporting these and of those, 62% and 65% experiencing them many times or almost always. Altered awareness and aha! moments were the most common cognitive/psychological experiences, with 91% and 89% respectively reporting these experiences, and of those 67% and 62% many times or almost always. Sensing the collective energy of the group was the most common relational experience, reported at least once by 76% of respondents, and many times or always by 47%. Clairvoyance and/or telepathy was the most common extended perception experience, with 56% reporting experiencing this at least once and 30% many times or always The least common, but still quite prevalent, experiences overall were external physical phenomena (objects moving or changing without apparent physical cause) (31%), and disturbing emotions (32%).

Increased scientific investigations of these experiences may be important to understanding the full range of human potential and well-being.
Article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6221271/

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messages from demons and ancestorts

Post #117

Post by John Human »

DrNoGods wrote: [Replying to post 111 by John Human]
For example, in the "Random Ramblings" sub-forum, I have copied recordings of communications from what I perceive to be ancestors, and also what I perceive to be demons. (Communicating with plants, and plant intelligence in general, is yet another topic where cumulative personal experience erodes one's capacity to embrace the reductionist-materialist supposition that consciousness is nothing more than a manifestation of chemical and electrical changes in the brain.)


Communicating with plants? Plant intelligence? Communicating with dead people? Demons? Well ... at least you posted it in the right section!
Actually, I presented Ancient Demon's "eyewitness" account of the revival (not resurrection) of Jesus Christ in the "Revival (not resurrection) of Jesus Christ" thread at viewtopic.php?t=35555&start=0

And I discussed communicating with ancestors in the "Does the soul split in two just after death?" thread: viewtopic.php?t=35501
I think it's safe to say that there is no evidence, scientific or otherwise, supporting your dubious conclusion that consciousness is nothing more than an epiphenomenon of brain activity...


That is the simplest explanation that is consistent with observations. No brain, no consciousness. Brain intact, consciousness intact. I know that correlation isn't always causation, but in this case there is plenty of evidence, via simple observation, that if a human is killed and their brain ceases to function, their consciousness disappears at exactly the same time (or at least any communication or other activity by the dead person beyond physical decay of the corpse stops).
Your claim that consciousness disappears would seem to be contradicted (as far as I am concerned) by my communication with my father a few months ago, three days AFTER he died. I posted that quote on the "Does the split in two just after death?" thread -- see the link above.
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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Post #118

Post by Swami »

The discussion here is not about placing Eastern science above Western science. I don't believe Eastern thinkers know all there is to know about consciousness, but I fully accept that they are more advanced in knowing and experimenting with the different levels of consciousness.

I would hope that Western scientists adopt meditation as a scientific method and apply it to consciousness. Perhaps then they will be able to better explain or further the observations of Eastern thinkers.

2013 Summit between Buddhists and Western scientists
[youtube][/youtube]
2:15 to 56:00 Western perspective of consciousness
56:00 to end Buddhist perspective on mind and consciousness

………………………...

[youtube][/youtube]
58:25 to end Consciousness is primary to brain

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Post #119

Post by Swami »

The philosopher Immanuel Kant talks about the 'noumenal world' vs. the phenomenal world. Here are some points I've gathered from Kant's view:

Noumenal world
- The world as it really is - this constitutes reality
- We are not built to know it

Phenomenal world
- The world as it appears to our us through our senses.
- The world we see or experience around us is a world that our own mind constructs.
- All knowledge is derived from experience.

The Eastern equivalent of 'noumenal world' is "ultimate reality" (or Brahman).

I question if Kant had any knowledge of Eastern practices. If the "mind" is the filter that prevents us from perceiving the real world as it is, then wouldn't it make sense that meditation (which isolates consciousness from mind) would lead to experience of ultimate reality?

First you perceive or experience consciousness as it really is.
The Transcendental Meditation technique is an effortless procedure for allowing the excitations of the mind to gradually settle down until the least excited state of mind is reached. This is a state of inner wakefulness with no object of thought or perception, just pure consciousness aware of its own unbounded nature. It is wholeness, aware of itself, devoid of differences, beyond the division of subject and object‚ Transcendental Consciousness.
source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... ajklalr5kb

Experiencing in this state will lead to the realization that everything is just manifestation of a Universal consciousness.
It has been revealed to me that there exists an Ocean of Consciousness without limit. From It come all things of the relative plane, and in It they merge again. These waves arising from the Great Ocean merge again in the Great Ocean. I have clearly perceived all these things.
Source: The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna

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Post #120

Post by Swami »

Time and time again I am told that Western scientist know about the Eastern approaches and have found no value to them. I am very skeptical of this claim. My skepticism comes from talking to many in the United States and reading books from some of the leading neuroscientists. They don't really understand consciousness nor meditation - at best a very superficial understanding.

IN regards to meditation:
Many in the West have tried meditation but I'm not sure if they've done so in the context of Eastern practices. When someone tells me that yoga and meditation is only for "relaxation" or to "calm the mind" this is a clear sign that they don't really understand the Eastern context for the practice.

In the yogic tradition, meditation is about revealing the true nature of things by becoming one with them. You do this through intense meditation, almost becoming mentally absorbed into what you're focusing on. I believe that members like Divine Insight, a Buddhist and agnostic, have at least applied this type of meditation to focusing on "self" because he's talked about experiencing himself feeling as big as the Universe (part of the nature of consciousness). But focusing on other "objects" in the same way (whether it be another person, the Sun, something divine) will lead to a wealth of insight and experience of how reality really is. Lets use focus on another person as an example and the insight that it reveals.
Classic yoga texts, such as Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, written about two thousand years ago, tell us in matter- of-fact terms that if you sit quietly, pay close attention to your mind, and practice this diligently, then you will gain supernormal powers. These advanced capacities, known as siddhis, are not regarded as magical; they’re ordinary capacities that everyone possesses. We’re just too distracted most of the time to be able to access them reliably.

The sage Patanjali also tells us that these siddhis can be attained by ingesting certain drugs, through contemplation of sacred symbols, repetition of mantras, ascetic practices, or through a fortuitous birth. In the yogic tradition, powers gained through use of mantras, amulets, or drugs are not regarded with as much respect, or considered to be as permanent, as those earned through dedicated meditative practice.

Patanjali writes that the siddhis are attained after mastery of the last three steps of the eightfold path: the ability to simultaneously sustain concentration, meditation, and samadhi at will. “Sustained� in this context means holding a highly focused, unwavering, deeply absorbed meditative state—as opposed to obsessive mental chattering— indefinitely, if one so wishes.

Considering that beginning meditators may be satisfied to hold an unwavering focus for ten seconds, being able to do this for fifteen minutes at a time may seem incredible; for hours without end is practically incomprehensible. But that’s the level of mental control said to be required to exercise and attain the siddhis on demand.

Depending on the nature of the object one is absorbed into during samyama, different siddhis are said to arise. This is not due to magical incantations, but a natural consequence of merging with the object of focus. For example, if one focuses on another person, in samyama one becomes the other person. The siddhi that arises is what we would call telepathy.

In the science fiction television series Star Trek, this practice was depicted as the Vulcan mind meld. Telepathy occurs in the mind meld (and in the siddhis) not because thoughts are transmitted from another person’s mind to yours, but because while in samyama your mind breaks through the illusion of separation that tricks you into believing that you and the other person are different. In deep states of the absorptive mind meld, whether yogic or Vulcan, holistic reality reigns.

You are no longer two people, but one and the same. The genius of Star Trek is that it is the dispassionate, hyper rational, deeply focused Vulcans who can achieve this state, and not the attention-deficit, emotionally uncontrolled humans.
All excerpts from the book Supernormal: Science, Yoga, and the Evidence for Extraordinary Psychic Abilities by Dr. Dean Radin (Pg. 8, 9, and 110)

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